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Thread: Nerf assassins

  1. #166
    Ascendant Wing man's Avatar
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    If you don't want sins to attack you, just get that off-hand that looks like a shield.

    You'll still heal like a rock star you big babies.

  2. #167
    Champion TadaceAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhozDat View Post
    1. Basically yes. He's a rather typical healer, instead of looking into the multitude of ways afforded to him to counter an assassin by himself, he wants them nerfed, because healing is already hard enough to do while facetanking 5 dps.

    2. He's relatively clever about it however, as he puts it in the guise of comparing sin to other melee builds, the flaw in his logic is that a vast majority of melee builds are utter trash in pvp, if you ask anyone who has been around in pvp.

    3. He then begins to arbitrarily compute random mechanics into linear DPS/HPS increase/decreases, without the realization that doing so is completely and utterly irrelevant, because you simply cannot accurately do what he is attempting to do.
    ok..

    1. Tell me how to counter sins besides raw healing power and the stupid have the dps kill their dps argument.

    2. Melee is in general weaker than range in pvp just because of the way it works. Either buff the other melee builds to make them common place. Just because melee is weaker than ranged in most scenarios doesn't make it ok that one melee build is so much better than all the rest and OP under melee friendly scenarios.

    3. There is absolutely nothing wrong with my logic above. It assumes constant healing during a battle. I rounded down from 666 to 600. So the assumption is now that for 9/10 of the battle there is somebody to heal. If you disagree with my logic then give a detailed reason. Every mechanic in this game has an effective DPS or HPS increase and can be estimated with proper assumptions.
    Last edited by TadaceAce; 09-23-2013 at 10:39 AM.

  3. #168
    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TadaceAce View Post
    There is no way to account for it.. my math is logically valid for any fight that lasts long enough for the healer to run out of mana which could be anywhere from 10 seconds to 45 seconds (if all your mana is drained by the sin).

    I don't care how they nerf sins but they clearly buffed them over the top.

    - Change the stealth mechanic or just get rid of it in pvp.. this is an entire other discussion

    and pick one or two
    - Reduce damage
    - Reduce / remove mana drain
    - Change / remove the perma snare

    All other melee specs are similarly balanced shaman vs harb vs RB vs Paragon whereas Sin is a clear outlier..
    lol paragon? Do people use this spec? Like at all?

    I haven't seen a paragon in a long time, nor a shaman, nor one of those two that actually did anywhere near an RB, Sin or harbs effectiveness.

    You can't say "Balance" them like the other melee builds, because the other "Melee" builds, are horribly balanced, in a bad way.

    The mana drain should stay, with high damage, because quite frankly every MMO having blatantly overpowered healing is getting very very stale.

    The snare should go, but you will continue to QQ about assassins, because you will realize once it leaves, that it contributed nothing to assassins to begin with.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

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  4. #169
    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TadaceAce View Post
    ok..

    1. Tell me how to counter sins besides raw healing power

    2. Melee is in general weaker than range in pvp just because of the way it works. Either buff the other melee builds to make them common place. Just because melee is weaker than ranged in most scenarios doesn't make it ok that one melee build is so much better than all the rest and OP under melee friendly scenarios.

    3. There is absolutely nothing wrong with my logic above. It assumes constant healing during a battle. I rounded down from 666 to 600. So the assumption is now that for 9/10 of the battle there is somebody to heal. If you disagree with my logic then give a detailed reason. Every mechanic in this game has an effective DPS or HPS increase and can be estimated with proper assumptions.
    Because you make the assumption that the assassin is on you with no interference, which simply never happens. And if you're talking 1v1, then lets just pacify them repeatedly, because they can't do anything about it at all after their single break free is down.

    Then lets get into the multitude of consumables you could use to easily deal with an assassin, anything from squirrel in a bottle, to speed boost potion to slow immunity potions.

    Then lets talk about the fact that you could actually move while they are attacking you, but wait they slow, you can't kite them! Run around them in circles, if you can't out run them keyboard turning, stop keyboard turning yourself. Run them out of LoS of their healers, in between the 1 heal you need to throw on yourself every 3 seconds, ask a dps, or your team, to politely get the sin off your nuts.
    Last edited by WhozDat; 09-23-2013 at 10:42 AM.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

    Kaesola@Deepwood (Formerly Kaesoia/Kaesola@Wolfsbane); Miafereen@Wolfsbane (Formerly Malesh@Laethys)

  5. #170
    Champion TadaceAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhozDat View Post
    lol paragon? Do people use this spec? Like at all?

