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Thread: Vengeance and Valor..

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
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    Default Vengeance and Valor..

    Okay for healers these stats seem completely useless..

    Tooltips say:

    Vengeance : Increases effective attack power and spell power against enemy players by xx

    Valor: Damage reduced from enemy players b x% (Okay this part is good)
    Healing and Absorbs received in PVP reduced by x% (this is the part that sucks).

    I have been talking to a few others, they seem to think that Valor, reduces the penalty for healing in PVP, and that it's the other persons valor that matters (not yours).

    Can we get this clarified by someone who knows how this actually works?

    For me right now, its seems completely worthless to get pvp gear on a healer.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    whether you get the gear or not, you will always have both valor and vengeance in pvp. if you wear pve gear into a warfront, the game will auto replace that gear with the lowest tier (freelancer) of pvp gear through a mechanic called bolstering. runes applied to your pve gear will not be transferred. doesn't matter if it is green pve gear, or epic raid gear.

    you will always be better off buying the pvp gear, upgrading it, and putting runes on it.
    you can "get by" with just the bolstering effect, and not be too much of a handicap to your team (that is, after all, the entire point of the mechanic). you can also get by eating nothing but ramen noodles. will you skip the turkey this Thanksgiving and just serve ramen at your family dinner? buy the pvp gear. ;)

    vengeance: think of this as pvp spell power. it will improve your healing spells.
    valor: everyone is in the same boat on this one, and healing is still OP in pvp.
    for pvp to have any point at all, players on both sides need to be killable. that includes healers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    whether you get the gear or not, you will always have both valor and vengeance in pvp. if you wear pve gear into a warfront, the game will auto replace that gear with the lowest tier (freelancer) of pvp gear through a mechanic called bolstering. runes applied to your pve gear will not be transferred. doesn't matter if it is green pve gear, or epic raid gear.

    you will always be better off buying the pvp gear, upgrading it, and putting runes on it.
    you can "get by" with just the bolstering effect, and not be too much of a handicap to your team (that is, after all, the entire point of the mechanic). you can also get by eating nothing but ramen noodles. will you skip the turkey this Thanksgiving and just serve ramen at your family dinner? buy the pvp gear. ;)
    Brought nothing to the questions asked.

    vengeance: think of this as pvp spell power. it will improve your healing spells.
    The tooltip says nothing about this, can you cite where a dev made this statement?

    valor: everyone is in the same boat on this one, and healing is still OP in pvp.
    for pvp to have any point at all, players on both sides need to be killable. that includes healers.
    It doesn't make any sense that the more armor you would have the less healing you would receive.

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    Soulwalker BlakLanner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damon Koal View Post
    The tooltip says nothing about this, can you cite where a dev made this statement?
    It says right in the tooltip for Vengeance "Increases effective attack power and spell power against enemy players by X"

    As far as Valor goes; no matter how much valor gear I equip, I never see that "Reduces healing" number change. I think it is a fixed value. The valor tooltip used to have a "Reduces damage from other players" value that disappeared after 2.5. That number did go up as my valor stat increased. I think the effect is still there but they broke the tooltip somehow.

    PvP gear is very worth getting if you are going to do CQ/WFs more than once in a while. Runes and enchants don't transfer from your PvE gear if it gets bolstered but function as normal if you have the actual PvP gear. That alone makes a large difference in your performance in these battles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlakLanner View Post
    It says right in the tooltip for Vengeance "Increases effective attack power and spell power against enemy players by X"
    You need to go back and read what I was quoting.

    As far as Valor goes; no matter how much valor gear I equip, I never see that "Reduces healing" number change. I think it is a fixed value. The valor tooltip used to have a "Reduces damage from other players" value that disappeared after 2.5. That number did go up as my valor stat increased. I think the effect is still there but they broke the tooltip somehow.
    Not looking for what people think. I am looking for what the devs have posted/said.

    PvP gear is very worth getting if you are going to do CQ/WFs more than once in a while. Runes and enchants don't transfer from your PvE gear if it gets bolstered but function as normal if you have the actual PvP gear. That alone makes a large difference in your performance in these battles.
    Yes, pvp gear is worth getting. If for nothing else than the damage reduction it offers.

    However, due to the very poorly worded tooltips it makes little sense to want to buy them.

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    The heal reduction is the same no matter what gear you have. Being on my cleric vs my rogue they actually should adjust the text. One of my toons says reduces damage. The other simply says reduces healing. It is a bit mis-leading if you don't inherently know the mechanics all in all. The rogue looks fine - valor reduces damage. The cleric implies my valor reduces healing, sort of.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    The heal reduction is the same no matter what gear you have. Being on my cleric vs my rogue they actually should adjust the text. One of my toons says reduces damage. The other simply says reduces healing. It is a bit mis-leading if you don't inherently know the mechanics all in all. The rogue looks fine - valor reduces damage. The cleric implies my valor reduces healing, sort of.
    On my Warrior valor says it reduces Healing and Absorbs only.

    On my Cleric Valor says it reduces damage taken as well as healing and absorbs.

    So it isn't even consistent.

    This is part of the reason I want to see something from a Dev.

