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Thread: Its not only TRION at fault, its the communities as well.

  1. #1
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    Default Its not only TRION at fault, its the communities as well.

    If I remember right, one of the main concerns regarding Paragon and other Warrior builds was that they lacked burst damage. Very valid concern, burst is important since its how you counter burst healing and maximize the usage of CC.

    Survivability was also a major concern for melee builds, since ranged has gotten significantly better in terms of mobility/distance they can attack from.

    The changes hit PTS, one of the members of the Warrior community named Fafa brought it up.
    Everyone dismissed him regarding the issue, saying "WE NEED THE BURST!" That's the nice version.

    Changes hit live, now the Warrior/PVP community is going
    "OMG BURST IS TOO HIGH!
    NOW WE HAVE NO SUSTAINED! BLAME TRION!
    TRION SUCKS AT BALANCING!"


    And yet...the changes were on the PTS for weeks.
    It wasn't a change introduced last minute for 2.5. These were changes that were there and were announced over a month ahead of time.
    Several people actually endorsed it, demanded burst damage to compete, demanded survivability.

    So...the part of the community that demanded these changes, endorsed these changed, but did NOT test these changes are now blaming Trion for it?

    The community was given all of the tools necessary to test these changes.
    They were endorsed to test these changes.
    I do not recall anyone outside a handful of people being on PTS.

    What does that say about the PvP community?
    It does not know what it desires anymore.
    They desire burst, then complain in the next breath that TTK is too low.
    They demand more sustained, then complain TTK is too high.
    They demand healers to be nerfed, then complain that they can't survive with a healer on them.
    They demand healers be buffed, then complain they cannot kill anyone.

    Many of these changes were put onto the PTS weeks before hand. It is clear that Trion lacks the capability to test things to the extent that the community can.
    Heck when a few people do test the PvP changes and bring up issues, they get dismissed almost instantly.

    Sure, part of the blame does lie with Trion, but at the same time, they aren't a large company like Blizzard and simply do not possess the same resources.
    Much of the blame falls on the community, because it isn't consistent in its demands, and only provides very generic requests.

    "We want more burst."
    How much?
    "Healers are too strong!"
    In what way?
    "Utility specs are ignored."
    Why?

    Its too generic, and you are forced to play a guessing game with no actual parameters to aid you. The community is poor at articulating its wants and desires besides blanket statements and emotional outbursts.

    Yes, Trion is to blame for not testing as extensively as they can, at the same time they can only do so much.
    It also falls down on the community for simply not being capable of communicating its wants and desires in a way that is can be more easily understood, and in way that is feasible.

    In the past, on class forums we had/have many members who are outspoken, and make specific requests and make it easier to guide Trion in matters of buffing/nerfing.
    We don't have that with the PvP community.

    The community is very much split.
    Trion did a poor job with this patch PvP wise, but when you're given very vague directions, what more can you do?





    Tl;DR: Community needs to get its act together just as much as Trion does.
    Last edited by Katosu; 11-08-2013 at 04:21 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    If I remember right, one of the main concerns regarding Paragon and other Warrior builds was that they lacked burst damage. Very valid concern, burst is important since its how you counter burst healing and maximize the usage of CC.

    Survivability was also a major concern for melee builds, since ranged has gotten significantly better in terms of mobility/distance they can attack from.

    The changes hit PTS, one of the members of the Warrior community named Fafa brought it up.
    Everyone dismissed him regarding the issue, saying "WE NEED THE BURST!" That's the nice version.

    Changes hit live, now the Warrior/PVP community is going
    "OMG BURST IS TOO HIGH!
    NOW WE HAVE NO SUSTAINED! BLAME TRION!
    TRION SUCKS AT BALANCING!"


    And yet...the changes were on the PTS for weeks.
    It wasn't a change introduced last minute for 2.5. These were changes that were there and were announced over a month ahead of time.
    Several people actually endorsed it, demanded burst damage to compete, demanded survivability.

    So...the part of the community that demanded these changes, endorsed these changed, but did NOT test these changes are now blaming Trion for it?

    The community was given all of the tools necessary to test these changes.
    They were endorsed to test these changes.
    I do not recall anyone outside a handful of people being on PTS.

    What does that say about the PvP community?
    It does not know what it desires anymore.
    They desire burst, then complain in the next breath that TTK is too low.
    They demand more sustained, then complain TTK is too high.
    They demand healers to be nerfed, then complain that they can't survive with a healer on them.
    They demand healers be buffed, then complain they cannot kill anyone.

    Many of these changes were put onto the PTS weeks before hand. It is clear that Trion lacks the capability to test things to the extent that the community can.
    Heck when a few people do test the PvP changes and bring up issues, they get dismissed almost instantly.

