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Thread: 5v5 que, now what?

  1. #1
    Ascendant Keota's Avatar
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    Default 5v5 que, now what?

    5v5s failed miserably because there was absalutely NO insentive to do them. You are fooling yourself if you think they flopped for any other reason then that. EVERY aspect of this game is reward driven. Its become that of a drug to rift players.

    I would love someone try and say "no one wants to premade" yet premades are all over pug ques and more then ever.

    What's the difference between a cq premade and a 5v5 premade? Ones rewarded and ones not. Ones popular and the other isn't.

    Its STILL un rewarded, and un used and that's just the way Trion wants it. I would love to hear a dev say otherwise, then ask him where did the rest of its development go when they decided to half *** it. Then straight up abbandon it.

    Please remove that reminder on the top of the warfront que list that you guys aren't willing to go the extra mile for a portion of your paying customers. A portion by the way that's very debatable in size.

    People didn't ask for cq it was given to use. And you made it manditory. We asked for 5v5s and you gave it to us yet made it completely useless to anyone but 5 people.

    I just came back to Rift after a 6 month hiatus, needless to say even as one of the FIRST 5v5 supporters in the game I have YET to endulge myself in that que. You know what answers I get when I asked folkes to group with me for it?

    "Sorry bro, I need more favor and marks." "Sorry man my CQ power is getting low" "I'm good, there is absalutly no reason to do them".


    Have you seen the PvP forums lately? They are dead, we didn't drive our players away with spawn camping. You never fixed the damn problem when you had a chance. You let it go and turned a blind eye when it came to DEV TIME. thennnnn you sit back and let the carebear community (the ones you cater too btw, absalutly biased as hell players) sit there and say "its your fualt that 5 scrubs had nothing better to do then spwan camp our new f2p arivals."

    Give us a reason to stay. Give us a reason to pay you our hard earned money before we take it elsewhere.


    Some people here have no idea why us old players are pissed off, and I imagine its because they werent around to see rift open world pvp or gvg or open world 5v5s. When guilds fought over graveyards in stillmoore. When "top 5 player" threads actually meant something.

    You know what's more dangerous to a game then a spawn camper and troll? A angry, pissed off, and extremely vocal PvP community looking to spread its frustration to all corners of your forums and others like it.

    You have such an amazing game with such amazing potential and you let it all just slide right through your fingers. For what? Your 3 remaining raid guilds? You better hold on to those players for your dear life.



    If you want us on YOUR side, you have to give us somthing to work with. I'm tired of loseing debates in other game forums about why rift pvp will never amount to anything.

    /end rant & fix your 5v5 que. Breathe life back into this seriously ill community.
    Zoartype@Deepwood

  2. #2
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keota View Post
    5v5s failed miserably because there was absalutely NO insentive to do them. You are fooling yourself if you think they flopped for any other reason then that. EVERY aspect of this game is reward driven. Its become that of a drug to rift players.

    I would love someone try and say "no one wants to premade" yet premades are all over pug ques and more then ever.

    What's the difference between a cq premade and a 5v5 premade? Ones rewarded and ones not. Ones popular and the other isn't.

    Its STILL un rewarded, and un used and that's just the way Trion wants it. I would love to hear a dev say otherwise, then ask him where did the rest of its development go when they decided to half *** it. Then straight up abbandon it.

    Please remove that reminder on the top of the warfront que list that you guys aren't willing to go the extra mile for a portion of your paying customers. A portion by the way that's very debatable in size.

    People didn't ask for cq it was given to use. And you made it manditory. We asked for 5v5s and you gave it to us yet made it completely useless to anyone but 5 people.

    I just came back to Rift after a 6 month hiatus, needless to say even as one of the FIRST 5v5 supporters in the game I have YET to endulge myself in that que. You know what answers I get when I asked folkes to group with me for it?

    "Sorry bro, I need more favor and marks." "Sorry man my CQ power is getting low" "I'm good, there is absalutly no reason to do them".


    Have you seen the PvP forums lately? They are dead, we didn't drive our players away with spawn camping. You never fixed the damn problem when you had a chance. You let it go and turned a blind eye when it came to DEV TIME. thennnnn you sit back and let the carebear community (the ones you cater too btw, absalutly biased as hell players) sit there and say "its your fualt that 5 scrubs had nothing better to do then spwan camp our new f2p arivals."

    Give us a reason to stay. Give us a reason to pay you our hard earned money before we take it elsewhere.


    Some people here have no idea why us old players are pissed off, and I imagine its because they werent around to see rift open world pvp or gvg or open world 5v5s. When guilds fought over graveyards in stillmoore. When "top 5 player" threads actually meant something.

    You know what's more dangerous to a game then a spawn camper and troll? A angry, pissed off, and extremely vocal PvP community looking to spread its frustration to all corners of your forums and others like it.

