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Thread: My PvP "What was Trion thinking?" list

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    Soulwalker GeekWithGuns's Avatar
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    Default My PvP "What was Trion thinking?" list

    I have been a computer game PvP'er for over 3 decades. (Yup! 36 years ago I played my first PvP computer games) The games most of you may know are; Wow almost from release, Eve for several years, SWtOR, LotRO, Rift. Although I have done a bit of PvE as well, predominately I am a PvP'er. I do not claim to be the best - what I do claim is lots of experience and a modicum of wisdom about the subject of PvP. And I have PvP'd long enough in Rift to get one 60 now partially in Myrmidon gear, another has Freelance gear that was earned, not given like now. And another mid-50 working toward 60 via PvP.



    First, at the high risk of offending many of you - I applaud their recent change to the
    'hoppers' of the game. Bouncing/hopping is a tactic to exploit the nature of a wide area
    network, synchronization driven, latency plagued game. It is not a 'standard' combat
    tactic, it is not a legitimate defense. (You have those built in; dodge, parry, block,
    resists) I would have handled it differently, any 'jump' more then once every 5 seconds
    triggers a 0.5 or 1.0 second GCD - you want to bounce like popcorn? Fine - you are so busy
    jumping you will never get an ability off.



    Second, Diminishing Returns (DR) and Crowd Control (CC). I am....dumbfounded as I play at
    the complete lack of DR on many occasions, and it's total negation of CC at other times.
    How often as a healer have I literally been stunlocked to death? (And my healers are not
    made of glass, most healing specs I run have 30K+ health at lvl 60) Or lately - since patch
    2.5 - interrupted to death. I was on my Cleric/Sent healer shortly after the patch and saw
    "Interrupted" back to back to back to back so d*mn*d many times it was as bad as stunlocked
    till dead. I mean literally I saw 5 to 10 interrupts in a row where I could not get a heal
    off to save anyone including myself. Where's the DR Trion? I swapped to bubble heals
    finally - at least there I only have to deal with silences, stuns, squirreling, mind
    control, blinding, dazes as I try to bubble/insta-heal my team. And yes, tried doing a few
    cast time/channeled wards - and guess what? Interrupted...Interrupted...Interrupted...arg!

    Trion...what does it say to you when it is mandatory people macro all their abilities just
    to include Break Free (and other CC breakers). I have never played a PvP game before where
    it was pretty much necessary to macro in your escape abilities into simple crap like
    builders and finishers. Your 'escape' in other games was used rarely and when in a truly
    desperate situation. People had to think when to use it, not macro it into every ability.

    On the flip-side, how often have I played a CC class (like an Assassin rogue) where I go to
    stun, daze, blind, etc...and seen "Immune". Now, if I stun/silence them coming out of
    stealth, try to stun them again in a couple of seconds, blind them and vanish to try and
    stun again - yeah by that point they *should* be immune. But immune to the first one? Or
    as the second bad guy rides up and dismounts and I toss a blind at them and get
    "Immune"......? There is no consistency to Trion's DR/CC system and to be blunt...

    There is *way* to much CC in Trion's pvp to ever be balanced properly. It's probably
    impossible to change it in any 2.xx patch but let's hope in 3.xx maybe they can trim it back
    to some sane level. Or put in a consistent, workable DR system.


    Third - Premades. Again I know I am going to offend many here but truthfully - I could care
    less. I am sick of running up against premades that rofl-stomp the poor pugs they are
    matched up against. The way it should be done is simple, any group larger then say 2 to 3
    people, is put into a premade only queue - they ONLY and did I mention *ONLY* get matched up against other premades. If that means they never get a pop, so be it. Put a system into
    place - if not many premades are queuing then warn the premade leader when they queue
    that...well there isn't anyone they are going to be able to play against. They can stay on
    vent to socialize, pair up and sign up in tiny groups or individual - or wit there as a 15
    person premade and...wait.

    Because if you think PvP is fun for the 80% of us that do not form these large premades and
    run up against them all the time, then you are completely clueless. And what often happens,
    especially late night, one large premade gets built, and the only thing the other pvp'ers get is thrown into a pug to face that premade, and get stomped again and again and again and
    again.

    Make premades play only against premades - period.



    Fourth, your new queuing system sucks to be blunt. I went from a normal 50/50 win/lose long
    term average to a 80% even close to 90% loss ratio. It takes forever now to simply win a
    warfront. Yeah, yeah throw your shots, it's all my fault. If you think one player can
    cause loss after loss after loss in WF's you are seriously deluded. And while you are at it
    Trion, how about fixing it so the system doesn't put 5 strong healers on one side and none
    the other? If you are going to attempt to balance things out, then...balance them!



