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Thread: Convince me that RIC's really matter

  1. #1
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    Default Convince me that RIC's really matter

    I fully accept it's frustrating not to get RICs, but as far as I can see, it doesn't make a significant difference. I know "significant" is subjective, so let's use exact numbers.

    First, let's start with the fact that RIC's are only used to upgrade Myrmydon gear. My main is a cleric and I have 6 pieces of Myr gear and warlord essences, I even have 3 RIC's that I haven't even used yet. Using the helm as an example, the new upgrade increase from Myr to Relic is listed below and followed by the total stat increase.

    Wisdom: 8. Total 1753 to 1761. This is an increase of .0046
    Int: 5. Total 861 to 866. This is an increase of .0058
    End: 11. Total 2167 to 2178. This is an increase of .0051
    Sp: 4. Total 3917 to 3921. This is an increase of .0010
    Vengeance: 6. Total 1371 to 1377. This is an increase of .0044.

    So, just looking at the stats, the increase is a tiny, almost unnoticeable fraction. How much more healing/DPS are you really doing with these totals?

    Now, I accept that a weapon has a larger impact for DPS classes, but you can obtain a guaranteed DIC quite easily by the time you get to Prestige 90 (presuming you never get lucky on a RIC Roll). There are several strategies for min/maxing warlord marks to buy crates and increase depleted infinity shards, so no need to discuss those in detail here.

    So, RIC's essentially give you minor stat increase which is also obtained via other methods. For example, you can focus on:

    1. Planar Experience
    2. Runes
    3. Notoriety runes
    4. Consumables

    For the amount of time folks invest trying to get a RIC and all the upgrade cells also needed, I bet you could obtain even more planar experience to offset the stat increase of the Relic gear. Or at a very minimum, diminish the impact of a RIC. And I see folks running around with low grade runes or even without certain runes altogether because of insufficient notoriety. All which could be easily obtained if you spent the time focusing on those instead of a RIC. But, accepting someone doesn't want to pursue these other options for increasing their stats, the Relic increase is still very marginal overall.

    Again, I fully understand the disappointment and frustration which comes with bad RNG, but convince me that it really makes a difference?

  2. #2
    Ascendant Pesmergia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdain View Post
    I fully accept it's frustrating not to get RICs, but as far as I can see, it doesn't make a significant difference. I know "significant" is subjective, so let's use exact numbers.

    First, let's start with the fact that RIC's are only used to upgrade Myrmydon gear. My main is a cleric and I have 6 pieces of Myr gear and warlord essences, I even have 3 RIC's that I haven't even used yet. Using the helm as an example, the new upgrade increase from Myr to Relic is listed below and followed by the total stat increase.

    Wisdom: 8. Total 1753 to 1761. This is an increase of .0046
    Int: 5. Total 861 to 866. This is an increase of .0058
    End: 11. Total 2167 to 2178. This is an increase of .0051
    Sp: 4. Total 3917 to 3921. This is an increase of .0010
    Vengeance: 6. Total 1371 to 1377. This is an increase of .0044.

    So, just looking at the stats, the increase is a tiny, almost unnoticeable fraction. How much more healing/DPS are you really doing with these totals?

    Now, I accept that a weapon has a larger impact for DPS classes, but you can obtain a guaranteed DIC quite easily by the time you get to Prestige 90 (presuming you never get lucky on a RIC Roll). There are several strategies for min/maxing warlord marks to buy crates and increase depleted infinity shards, so no need to discuss those in detail here.

    So, RIC's essentially give you minor stat increase which is also obtained via other methods. For example, you can focus on:

    1. Planar Experience
    2. Runes
    3. Notoriety runes
    4. Consumables

    For the amount of time folks invest trying to get a RIC and all the upgrade cells also needed, I bet you could obtain even more planar experience to offset the stat increase of the Relic gear. Or at a very minimum, diminish the impact of a RIC. And I see folks running around with low grade runes or even without certain runes altogether because of insufficient notoriety. All which could be easily obtained if you spent the time focusing on those instead of a RIC. But, accepting someone doesn't want to pursue these other options for increasing their stats, the Relic increase is still very marginal overall.