    You have such an amazing game with such amazing potential and you let it all just slide right through your fingers. For what? Your 3 remaining raid guilds? You better hold on to those players for your dear life.



    If you want us on YOUR side, you have to give us somthing to work with. I'm tired of loseing debates in other game forums about why rift pvp will never amount to anything.

    /end rant & fix your 5v5 que. Breathe life back into this seriously ill community.
    war's over man wormer dropped the big one

    ride out your sub and hope the new games are good

  3. #3
    Ascendant Keota's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    war's over man wormer dropped the big one

    ride out your sub and hope the new games are good
    Who's at war? I simply want to enjoy the 54 days of sub I have left to the best of my ability. If you don't share that intrest then feel free to "ride out your sub" doing the same **** you did 3years ago.

    .
    Last edited by Keota; 01-05-2014 at 06:20 AM.
    Zoartype@Deepwood

  4. #4
    Champion of Telara kronor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keota View Post
    5v5s failed miserably because there was absalutely NO insentive to do them. You are fooling yourself if you think they flopped for any other reason then that. EVERY aspect of this game is reward driven. Its become that of a drug to rift players.

    I would love someone try and say "no one wants to premade" yet premades are all over pug ques and more then ever.

    What's the difference between a cq premade and a 5v5 premade? Ones rewarded and ones not. Ones popular and the other isn't.

    Its STILL un rewarded, and un used and that's just the way Trion wants it. I would love to hear a dev say otherwise, then ask him where did the rest of its development go when they decided to half *** it. Then straight up abbandon it.

    Please remove that reminder on the top of the warfront que list that you guys aren't willing to go the extra mile for a portion of your paying customers. A portion by the way that's very debatable in size.

    People didn't ask for cq it was given to use. And you made it manditory. We asked for 5v5s and you gave it to us yet made it completely useless to anyone but 5 people.

    I just came back to Rift after a 6 month hiatus, needless to say even as one of the FIRST 5v5 supporters in the game I have YET to endulge myself in that que. You know what answers I get when I asked folkes to group with me for it?

    "Sorry bro, I need more favor and marks." "Sorry man my CQ power is getting low" "I'm good, there is absalutly no reason to do them".


    Have you seen the PvP forums lately? They are dead, we didn't drive our players away with spawn camping. You never fixed the damn problem when you had a chance. You let it go and turned a blind eye when it came to DEV TIME. thennnnn you sit back and let the carebear community (the ones you cater too btw, absalutly biased as hell players) sit there and say "its your fualt that 5 scrubs had nothing better to do then spwan camp our new f2p arivals."

    Give us a reason to stay. Give us a reason to pay you our hard earned money before we take it elsewhere.


    Some people here have no idea why us old players are pissed off, and I imagine its because they werent around to see rift open world pvp or gvg or open world 5v5s. When guilds fought over graveyards in stillmoore. When "top 5 player" threads actually meant something.

    You know what's more dangerous to a game then a spawn camper and troll? A angry, pissed off, and extremely vocal PvP community looking to spread its frustration to all corners of your forums and others like it.

    You have such an amazing game with such amazing potential and you let it all just slide right through your fingers. For what? Your 3 remaining raid guilds? You better hold on to those players for your dear life.



    If you want us on YOUR side, you have to give us somthing to work with. I'm tired of loseing debates in other game forums about why rift pvp will never amount to anything.

    /end rant & fix your 5v5 que. Breathe life back into this seriously ill community.
    Has rift pvp amounted to anything in 2+ years in any way shape or form? How do you think the next 2 years would go (if this game lasts anywhere near that amount of time)

    Games crap because it has been dumbed down over and over, hardly a sliver of attention in 2+ years and the only large feature for pvp they implemented was cq and who really likes cq? As for premades, said it time and time again most dont want to do premade vs premade because what will happen is one premade will farm pugs for hours ( for absolutely nothing if they have r90 ) and when another premade comes and kicks their ***** they usually quit after 1 or two matches. Couple this with the TERRIBLE matchmaking putting 1 r90 vs multiple, the game gets stale real fast. Cant legit think of anyone i regularly used to pvp with that hasnt either quit or only plays because they are waiting on another mmo later this year.

    Oh and TTK sucks, barely any hybrids anymore so everyones in the same spec,general player skill took a nosedive

  5. #5
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keota View Post
    Who's at war? I simply want to enjoy the 54 days of sub I have left to the best of my ability. If you don't share that intrest then feel free to "ride out your sub" doing the same **** you did 3years ago.

    .
    haha its from animal house, it was in jest of players like us trying to make this game good only to fall upon deaf ears. sometimes you just need to face facts that this game is not going to be good again.

