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Thread: Would implementing maximum class restrictions in warfronts be viable?

  1. #1
    Telaran PyroKiller's Avatar
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    Default Would implementing maximum class restrictions in warfronts be viable?



    The way I understand it, warfront teams are composed of whatever players fill up the raid first, regardless of class. This often ends up with a raid composed of 18 rogues and 2 warriors and that just seems ridiculous when you think about it. A raid like that has no chance of beating a team with a balanced line-up of doms, cloros and sents.

    I'm not sure what changes would need to be made to the queuing process itself but I think it would make sense to limit the amount of classes in a warfront, i.e. a team in BG doesn't need 8 sins, and a codex doesn't need 15 pyros.

    By implementing warfront class restrictions it would make for more balanced teams overall (i think) as well as encouraging players to become accustomed to a wider range of specs. It doesn't have to be extremely strict, mostly designed to keep 15+ rogues playing 61 assassin out of the same raid.

    It wouldn't even have to be something the players see, it would just automatically take into account the classes in the queuing process, and with the combining of the two clusters I don't imagine there would even be much of a wait time for pops.

    Anyways, thoughts.
    Last edited by PyroKiller; 11-10-2013 at 11:15 AM.

  2. #2
    Plane Walker
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    Recently I haven't had any games where no clerics were present for example. If both sides get 4 clerics and one side has 1 healing cleric and the other 4 with no aditional healers present the result will be pretty one sided anyways.

    Meaning that until trion implements it in a way where you could only queue as a certain role (which would kill all variability in PvP, as its important to switch during the match according to situations), you couldn't even balance around that either

    Taking paragraph 1, I would assume that Trion has something around that line in place with the new matchmaking already, as games decided by grossly different healing capabilities have been few in after the patch

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    While it would be nice for them to guess at how many people will heal and solve it based on that, someone could change specs.

    However, I think the system could at least take class into account, it's weird/stupid that sometimes a team will have like 8 rogues while the other team has two, they couldn't split them up so that we might have had room for one of those five clerics?

  4. #4
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tulia View Post
    Recently I haven't had any games where no clerics were present for example. If both sides get 4 clerics and one side has 1 healing cleric and the other 4 with no aditional healers present the result will be pretty one sided anyways.

    Meaning that until trion implements it in a way where you could only queue as a certain role (which would kill all variability in PvP, as its important to switch during the match according to situations), you couldn't even balance around that either

    Taking paragraph 1, I would assume that Trion has something around that line in place with the new matchmaking already, as games decided by grossly different healing capabilities have been few in after the patch
    And what if I told you that I've been on several WF's where there were 6 Clerics Healing and on the other side just DPS?

    Not making this up. Seen it several times since the new matching system went live.

    A maximum role allocated slots would be good. Would balance things a bit, but I know it's technically hard to implement.

    TF2 has that but its a simpler game compared to Rift.

    The way the matching system is working is creating more frustration, for everyone, more than ever due to the perceived amount of losses now being bigger than ever due to the matching system itself creating imbalances.

  5. #5
    Ascendant Baramos's Avatar
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    It sounds good on paper, but this game doesn't have enough PvPers to impose more limits.
    Last edited by Baramos; 11-11-2013 at 08:53 AM.
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  6. #6
    Champion of Telara
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    I said recently in another thread somewhere about something similar to this.

    I dont think max class restrictions are needed. I do however believe that classes should be even between teams.

    So, if red team gets a cleric, the next cleric into the queue goes on blue team. Same for all 4 classes. Then any perceived imbalance is solely down to the players and their specs rather than borked matching.

    I know its not entirely simple due to group queues etc but at least it would be a start.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pett View Post
    I said recently in another thread somewhere about something similar to this.

    I dont think max class restrictions are needed. I do however believe that classes should be even between teams.

    So, if red team gets a cleric, the next cleric into the queue goes on blue team. Same for all 4 classes. Then any perceived imbalance is solely down to the players and their specs rather than borked matching.

    I know its not entirely simple due to group queues etc but at least it would be a start.
    Player ratings would make this difficult, however, a handful of nearly equally ranked players of the same class could at least be split up slightly.

    Let me just throw out that trying to sort things by more than one factor is obnoxious to program, a guy at work was told to take a list of six different things (not even equal numbers of each) and "randomize" them in a way that the same type if thing wouldn't touch. That method looks like garbage and doesn't always work because sometimes the database doesn't have enough of a thing in the search results.

    Our best bet in terms of coding the matchmaking would be "best effort" to put one of each class per team and leave the rest class-agnostic.