    Sure, part of the blame does lie with Trion, but at the same time, they aren't a large company like Blizzard and simply do not possess the same resources.
    Much of the blame falls on the community, because it isn't consistent in its demands, and only provides very generic requests.

    "We want more burst."
    How much?
    "Healers are too strong!"
    In what way?
    "Utility specs are ignored."
    Why?

    Its too generic, and you are forced to play a guessing game with no actual parameters to aid you. The community is poor at articulating its wants and desires besides blanket statements and emotional outbursts.

    Yes, Trion is to blame for not testing as extensively as they can, at the same time they can only do so much.
    It also falls down on the community for simply not being capable of communicating its wants and desires in a way that is can be more easily understood, and in way that is feasible.

    In the past, on class forums we had/have many members who are outspoken, and make specific requests and make it easier to guide Trion in matters of buffing/nerfing.
    We don't have that with the PvP community.

    The community is very much split.
    Trion did a poor job with this patch PvP wise, but when you're given very vague directions, what more can you do?





    Tl;DR: Community needs to get its act together just as much as Trion does.
    the irony of this post is just too much. I'm guessing that's what you are going for so I'll be the first to bite

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    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    the irony of this post is just too much. I'm guessing that's what you are going for so I'll be the first to bite
    The only irony is that you're complaining about the changes made, but ignored Fafa when he made a complaint about the changes.

    What I stated is a simple fact.
    The PvP community is horrible when it comes to indicating what it exactly desires.
    Specificity is extremely important whenever you need to make any class changes.
    Simply because a change to Warriors will affect everyone in the PvP community.

    If you do not set a target, then you leave the company/person blind.

    Since the PvP community likes to compare itself to the PvE community, allow me to provide you a comparison.

    Clerics complain that Shaman's are not doing as much Single target DPS as a Paragon.
    In this case, it is specific, even if it does not seem that way, it truly is.
    Simply because the data for Paragon ST damage capability is present. It is easily accessible, and there is a target that can be seen and understood.


    When Warriors complain that they do not have enough burst, or that their burst is not comparable to a Pyro, this is much more different.
    There is no hard number.
    There is no parse.
    The exact circumstance is hard to analyze because there may be MANY factors at play.
    Was Flaring power up?
    Was it crumbling Resistance?
    Is it a genuine problem with Pyro or is it just a case where people do not notice the myriad of DoTs applied on them?

    In such a case, it becomes an overwhelming task for such a small company to figure out, hence why Daglar; rather bluntly; said everything on the PTS was open for testing.

    Which do you think help more?
    Pyro burst is too high.
    OR

    Pyro burst is too high because a Pyro can apply double count down, two fusillades, a Fulminate and a Cinderburst within a one second time period.
    Recommend applying a 20% nerf on Fulminate and Cinderburst to lower the burst significantly.

    The first is generic, the second is specific.


    Edit: Also, there is no need to quote a wall of text in such a manner. Keep it small. Don't troll.
    Last edited by Katosu; 11-08-2013 at 04:45 PM.

  4. #4
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    The only irony is that you're complaining about the changes made, but ignored Fafa when he made a complaint about the changes.

    What I stated is a simple fact.
    The PvP community is horrible when it comes to indicating what it exactly desires.
    Specificity is extremely important whenever you need to make any class changes.
    Simply because a change to Warriors will affect everyone in the PvP community.

    If you do not set a target, then you leave the company/person blind.

    Since the PvP community likes to compare itself to the PvE community, allow me to provide you a comparison.

    Clerics complain that Shaman's are not doing as much Single target DPS as a Paragon.
    In this case, it is specific, even if it does not seem that way, it truly is.
    Simply because the data for Paragon ST damage capability is present. It is easily accessible, and there is a target that can be seen and understood.


    When Warriors complain that they do not have enough burst, or that their burst is not comparable to a Pyro, this is much more different.
    There is no hard number.
    There is no parse.
    The exact circumstance is hard to analyze because there may be MANY factors at play.
    Was Flaring power up?
    Was it crumbling Resistance?
    Is it a genuine problem with Pyro or is it just a case where people do not notice the myriad of DoTs applied on them?

    In such a case, it becomes an overwhelming task for such a small company to figure out, hence why Daglar; rather bluntly; said everything on the PTS was open for testing.

    Which do you think help more?
    Pyro burst is too high.
    OR

    Pyro burst is too high because a Pyro can apply double count down, two fusillades, a Fulminate and a Cinderburst within a one second time period.
    Recommend applying a 20% nerf on Fulminate and Cinderburst to lower the burst significantly.

    The first is generic, the second is specific.


    Edit: Also, there is no need to quote a wall of text in such a manner. Keep it small. Don't troll.
    should i multi quote? is that the proper way to annoy people?

    i answered you in the warrior forums and what i think about your opinion on this matter and why the warrior class is impossible to get balanced

    anyways im going out for chinese food and trying to get laid if i strike out ill play bf4 since the ttk is a little longer in that game right now
    Last edited by dday; 11-08-2013 at 04:48 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    should i multi quote? is that the proper way to annoy people?
    Really?
    You are upset over a posting style now?
    You're very petty.