    And last, the daily PvP gear box rewards. Seriously Trion, on my mid-50's mage for two days
    in a row I have gotten a cloth helmet that might have been an upgrade except...it was heavy
    on Wisdom, light on Intelligence. Seriously? Cloth? Slanted toward Wisdom? That's for
    chain, NOT cloth. Quit being lazy with this random stat crap, get with the program, if it
    is cloth it is Int heavy, chain is Wisdom heavy, leather is Dex heavy and plate is Strength
    heavy - it's pretty simple Trion! Weapons and other stuff is a bit trickier but armor
    is...simple! Fix it. No wait, the system is smart enough to give me cloth and even weapons
    and toys I can equip (my mage never gets a two handed axe for example)...so make it a wee
    bit smarter and give proper stats. That cloth helmet with 53 Wisdom and 41 Intelligence is
    almost useless to a mage.


    There are other issues with PvP in Rift, but these are the ones that over the last several
    months have risen to the top of my "What was Trion thinking?" list.
    Last edited by GeekWithGuns; 11-10-2013 at 11:46 AM.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Fragasm's Avatar
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    I would like to point out that I am VERY offended that you accuse me of exploiting by bunny hopping. It is a way to play (that I do it by nature) and its my right to. Do not accuse me or anyone else of exploiting.
    The only way that someone from Cluster 2 is actually as bad as you all say is if they started playing this game in 2.3 (Free to Play launch).

    Proud officer and Mage class lead of <Zombies>

  3. #3
    Soulwalker GeekWithGuns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fragasm View Post
    I would like to point out that I am VERY offended that you accuse me of exploiting by bunny hopping. It is a way to play (that I do it by nature) and its my right to. Do not accuse me or anyone else of exploiting.
    Companies such as Trion recognize the behavior for what it is, exploiting an intrinsic weakness in the system that causes problems they did not intend. They can't stop you from hopping but they can compensate to get the game back where *they* intended it to be.

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    Ascendant Fragasm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeekWithGuns View Post
    Companies such as Trion recognize the behavior for what it is, exploiting an intrinsic weakness in the system that causes problems they did not intend. They can't stop you from hopping but they can compensate to get the game back where *they* intended it to be.
    Why the hell am I exploiting by jumping? Does people drop dead when I hit my space bar? Does my team magically earn points when my feet hit the ground again?

    If you use the argument that I'm using YOUR latency to my advantage, then you need to get both another argument and better internet.

    And by the way, no one macros Break Free in. If they do, they shouldn't.
    Last edited by Fragasm; 11-10-2013 at 12:22 PM.
    The only way that someone from Cluster 2 is actually as bad as you all say is if they started playing this game in 2.3 (Free to Play launch).

    Proud officer and Mage class lead of <Zombies>

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    Soulwalker GeekWithGuns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fragasm View Post
    Why the hell am I exploiting by jumping? Does people drop dead when I hit my space bar? Does my team magically earn points when my feet hit the ground again?

    If you use the argument that I'm using YOUR latency to my advantage, then you need to get both another argument and better internet.

    And by the way, no one macros Break Free in. If they do, they shouldn't.
    That is *your* opinion. Many guides for macros and PvP in Rift use the final 'cast Break Free' line in their examples and discussions.

    And if you are trying to convince me that spastically spamming the spacebar while PvP'ing in Rift is "natural behavior"...I just have to laugh and wonder.

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    Ascendant Fragasm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeekWithGuns View Post
    That is *your* opinion. Many guides for macros and PvP in Rift use the final 'cast Break Free' line in their examples and discussions.

    And if you are trying to convince me that spastically spamming the spacebar while PvP'ing in Rift is "natural behavior"...I just have to laugh and wonder.
    Link a guide (from a truly great PvPer) who puts Break Free in their macro. The issue with that is that Break Free becomes re-active for some spells like snares - so you just burnt it to un-snare you. Now you're stunned and can't get out until the timer runs out. No one great puts it in.

    I did it in Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, I did it briefly in Dark Age of Camelot when I played for a few months, I did it in Guild Wars 2, I know people who do it in console games like Halo, Call of Duty, and Battlefield, and I and many others do it in RIFT.