  8. #8
    Rift Chaser Kelebra's Avatar
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    I'm guessing que times would shoot through the roof, at least for rogues.
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    Champion Bluntmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baramos View Post
    It sounds good on paper, but this game doesn't have enough PvPers to impose more limits.
    Agreed. The nail is already halfway in the coffin, might as well drive it in the rest of the way if this change happens.Also would increase queue times i'd think.

  10. #10
    Rift Disciple mongolianmisfit's Avatar
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    This seems like a big deal because of the size of the WFs.

    [I remember a 5 ranger team and all 5 engi team in GW2. They steam rolled!!!!!!]

    It is the unwillingness of players to switch roles (specs) to balance a team despite the class they are playing. That is the problem.

    Any time you have more than 5 players in a WF, balance goes out the window.
    Last edited by mongolianmisfit; 11-13-2013 at 08:29 AM.
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  11. #11
    Ascendant Wing man's Avatar
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    Class restrictions would be a nightmare for community PR relations. WFs would be nothing but cleric roulette as their team would use the report feature to kick players until they found one "worthy" and or "willing" enough to take a precious healing slot when maybe said player feels like dpsing.
    Last edited by Wing man; 11-13-2013 at 08:49 AM.

  12. #12
    Telaran PathOfExile's Avatar
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    I suppose if there were enough people consistently playing in healer specs the game could implement that each team have a healer. I'd image that complaints amount the exorbitant amount healing rift has would rise. The game would also change and some might not like it with players going from low health to full many times in a wf ppl might just say **** this game atop of the ones who already said this.
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  13. #13
    Shield of Telara
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    One healer per 5 team menbers on either team. Make similar to LFG with picking heal or non healer when joining warfront queue and once queued lock the change soul abilities and tree menu also keep it locked in the warfront. Doubt it will make queues longer because most ppl arent healers but the healers will be split up either team per 5 team players.

    Premades will have a joining feature that will only allow one healer in party and same process. locks in queue and in wf.

    People will get annoyed at the fact that you cant change souls in the wf but why go into a wf if you're going ti change.

  14. #14
    Ascendant Ailene's Avatar
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    A limit for how many of each class might make things a bit unfair when it comes to queues, but I wish the new system somewhat split the classes a bit more equal. I did some WFs where one team had 4-5 Warriors and the other none. On top of those Warriors they had some Rogues, while we had about 3 Rogues and rest bluebars. I think this is what makes the new system feel broken some times. Even if they try to split up players based on ranks/skills, the damage will still be unbalanced some times.

    I don't think choosing roles and lock you to them is a way to go. That would be way too hard to make work. First of all because you need to be able to change role in a WF, depending on many things. Which role I end up playing, depends on which WF I get, what are the others doing in the WF and what do I do.

  15. #15
    Shield of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailene View Post
    A limit for how many of each class might make things a bit unfair when it comes to queues, but I wish the new system somewhat split the classes a bit more equal. I did some WFs where one team had 4-5 Warriors and the other none. On top of those Warriors they had some Rogues, while we had about 3 Rogues and rest bluebars. I think this is what makes the new system feel broken some times. Even if they try to split up players based on ranks/skills, the damage will still be unbalanced some times.

    I don't think choosing roles and lock you to them is a way to go. That would be way too hard to make work. First of all because you need to be able to change role in a WF, depending on many things. Which role I end up playing, depends on which WF I get, what are the others doing in the WF and what do I do.
    Ok, so you're agreeing that Warfronts need to have balanced out classes in each team but you don't like the idea of people having their roles locked on joining and getting placed in a team according to that role?

    Well, basically, that is just saying that it will never work because currently 3 classes can dps/support/heal so realistically, having a team with mixed classes isn't going to always be the best solution either as it stills creates an unbalanced scenario if there was a mixture of classes on each team but one team had all the healers in it whilst the other team had none because I would say, that team had players who refused to change to a healer setup.

    The fairness and balance of warfronts that are more casual then competitive atm, is to balance according to roles of the players joining as well as ranks/gear/prestige which ever, and to do that, you'll need to create a system where you cannot join as a healer and then change to a dps or vise versa, other wise again, it will throw it all out of balance.

    Don't get me wrong, I too like to see what the warfront im playing is going to turn into and decide on what role, but, with the versatility in the game, you can't do that in a pvp warfront with mainly random people who joined solo and have a balanced match.

    Still believe best bet is to bring in a similar system to the LFG but with it being something like 1 healer per 3 or 5 players. Join and queue as healer or non-healer and a premade group of 5 can only have 1 healer or cannot join the queue for warfronts.

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