    I multi-quote because I wish to address different aspects of your post.
    If you dislike it, sorry, but I have no intent on changing it because someone is "annoyed" at being multi-quoted.
    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    i answered you in the warrior forums and what i think about your opinion on this matter and why the warrior class is impossible to get balanced/
    No, you simply did what you always do.
    Insult.
    Belittle.
    Get angry.
    Blame it on someone else.
    Or flip-flop on your stance because you're afraid for being perceived as "mean."
    That is what you did.

    The Warrior class can be balanced, but it is extremely difficult to do such a thing alone.
    TO suggest one person should be able to do it when a company like Capcom has issues is laughable.

    Try not to open your mouth lest she bless you with an arse whuppin.
    Last edited by Katosu; 11-08-2013 at 05:02 PM.

  6. #6
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    Don't take anything Dday seriously. He attacked me saying "players like you ruined RIFT" but has failed to specify what kind of player I am and how I ruined RIFT.

    Both sides are at fault, both Trion and the community. Not enough people tested this, and Trion didn't try to push the testing.
    The only way that someone from Cluster 2 is actually as bad as you all say is if they started playing this game in 2.3 (Free to Play launch).

    Proud officer and Mage class lead of <Zombies>

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    If I remember right, one of the main concerns regarding Paragon and other Warrior builds was that they lacked burst damage. Very valid concern, burst is important since its how you counter burst healing and maximize the usage of CC.

    Survivability was also a major concern for melee builds, since ranged has gotten significantly better in terms of mobility/distance they can attack from.

    The changes hit PTS, one of the members of the Warrior community named Fafa brought it up.
    Everyone dismissed him regarding the issue, saying "WE NEED THE BURST!" That's the nice version.

    Changes hit live, now the Warrior/PVP community is going
    "OMG BURST IS TOO HIGH!
    NOW WE HAVE NO SUSTAINED! BLAME TRION!
    TRION SUCKS AT BALANCING!"


    And yet...the changes were on the PTS for weeks.
    It wasn't a change introduced last minute for 2.5. These were changes that were there and were announced over a month ahead of time.
    Several people actually endorsed it, demanded burst damage to compete, demanded survivability.

    So...the part of the community that demanded these changes, endorsed these changed, but did NOT test these changes are now blaming Trion for it?

    The community was given all of the tools necessary to test these changes.
    They were endorsed to test these changes.
    I do not recall anyone outside a handful of people being on PTS.

    What does that say about the PvP community?
    It does not know what it desires anymore.
    They desire burst, then complain in the next breath that TTK is too low.
    They demand more sustained, then complain TTK is too high.
    They demand healers to be nerfed, then complain that they can't survive with a healer on them.
    They demand healers be buffed, then complain they cannot kill anyone.

    Many of these changes were put onto the PTS weeks before hand. It is clear that Trion lacks the capability to test things to the extent that the community can.
    Heck when a few people do test the PvP changes and bring up issues, they get dismissed almost instantly.

    Sure, part of the blame does lie with Trion, but at the same time, they aren't a large company like Blizzard and simply do not possess the same resources.
    Much of the blame falls on the community, because it isn't consistent in its demands, and only provides very generic requests.

    "We want more burst."
    How much?
    "Healers are too strong!"
    In what way?
    "Utility specs are ignored."
    Why?

    Its too generic, and you are forced to play a guessing game with no actual parameters to aid you. The community is poor at articulating its wants and desires besides blanket statements and emotional outbursts.

    Yes, Trion is to blame for not testing as extensively as they can, at the same time they can only do so much.
    It also falls down on the community for simply not being capable of communicating its wants and desires in a way that is can be more easily understood, and in way that is feasible.

    In the past, on class forums we had/have many members who are outspoken, and make specific requests and make it easier to guide Trion in matters of buffing/nerfing.
    We don't have that with the PvP community.

    The community is very much split.
    Trion did a poor job with this patch PvP wise, but when you're given very vague directions, what more can you do?





    Tl;DR: Community needs to get its act together just as much as Trion does.
    Do you realize that you by far are worst member of this community. You troll the warrior forums. Write inaccurate statements that people spend time refuting because they are so stupid. You waste peoples time and don't seem to grasp the fact you are a mindless troll.

    You want to help the community. No longer be a part of it. The freak show you created on the warrior forums is enough. Just stop.

    You constantly advocate not balancing the warrior class and it is wearing on people. The current state of warrior pvp is a joke and needs to get fixed.
    Last edited by Sidvader; 11-08-2013 at 06:45 PM.