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    I'd like to see a screen shot where any individual stat related to equipping a PvE piece ever gets decreased when bolstering occurs. I believe that individual stats never get reduced by the bolstering effect, only increased if bolstering can increase an individual stat that would come for that same piece of gear to the level a Freelancer tier would provide.

    I believe it is only the combined effects of Vigilance and Valor that eventually makes it impossible for a PvE piece of gear to be better than a PvP piece in a PvP situation, because in a PvP situation Vengeance increases the amount of outgoing damage or healing that occurs per ability usage and Valor increases how long in time one's own character will live. Together, Vengeance and Valor increase how much outgoing damage can be dealt before one's own character will die.

    At some point a long time ago I saw a post that explained the math behind how Vengeance and Valor work, but I don't have a webpage bookmark for it and the math has probably changed since then anyway. And I don't understand the new tooltip wording for Valor either, but it does seem to be worded such that it hasn't been changed into Vengeance and it instead it still reduces incoming damage.
    Last edited by Taptap; 11-19-2013 at 04:47 AM.
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    Plane Walker Bodicca's Avatar
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    I'd like to see a screen shot where any individual stat related to equipping a PvE piece ever gets decreased when bolstering occurs. I believe that individual stats never get reduced by the bolstering effect, only increased if bolstering can increase an individual stat that would come for that same piece of gear to the level a Freelancer tier would provide.
    Bolstering actually replaces gear. For example, if you have a relic weapon that weapon will be replaced with a freelance weapon. If you go into a wf with pve gear an icon will appear where your buffs are. Mouse over that icon and it will show you what gear has been replaced. If you open your stats page you can see that your SP, Dex, hit, etc. are indeed reduced.

    If you think you're better off using a pve weapon you're not, simply because you won't actually be using that weapon. You're always better off using pvp gear and putting runes on them.
    Last edited by Bodicca; 11-19-2013 at 05:07 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taptap View Post

    I believe it is only the combined effects of Vigilance and Valor that eventually makes it impossible for a PvE piece of gear to be better than a PvP piece in a PvP situation, because in a PvP situation Vengeance increases the amount of outgoing damage or healing that occurs per ability usage and Valor increases how long in time one's own character will live. Together, Vengeance and Valor increase how much outgoing damage can be dealt before one's own character will die.
    What is Vigilance? Never heard of it before.

    Nor do I care about the math behind Vengeance and Valor, I only want some clarification, from a dev, about what it does instead of what people think.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Taptap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodicca View Post
    Bolstering actually replaces gear. For example, if you have a relic weapon that weapon will be replaced with a freelance weapon. If you go into a wf with pve gear an icon will appear where your buffs are. Mouse over that icon and it will show you what gear has been replaced. If you open your stats page you can see that your SP, Dex, hit, etc. are indeed reduced.
    I was not able to make that happen a while back when Mercenary gear was the lowest tier. In the rare cases I got the icon you speak of, and that was seldom, it said that I was being bolstered and I never saw any stat being reduced. Only increased. I'd love to see a ss that proves otherwise now, because that would make the word "bolster" an oxymoron as used in pvp.
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  12. #12
    Ascendant Taptap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damon Koal View Post
    What is Vigilance? Never heard of it before.

    Nor do I care about the math behind Vengeance and Valor, I only want some clarification, from a dev, about what it does instead of what people think.
    It doesn't exist except in a previous time where it was underlined in red by my spell checker and I selected that by accident and without noticing I had done so, instead of the word Vengeance (which I always and even this time misspelled but this time I selected the correct word from the offered list).

    You might get some clarification from Daglar or another dev. Such things are rare though. You might have a better chance creating a ticket and asking for it. Good luck. I wish they'd just make a nice and thorough explanation and sticky it.
    Last edited by Taptap; 11-19-2013 at 05:50 AM.
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  13. #13
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    The tooltips are misleading, especially since the one for valor has been broken for a week or two now.

    Vengeance does affect your healing, but will not show up on skill tooltips, since they only reflect spell power and talents.

    I can see how vengeance might be confusing since it does state AGAINST enemy players and healing spells aren't used offensively...minus that one time when the sent overheal thing was crazy broken.

  14. #14
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damon Koal View Post
    I only want some clarification, from a dev, about what it does instead of what people think.
    there are some parts of the bible I'd like God to clarify too. what people think seems contradictory, unrelated, excessive, or just plain silly.

    do you want to guess which of us is going to get that clarification from our desired source first?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

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    Ascendant forbiddenlake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damon Koal View Post
    You need to go back and read what I was quoting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    vengeance: think of this as pvp spell power. it will improve your healing spells.
    Quote Originally Posted by Damon Koal View Post
    The tooltip says nothing about this, can you cite where a dev made this statement?
    Quote Originally Posted by Damon Koal View Post
    Vengeance : Increases effective attack power and spell power against enemy players by xx
    > Increases effective attack power and spell power against enemy players

    > Increases effective attack power and spell power

    > Increases spell power

    Spell power increases healing. Vengeance increases spell power in PvP.
    Therefore, Vengeance increases healing.

    I don't get what you don't get about the tooltip.

    And good luck on your religious crusade to get a dev response. Trion are actually better at using their forum than most MMOs, but again .. good luck.
    Last edited by forbiddenlake; 11-19-2013 at 02:10 PM.

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