  6. #6
    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    I believe that there are fixes to the problems and certainly every time I post I hope they are taking what I say in consideration and you the players are not filled with hope that the things I say which are very apparent and may seem doable IS GOING TO HAPPEN BECAUSE MOST LIKELY THEY WON'T IN ANY TIMELY FASHION...The other reason I opt out for giving suggestions is I usually do not know what other changes may influence these proposed changes and that can lead to a flop.. Such like what matchmaking is currently.. A big flopping joke..

    5V5

    The 5v5 queue was suppose to be an outlet for players who wanted to pvp in a 5v5 environment and do tournaments(player staged) for the player rewards. Most of those players quit the game before it came into fruition so it is basically a flop to many but not technically if you look at it this way since the possibility is still there and Trion can host those tournaments now if they cared.

    The matchmaking however was a total utter flop. Let me try to make this logical. Warfronts have many scenarios and outcomes. These are very ambiguous for every single queue player. There is very little a single person can do to forcefully change the outcome of the events. Now this is debatable but for the most part we are considering a huge number of warfronts of various scenarios. Different warfronts, different players, different play styles, gear, awareness etc. You alone can not make a huge difference usually when considering a huge amounts of scenarios.. It is usually a factor of many individual actions that lead to an outcome wither win or loss etc.

    Matchmaking

    In terms of matchmaking.. I figure that the basic way to equalize such out comes is to make it so that in terms of wins to losses you should probably end up within some bracket where they want to keep you as close to the norm.. Let us say 50/50 as possible. Now this is basically not possible because the game will never work this way because of imbalances in classes and player pools. Not every class can heal like x or dps like y etc. There are not many of each to equally distribute with the same potential skill. This is not a good solution alone.But it can work to some extent.

    However, there needs to be another check.. that check is to divide the classes so that those who can heal or dps similar to each other end up on opposing sides.. This alone helps to even the system but as I said before this is not a true solution and will not work.

    there is more checks to further make matchmaking work I suppose but for the most part these two seem like essential checks... I can understand the complexity in making this actually work.. it is not possible to always be fair.It is highly unlikely to occur actually.

    Now here is the deal on why it is so broken. Add a premade into the mix, give them freedom of queue without any penalty and you totally scrutinized and essentially negated the matchmaking process which is already having trouble to do its job.

    Their is absolutely next to 0 ambiguity on the outcomes since the amount of influence premades have on any given scenario is more than likely going to favor the premade. The outcome ON mostly any given scenario in pm vs pug is not only heavily influenced by the premade it is most likely predictable, THIS IS A BIG THING TO CONSIDER. This means out of millions of scenarios that may happen .. guess what.. the outcome is the SAME usually for the premade vs. pug. For a solo queue the millions of scenarios that can happen the outcome can be next to 0 predictability.

    So what can be done? There is one very logical solution that would probably break rift and that is to do away completely with pug queue.. Everyone must premade.. Although this is very logical in some way this is also not something everyone wants so you have to find some way to please everyone without hurting everyone at the same time. This could work but won't work for everyone and it would be incredibly hard to balance and simply Rift is not designed for this type of on the fly balance..


    So there is another solution that will please more of everyone. This solution is to tackle the problem right down to the basic level. To make the scenarios and outcomes of premade queues more ambiguous and unpredictable.

    If we consider the reason premades are effectively ruining pvp is actually because they are able to manipulate the randomness of scenarios which a usually a single queue can not do then we can offer some basic solutions to this problem and effectively please the majority of the player base in the process.

    The way they can make these scenarios and there outcomes even more random is quite simple.

    The easiest way to do this is actually by allowing maps where you are put up against more than 1 group. This makes the scenarios exponentially greater and the addition of another group to a 4 way would make the scenarios so dynamic and diverse that it will be incredibly hard to manipulate the outcome of the scenario to favor the premade entirely. This is the key to fixing the problem and pleasing majority of the playerbase.

    You keep the 1v1 team for the legit players who want to pvp and you enforce a strict system for premades where they can only play maps that are designed specifically to equalize the scenarios and outcomes of the single queue..


    There are other ways to do so but this is the best, and most easiest way to quickly fix premades in pvp. Make several maps which allow for 4 way battles and allow premades to queue into those specifically with pugs and leave the other maps for single pug queues.

    TL; DR Basically make maps designed to equalize the potential outcomes and scenarios for premades with that of the single pug queue. Maps with 3 ways and 4 ways.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 01-05-2014 at 08:23 AM.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Jeffreys's Avatar
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    So the 5v5 black garden doesn't give the same rewards as the regular black garden?
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    You are asking for a scary thing. You might ruin the one aspect of content you have potential to enjoy the most by creating artificial desire to do it. It would/could in time become flooded with people who have divided interest in the activity. Sure it would be populated, but CQ is populated too. It has people who love it. It also has a lot of people who afk, wander off, and who frankly care less and probably do anything but promote fun to be had in the game.