  8. #8
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fragasm View Post
    Don't take anything Dday seriously. He attacked me saying "players like you ruined RIFT" but has failed to specify what kind of player I am and how I ruined RIFT.

    Both sides are at fault, both Trion and the community. Not enough people tested this, and Trion didn't try to push the testing.
    casual non competitive care bear who have had this game catered to them for 3 years and anytime a mention of the other side getting some love complains about it.... feel better

    @kat I only belittle people that deserve it and you deserve it more than anyone. there are plenty of people I disagree with but can have normal conversations with you are not one because you offer nothing
    Last edited by dday; 11-08-2013 at 06:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    casual non competitive care bear who have had a game catered to them for 3 years and anytime a mention of the other side getting some love complains about it.... feel better
    I'm casual. Is that a problem? The majority of the community is casual something. If you've got an issue with that, you're in the wrong game.

    I'm non competitive because competition only breeds toxicity and elitism.

    I'm only a care bear because I want things to be slightly fair. I'll work for something but I'm not gonna put that above fun.

    I don't want the game catered to me. This all started when I said that Elo sucked (assuming that it was what was used, and I was wrong). Elo is a terrible system for team competition.

    I'm fine with people arguing against me. But please use real arguements outside of personal attacks calling me a casual carebear bad.


    Thank you for answering.
    The only way that someone from Cluster 2 is actually as bad as you all say is if they started playing this game in 2.3 (Free to Play launch).

    Proud officer and Mage class lead of <Zombies>

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidvader View Post
    Do you realize that you by far are worst member of this community. You troll the warrior forums. Write inaccurate statements that people spend time refuting because they are so stupid. You waste peoples time and don't seem to grasp the fact you are a mindless troll.

    You want to help the community. No longer be a part of it. The freak show you created on the warrior forums is enough. Just stop.

    You constantly advocate not balancing the warrior class and it is wearing on people. The current state of warrior pvp is a joke and needs to get fixed.
    Most of his posts are on point.

    Warriors have been the most consistently overpowered class since 1.0. You sir need to brush up on your warrior history. Also who gives a crap how anyone performs in PvP? PvP in Rift is the equivilant to facebook games. No on actually really plays them but lonely bored people.
    Last edited by carebearkid; 11-08-2013 at 06:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carebearkid View Post
    Most of his posts are on point.

    Warriors have been the most consistently overpowered class since 1.0. You sir need to brush up on your warrior history. Also who gives a crap how anyone performs in PvP? PvP in Rift is the equivilant to facebook games. No on actually really plays them but lonely bored people.
    They're overpowered or nerfed to the point of being painfully bad. Aillion has yet to find a happy medium. Hopefully under Vladd, Warriors can get their happy medium.
    The only way that someone from Cluster 2 is actually as bad as you all say is if they started playing this game in 2.3 (Free to Play launch).

    Proud officer and Mage class lead of <Zombies>

  12. #12
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    Yeah right.... it's an ever going process, which keeps going and going until someone flushes the toilet.
    Dame/Anoreksia - Prestige Rank 1
    "Just set my score to 5/6 at the beginning of every PVP match before hand and prevent the wasted time of people rigging the outcomes to gain precious little 5/6 outcome." - Forgotten king of pvp

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by carebearkid View Post
    Most of his posts are on point.

    Warriors have been the most consistently overpowered class since 1.0. You sir need to brush up on your warrior history. Also who gives a crap how anyone performs in PvP? PvP in Rift is the equivilant to facebook games. No on actually really plays them but lonely bored people.
    Some people like PVP. With Katsou I have never seen a person post more miss information that has been refuted on the forums before. I feel sorry for WarUltima. He just cannot ignore this kid and spends hours painfully trying to explain with facts why he is wrong.. yet the guy keeps at it.

    It is incredible.

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    Great Post. Thats just about the best explanation I have read on the matter. Personally I kust believe their are people on these forums whose sole purpose is to troll the game into oblivion. I think Trion needs to enforce the forums much more aggressively to keep these guys outta here. Its like there is a new age of kids growing up into this game. Generation Troll? I mean isnt it obvious at this point who these people are to everyone by now? Lets get these people out of our community before they cause us all more unwanted grief.
    Landslide - Greybriar. ( Vendetta )
    (\_xxLand_/)
    RIP RatedX. >.<!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    casual non competitive care bear who have had this game catered to them for 3 years and anytime a mention of the other side getting some love complains about it.... feel better

    @kat I only belittle people that deserve it and you deserve it more than anyone. there are plenty of people I disagree with but can have normal conversations with you are not one because you offer nothing
    Yea right lol. Didnt you get a sweet reply from Daglar one day for passing misinformation?! Lol

    Katsou is on point, dont let these trolls fool you guys.
    Landslide - Greybriar. ( Vendetta )
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    RIP RatedX. >.<!

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