    Again, I fully understand the disappointment and frustration which comes with bad RNG, but convince me that it really makes a difference?
    It doesn't much at all. But those shiny oranges bro!
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  3. #3
    Fik
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    Ya it seems kinda pointless. The runes are where it's at. 71 crit power + 30 stat

    /drool

  4. #4
    Plane Walker
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    It's the same with every tier of gear, the upgrade for 1 item isn't much but it adds up if you have the full set. The only people that have close to a complete set are scripted dragon slayers and zerglings from cq.
    Last edited by Honeymoon; 04-29-2014 at 07:56 AM.
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  5. #5
    Champion of Telara Aveleys's Avatar
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    They don't matter.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honeymoon View Post
    It's the same with every tier of gear, the upgrade for 1 item isn't much but it adds up if you have the full set. The only people that have close to a complete set are scripted dragon slayers and zerglings from cq.
    In other words those with a modified dice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honeymoon View Post
    It's the same with every tier of gear, the upgrade for 1 item isn't much but it adds up if you have the full set. The only people that have close to a complete set are scripted dragon slayers and zerglings from cq.
    I agree that small advantages can accumulate, but even taking this to the extreme, let's compare numbers. Using napkin math to compare those with full Relic vs. full Myrmidon gear gives full relic about 5-6% higher stats (with no change to valor). This is a moderate difference, but it's using the very extreme example (as you point out) of 0 RICs vs 11 RICS. I believe a more accurate comparison would use 0 vs 3 RICs leading to a 2% difference in stats. And this is comparing a 1v1 situation which is rare in WF's and CQ, and skill level will have far more impact than a 2% stat difference.

    Just seems to me RIC's add a marginal increase at best and all the concern about whether you have them or not is misplaced. It seems that folks are focused on what they don't have rather than the reality that they make very little difference.

    But as Pesmergia put it, they are "shiny orange" and we want them, even if they don't make much difference.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pesmergia View Post
    It doesn't much at all. But those shiny oranges bro!
    Orange like the carrots they are....
    "There are other aspects of the game that we want you to engage in."

    ~Daglar

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdain View Post
    I agree that small advantages can accumulate, but even taking this to the extreme, let's compare numbers. Using napkin math to compare those with full Relic vs. full Myrmidon gear gives full relic about 5-6% higher stats (with no change to valor). This is a moderate difference, but it's using the very extreme example (as you point out) of 0 RICs vs 11 RICS. I believe a more accurate comparison would use 0 vs 3 RICs leading to a 2% difference in stats. And this is comparing a 1v1 situation which is rare in WF's and CQ, and skill level will have far more impact than a 2% stat difference.

    Just seems to me RIC's add a marginal increase at best and all the concern about whether you have them or not is misplaced. It seems that folks are focused on what they don't have rather than the reality that they make very little difference.

    But as Pesmergia put it, they are "shiny orange" and we want them, even if they don't make much difference.
    The difference increases with the more players who have relic on the team. Burst becomes more potent and actually the ones who benefit the absolute most from it are healers because the way HP pool inflates TTK and increases effective HP. 1 or 2 global cd for a dps is not much but for a healer or someone being healed that can turn to 10-20gcd with burst to full health over time. It becomes obnoxious the more players that have the relic gear.

    The game is only balanced because Trion uses noobs to balance the game. If players were equally geared class balance would be far out of line. All they care about is having higher geared players farm low gear and mixing those players together with better geared players so they can either get carried or farmed out. Pretty stupid if you ask me but it is what it is. And yet they sit with heels digged in wondering why player retention sucks! Go figure.
    Last edited by Planetx; 04-29-2014 at 10:19 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Planetx View Post
    The difference increases with the more players who have relic on the team. Burst becomes more potent and actually the ones who benefit the absolute most from it are healers because the way HP pool inflates TTK and increases effective HP. 1 or 2 global cd for a dps is not much but for a healer or someone being healed that can turn to 10-20gcd with burst to full health over time. It becomes obnoxious the more players that have the relic gear.

    The game is only balanced because Trion uses noobs to balance the game. If players were equally geared class balance would be far out of line. All they care about is having higher geared players farm low gear and mixing those players together with better geared players so they can either get carried or farmed out. Pretty stupid if you ask me but it is what it is. And yet they sit with heels digged in wondering why player retention sucks! Go figure.
    I can see how that 2-3% difference in gear stats can accumulate if there is a team with 15 folks who all have 3% better gear than the other team. But does that happen very often? What would have greater impact is if those 15 are on voice chat and focus firing.

    I can also see your point that we would have less disparity if gear were 100% normalized, but that's not the RIFT model, and it's pretty common for an MMO to have gear progression. What I like about RIFT a great deal is that the gear progression isn't that dramatic and those who pay for progression or even have better luck, don't out gear me sufficiently to make much of a difference.

    I just don't share your concerns overall.

  11. #11
    Ascendant SprawlnBrawl's Avatar
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    no they dont matter, and i have noticed zero difference as someone with 0 RIC. Only time they will truly matter is in 5v5 equal skill/comp or 1v1 equal skill/comp, which happen rare, if ever.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdain View Post
    I can see how that 2-3% difference in gear stats can accumulate if there is a team with 15 folks who all have 3% better gear than the other team. But does that happen very often? What would have greater impact is if those 15 are on voice chat and focus firing.

    I can also see your point that we would have less disparity if gear were 100% normalized, but that's not the RIFT model, and it's pretty common for an MMO to have gear progression. What I like about RIFT a great deal is that the gear progression isn't that dramatic and those who pay for progression or even have better luck, don't out gear me sufficiently to make much of a difference.