    If you lag too much that my jumping causes you to be unable to hit me, that sucks for you. But don't tell me that what I do on instinct (I don't know why I do it, I just do) is an exploit. Because it's not.
    The only way that someone from Cluster 2 is actually as bad as you all say is if they started playing this game in 2.3 (Free to Play launch).

    Proud officer and Mage class lead of <Zombies>

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    General of Telara Virchow's Avatar
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    Little known or potentially well-known fact:

    Average age of a RIFT player was somewhere in the thirties I believe, based on a few year old thread.

    I assume you've been PvPing since Atari 2600 Combat, probably like a lot of us. I even believe most of us played those MMOs you listed, and several more.

    The two things I wonder are:
    1) I wonder why it's THIS game we've really connected with, and actually care if it succeeds or fails
    2) Where the hell are all of you guys when I'm trapped at a neighborhood party, fundraiser or other painful social event talking about 1000 things I could care less about. I would kill for one night actually talking about class balance, synergy, 2/5/10/raid tactics, DR/CC, World and Instanced PvP, arenas, MMO and PvP evolution and best practice institution of PvP in a progression based MMO as opposed to sports, weather, the economy, and politics.

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    Ascendant
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    "as a healer im stunlocked and never imune"
    "as assassin when i attack healers, they are always imune"

    did stop reading there ^^
    Last edited by Antigonos; 11-10-2013 at 12:49 PM.

  9. #9
    Telaran PathOfExile's Avatar
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    why you qq'ing about being cc'd for 10+ sec dawg?
    Konstantene, Izualy, Mykee, Aristeiia.

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    Ascendant spaceboots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PathOfExile View Post
    why you qq'ing about being cc'd for 10+ sec dawg?
    because he already used break free since its macroed

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    Soulwalker GeekWithGuns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antigonos View Post
    "as a healer im stunlocked and never imune"
    "as assassin when i attack healers, they are always imune"

    did stop reading there ^^
    You are being a drama queen and misquoting for your own dramatic purposes - Both times in my OP I said "How often...." - not once did I say never or always.

  12. #12
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    I'm pretty sure 99% of those who jump (myself included) aren't doing it in hopes of being 1m out of range. In fact these days it's rare people go straight melee dps. *I* do it for spells/casts that require me to face the target, while I may be moving in the opposite direction.

    So when you call jumpers 'exploiters' you may lose your target audience.
    Matryarch <FoH>
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    - A True PVPer has more fun losing 95-100 than winning 100-1

  13. #13
    Soulwalker GeekWithGuns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fragasm View Post
    ...

    If you lag too much that my jumping causes you to be unable to hit me, that sucks for you. But don't tell me that what I do on instinct (I don't know why I do it, I just do) is an exploit. Because it's not.
    I don't lag too much, it is an intrinsic part of any WAN. Jumping like a fool while fighting a melee opponent got started when someone discovered it was 'just enough' added distance (the height of the jump) to put a melee opponent out of range, interfering with their ability to fight back as the game designers intended.

    The practice has been handed down since that time from player to player, across multiple MMO's and game systems. It is a learned habit - that is why you do it, and it breaks the mechanics of the game as the designers planned. Various methods have been designed to deal with it, the added melee distance solution is just one.

    But to claim it's not an exploit, when it was originally implemented by players as an exploit and is continued by many as an unfair advantage over melee opponents is simply...denial. No matter why you learned it, it gives you an unfair advantage over a melee opponent.

    Trion has finally recognized this and implemented their solution to the problem.

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    Soulwalker GeekWithGuns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobXIII View Post
    I'm pretty sure 99% of those who jump (myself included) aren't doing it in hopes of being 1m out of range. In fact these days it's rare people go straight melee dps. *I* do it for spells/casts that require me to face the target, while I may be moving in the opposite direction.

    So when you call jumpers 'exploiters' you may lose your target audience.
    There are legitimate reasons to jump, like the one you just pointed out. But trust me, as a rank 86 Sin/RS rogue here in Rift, and having played a Rogue back in vanilla WoW to Rank 11 before they did away with the ranking system - spastic hopping against a melee trying to crawl all over you is common and often (not always) meant to gain an unfair advantage.

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    Ascendant spaceboots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeekWithGuns View Post
    There are legitimate reasons to jump, like the one you just pointed out. But trust me, as a rank 86 Sin/RS rogue here in Rift, and having played a Rogue back in vanilla WoW to Rank 11 before they did away with the ranking system - spastic hopping against a melee trying to crawl all over you is common and often (not always) meant to gain an unfair advantage.
    Why don't you just do it too?

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