    I haven't seen a paragon in a long time, nor a shaman, nor one of those two that actually did anywhere near an RB, Sin or harbs effectiveness.

    You can't say "Balance" them like the other melee builds, because the other "Melee" builds, are horribly balanced, in a bad way.

    The mana drain should stay, with high damage, because quite frankly every MMO having blatantly overpowered healing is getting very very stale.

    The snare should go, but you will continue to QQ about assassins, because you will realize once it leaves, that it contributed nothing to assassins to begin with.
    So.. obviously you play a rogue...

    You can turn this around on healing all you want but that has nothing to do with the argument that sins are OP compared to similar roles.

  6. #171
    Rift Disciple
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    I'd even accept the passive snare coupled with the mana drain, as long as there was some way for me to EFFECTIVELY cleanse the snare effect for longer than one rogue GCD so that I might at least have a shot at some semblance of mobility, seeing as how the snare is just one form of CC that assassin is going to dump on me. The snare component, in the current iteration is bad design. Argue proc chances all you want, with the low GCD the uptime of the snare is 100%, even if I spam cleanse.

    Assassins should scare the bejeezus out of healers, I'm cool with that, but healers should have a "fighting chance". Due to the absence of any kind of effective DPS in healing specs, and depending upon the damage of others to deal with the threat, we have to have access to some kind of mobility. The 100% uptime snare removes the one tool left in the healer's box, making healers a free kill for every facerolling, mouth breathing, low-skill newb. If it were the case that only "pro" assassins were getting those kills it would be different, but it isn't. Assassins are not a counter to healers any longer, they are the nuclear option.

  7. #172
    Ascendant Wing man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnesteuer View Post
    Assassins are not a counter to healers any longer, they are the nuclear option.
    SHHHHHHHH!!!!! Dude! You're gonna get the Sab's jealous now.

  8. #173
    Champion TadaceAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhozDat View Post
    Because you make the assumption that the assassin is on you with no interference, which simply never happens. And if you're talking 1v1, then lets just pacify them repeatedly, because they can't do anything about it at all after their single break free is down.

    Then lets get into the multitude of consumables you could use to easily deal with an assassin, anything from squirrel in a bottle, to speed boost potion to slow immunity potions.

    Then lets talk about the fact that you could actually move while they are attacking you, but wait they slow, you can't kite them! Run around them in circles, if you can't out run them keyboard turning, stop keyboard turning yourself. Run them out of LoS of their healers, in between the 1 heal you need to throw on yourself every 3 seconds, ask a dps, or your team, to politely get the sin off your nuts.
    So the same argument.. our dps has to attack your sin because he is super OP and killing the healer.. pacify has no place in a battle discussion because it is utterly useless with the amount of random AE that flies around.

    Consumables? really? Most people can't be bothered to put a glyph on their weapon let alone potions.

    And kiting? Thats your go to argument against a class that one of the main reason they are so much better than every other similar role is because you can't kite them?

    The counter to every other melee calling it to kite (actually kite), overextend, heal the manageable damage... none of these counters work on sins on top of the free mana drain!
    Last edited by TadaceAce; 09-23-2013 at 10:50 AM.

  9. #174
    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TadaceAce View Post
    So.. obviously you play a rogue...

    You can turn this around on healing all you want but that has nothing to do with the argument that sins are OP compared to similar roles.
    I have a PR 80+ of every class, your generalizations do not work on me.

    Well yes, considering the other roles do not even function in any meaningful way in pvp, like at all, yes they are overpowered. Compared to the rest of the roles that function in pvp? The only thing that makes them an issue is a passive uncleansable snare, and that's less because the snare itself is broken, and more that any passive perpetual snare is a broken concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by TadaceAce View Post
    So the same argument.. our dps has to attack your sin because he is super OP and killing the healer.. pacify has no place in a battle discussion because it is utterly useless with the amount of random AE that flies around.

    Consumables? really? Most people can't be bothered to put a glyph on their weapon let alone potions.

    And kiting? Thats your go to argument against a class that one of the main reason they are so much better than every other similar role is because you can't kite them?

    The counter to every other melee calling it to kite (actually kite), overextend, heal the manageable damage... none of these counters work on sins on top of the free mana drain!
    The difference is their melee is now out of range of their healers, thus an easy kill. If their healer attempts to heal this assassin, that healer is now over extended, and thus an easy kill. That's the nature of melee in this game. That is why they are bad.