    Rewards will bring people to it, but, it has the possibility of the above. If it can get jump started without rewards, it will have a more genuine following and active participation.

    My 2c that I think the main issue is being able to see/communicate with other groups ready to do it. It is an either or queue sort of thing. You either do it or you don't. There could be people you don't even know down to do it, but maybe they tried 10m ago for 20m and got nothing. Then a group later tries for 30m, 15m after one group stops. Who knows, lots of people don't know each other and therefore can't be on the same page of others willing to play. What I am saying is, think of an FPS game - it would be 10x harder to EVER setup a game without server browsers. Ie. something that lets me see the gamestate from a glance, see who all is active, who is willing to play. The context is different for an MMO, but I would look into some way to make it so unrelated parties can intuitively know better when a group is ready to play.

    At times I could get games going by joining an empty server back in the day, it would populate because people say 1 guy and knew he wanted to play. Now, without a server browser, I'd just sit on the server forever and the chance of someone going there would just happen by chance, not them seeing me willing to play. Much smaller chance. So, whatever that means in MMO terms I think Rift needs it for their 5's. Maybe a checkbox that denotes a leader? Just something you can flag your group for, like "willing to do 5's" or whatever. Then you would have a browser that shows people flagged "willing to do 5's" and you could contact them? You see what I am getting at. Something intuitive to connect with players willing to do 5's, because right now only 'friends' do it because they communicate with each other.
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    Ascendant Wing man's Avatar
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    This thread is hilarious considering how long I saw posts from supposed "pillars of the pvp community" clamoring for "real competition".

    Trion has given you PvP Rifts for OWPVP
    Trion has given you PvP rankings
    Trion has given you 3 faction CQ/RvR
    Trion has given you 5v5 GroupvsGroup
    Trion plans to give you PvP Dimensions


    Trion has not given you Arenas
    Trion has not given you a Pony

    They just need to rename RIFT to ENTITLEMENT the MMORPG and get it over with.
    Last edited by Wing man; 01-05-2014 at 09:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wing man View Post
    This thread is hilarious considering how long I saw posts from supposed "pillars of the pvp community" clamoring for "real competition".

    Trion has given you PvP Rifts for OWPVP
    Trion has given you PvP rankings
    Trion has given you 3 faction CQ/RvR
    Trion has given you 5v5 GroupvsGroup
    Trion plans to give you PvP Dimensions


    Trion has not given you Arenas
    Trion has not given you a Pony

    They just need to rename RIFT to ENTITLEMENT the MMORPG and get it over with.
    To be fair,

    OWPvP was basically eradicated with Storm Legion launch. The dailies were a bandage on that months after release.

    Leaderboard rankings are a joke.

    CQ is a horribly designed zerg with an uncomfortable amount of PvE.

    Cannot comment on 5v5, haven't played.

    PvP dimensions do not exist yet and continuously get pushed back (in favour of PvE content likely) - legitimate gripe.
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  11. #11
    Champion of Telara kronor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wing man View Post

    Snip
    Trion has given you PvP Rifts for OWPVP - Wpvp was killed off when they allowed both factions to be in the same guild
    Trion has given you PvP rankings - What rankings?
    Trion has given you 3 faction CQ/RvR - Pretty sure even daglar has stated he doesnt like CQ and its only participated in because people felt forced to with CQ power
    Trion has given you 5v5 GroupvsGroup - Trion took a fang out of black garden, hard work right?
    Trion plans to give you PvP Dimensions - Plans that were mentioned how long ago and were supposed to be released by now?

    You forgot the "new" conquest that was mentioned before the xpac and many were expecting it with the release or close to it, year later and uhh yea still isnt out
    Last edited by kronor; 01-05-2014 at 10:18 AM.

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    5vs5 obviously requires more time and what is the most important: YOU CANT STOMP AS EASILY AS YOU CAN IN PUG WF or CQ.

    Also GL implementing any rewards to 5vs5 and in the same time making it not possible to abuse (aka feeding with alt chars, etc)
    PvP in RIFT is good only @forum.

  13. #13
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlwaysHealNeverDie View Post
    5vs5 obviously requires more time and what is the most important: YOU CANT STOMP AS EASILY AS YOU CAN IN PUG WF or CQ.

    Also GL implementing any rewards to 5vs5 and in the same time making it not possible to abuse (aka feeding with alt chars, etc)
    yea people are going to do that to get favor and prestige instead of wfs and cq.

    there is a difference between special awards and no rewards. no rewards is a joke.
    Last edited by dday; 01-05-2014 at 11:05 AM.

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    They gave you guys 5s you guys didn't show up oh well time for trion to move on and put this nightmare behind them.

  15. #15
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    lol @ people who still hope for change

    You should have known by mid 2012 at the latest that nothing was changing.
    Fluent

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