    I just don't share your concerns overall.
    There is an advantage when premades in cq are gearing up much faster than the rest of the population and they tend to stick together. Progression in pvp works only when there is a ceiling where players can eventually normalize. This system they are using is the same as having a house with no roof. It is bound to fall apart over time. That is basically how I look at their progression model.

    Competitive nature of pve is vastly different from pvp. You can have the best in slot for pve and it will always make your team better but only vs. dragons. There is no real player to player competition other than world first between guilds. Having an unreachable best in slot for pvp for many players is detrimental and will make the pvp experience terrible for majority of your player base especially new players. This eventually causes Trion to bleed players because there is NO WAY or time line set for them to ever catch up


    What is really telling about this is it will eventually screw over the balance of the game that they have spent resources on implementing. The best I can describe the balance is simply that they put you with losers or winners through a behind the scenes balancing mechanic which tries to balance your internal ratio of wins to losses. This btw is all side stepped by premades. .

    With them bleeding out the necessary scrubs mixed with premades you have a counter to the matchmaking system in place that already exist. All efforts of them to balance pvp will eventually be a moot point because of Trion allowing exploited and broken systems to exist within their system of balance., This is why I think they waste so much time at Trion. They build a system that is suppose to do a job but they do not eliminate the exploitable mechanics from that system so the system only works 20% of the time. Problem is we see players wanting to play together but not in competitive fashion. They want to play together to farm scrubs. That is why the 5 v 5 bg was removed.

    IMO, I would just make cq steppes solo queue and cq stillmoor premade allowed. Also, lower the time it takes for matches to start to 45mins so more games can be done in a day. Also, increase stillmoor kill counter back to 2k.
    Last edited by Planetx; 04-29-2014 at 11:03 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Planetx View Post
    There is an advantage when premades in cq are gearing up much faster than the rest of the population and they tend to stick together. Progression in pvp works only when there is a ceiling where players can eventually normalize. This system they are using is the same as having a house with no roof. It is bound to fall apart over time. That is basically how I look at their progression model.

    Competitive nature of pve is vastly different from pvp. You can have the best in slot for pve and it will always make your team better but only vs. dragons. There is no real player to player competition other than world first between guilds. Having an unreachable best in slot for pvp for many players is detrimental and will make the pvp experience terrible for majority of your player base especially new players. This eventually causes Trion to bleed players because there is NO WAY or time line set for them to ever catch up


    What is really telling about this is it will eventually screw over the balance of the game that they have spent resources on implementing. The best I can describe the balance is simply that they put you with losers or winners through a behind the scenes balancing mechanic which tries to balance your internal ratio of wins to losses. This btw is all side stepped by premades. .

    With them bleeding out the necessary scrubs mixed with premades you have a counter to the matchmaking system in place that already exist. All efforts of them to balance pvp will eventually be a moot point because of Trion allowing exploited and broken systems to exist within their system of balance., This is why I think they waste so much time at Trion. They build a system that is suppose to do a job but they do not eliminate the exploitable mechanics from that system so the system only works 20% of the time. Problem is we see players wanting to play together but not in competitive fashion. They want to play together to farm scrubs. That is why the 5 v 5 bg was removed.

    IMO, I would just make cq steppes solo queue and cq stillmoor premade allowed. Also, lower the time it takes for matches to start to 45mins so more games can be done in a day. Also, increase stillmoor kill counter back to 2k.
    I am a player that run premade alot and win CQ, but have never recieved a Radiant Cell from it.... in my eyes it always drops to the PvE geared beginners running their few first Conquest games.

    This is why i am considering to cancel paying subscription and just flat out stop playing, i put down so much time in PvP but i progress nowhere in gear, meanwhile people who play far less just log in and BAM rewarded for participating, even tho they just enter at timer and loot the chest, it doesnt matter at all. Free RNG giveaways.

    I hated RIC ever since the day it came to the PvP scene, and one thing even worse is that the depleted chest are purchaseable with credits.... and even those are complete RNG, most of the time rewarding with Whetstones wich are so tiny difference from the one purchaseable with favor... and apart from that, i have gotten a few things, but they were all worse then regular PvP gear, and a pair of gloves got doublettes of em.....

    Progression level past Warlord stinks, and will continue to do so until everyone just quit PvP so they can completely remove it from the game and carry on the PvE-train.
    Flukeyy
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  14. #14
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    To be completely honest, i would rather have subscription based game come back and i wish this f2p never got live.

    for 15euro a month i could get all the PvP gear i ever needed BiS, without rolling a dice even once.

    for 40euro on the Depleted boxes, i got nothing.

    What a trade-off right?
    Flukeyy
    <Deep And Dry>

  15. #15
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    RIC's dont matter, it's all about the DIC.

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