    Not my issue with the incapability to do anything, I do it all the time on my sent, hell, I have had 3 sins on my sent and been able to type into the raid chat for help, because quite frankly, they don't do enough damage to make me scared for at least 20 seconds, nor do they threaten my mana pool quick enough.

    and if you don't think you can kite sins, you're doing something wrong. You can kite them fine, it just isn't going to cause as high of a % of disconnects as most other melee builds in the game.
    Last edited by WhozDat; 09-23-2013 at 10:56 AM.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

    Kaesola@Deepwood (Formerly Kaesoia/Kaesola@Wolfsbane); Miafereen@Wolfsbane (Formerly Malesh@Laethys)

  10. #175
    Soulwalker Charsi's Avatar
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    2s or 2.5s icd on slowing posion OR make swift shot to not apply poisons. Should be quite k.
    Nehriska@Bloodiron - cleric

  11. #176
    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charsi View Post
    2s or 2.5s icd on slowing posion OR make swift shot to not apply poisons. Should be quite k.

    How about we just remove the slowing poison? Seems we're all more then in favor of it.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

    Kaesola@Deepwood (Formerly Kaesoia/Kaesola@Wolfsbane); Miafereen@Wolfsbane (Formerly Malesh@Laethys)

  12. #177
    Champion TadaceAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhozDat View Post
    The difference is their melee is now out of range of their healers, thus an easy kill. If their healer attempts to heal this assassin, that healer is now over extended, and thus an easy kill. That's the nature of melee in this game. That is why they are bad.

    Not my issue with the incapability to do anything, I do it all the time on my sent, hell, I have had 3 sins on my sent and been able to type into the raid chat for help, because quite frankly, they don't do enough damage to make me scared for at least 20 seconds, nor do they threaten my mana pool quick enough.

    and if you don't think you can kite sins, you're doing something wrong. You can kite them fine, it just isn't going to cause as high of a % of disconnects as most other melee builds in the game.
    You cannot use overextending to defend sins.. the permanent snare makes them significantly harder to overextend compared to EVERY OTHER ROLE... wow I keep using that aren't I?

    Are you arguing that sins don't do every bit as much damage as any other build?

    You can't kite someone while snared.. is it suddenly hard to stay in melee range when someone is moving at 70% speed?

  13. #178
    Plane Touched Skaleek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TadaceAce View Post
    You cannot use overextending to defend sins.. the permanent snare makes them significantly harder to overextend compared to EVERY OTHER ROLE... wow I keep using that aren't I?

    Are you arguing that sins don't do every bit as much damage as any other build?

    You can't kite someone while snared.. is it suddenly hard to stay in melee range when someone is moving at 70% speed?
    I think what many people are saying is that sins are the introduction to the new generation of melee, get used to it. Give more specific suggestions other than... lower damage. remove stealth. remove poison. gut the class. Those are not productive balance suggestions, its simply griping about dying on your cleric.

  14. #179
    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TadaceAce View Post
    You cannot use overextending to defend sins.. the permanent snare makes them significantly harder to overextend compared to EVERY OTHER ROLE... wow I keep using that aren't I?

    Are you arguing that sins don't do every bit as much damage as any other build?

    You can't kite someone while snared.. is it suddenly hard to stay in melee range when someone is moving at 70% speed?
    You mean, moving at 105% speed? Because you know, I use consumables that cost less then 5 gold each/favor, Oh and let's not forget any speed boost or slow immunity potion I pop. Or if I pacify them. Or if I simply decide to stand somewhere not stupid, IE already out of range of their healers.

    Sins do more damage then most builds, however, a majority of that, is bleed damage, therefore infinitely easier to heal through as compared to actual damage. I also attempt to face assassins, which most assassins just ignore, and their damage, goes even lower.

    No, they are not harder, nor easier to make overextend then any other melee, they simply have the tools to extricate themselves from that situation.

    Now, if you're a healer and you stand in a place where the other healer can heal the sin that is on you. That is YOU being in a BAD spot. Nothing to do with the balance of the game
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

    Kaesola@Deepwood (Formerly Kaesoia/Kaesola@Wolfsbane); Miafereen@Wolfsbane (Formerly Malesh@Laethys)

  15. #180
    Ascendant Wing man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhozDat View Post
    How about we just remove the slowing poison? Seems we're all more then in favor of it.
    Nerf assassins-how-about-no-bear-meme-1-.jpg

    I would rather be in favor of each class getting "it" (a version of their own snare) early in a tree. The 4 would be Justicar, Sin, Void Knight, and Harbinger. Compliments each tree perfectly allowing for flexible synergy on the go.
    Last edited by Wing man; 09-23-2013 at 11:22 AM.

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