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Thread: Nerf assassins

  1. #151
    Ascendant SprawlnBrawl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhozDat View Post
    Are you SidVader's alt account?

    Guys, I can't literally heal myself once every 5 seconds while eating a sandwich, licking a window and afking in TB, when fighting one of the few viable melee builds in the game!?! It's OP!

    The only thing that's broken is their snare, and not because it's actually broken, but more because perma passive snares are a terrible idea and not one that should be proliferated into a build that actually needs them.
    yea my warrior had such a hard time applying hamstring once every 15 seconds in wow

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Credo View Post
    I'm saying that just maybe it's okay if the healer has to take a second to ask a DPS on their own team to come get an enemy DPS off of them instead of the healer ignoring the only DPS on the other team that isn't attacking the 42K health tank for several minutes while said healer bunny hops their way to where ever they care to go.
    Do DPS not use raid frames in PvP for awareness of what's going on? Seriously, I've got too much to do as a healer to call for a peel, unless I had a bar of "self only" healing skills with a "Get this assassin offa' me!" shout macro'd to it (which I don't have hotbar space for, to be honest, and I pvp...no skill clicking/key turning here). My team expects me to know what's going on with them, am I not entitled to a little reciprocation?

    Just wait until all the dedicated healers that love PvP get fed up with being punching bags and roll up as DPS. Yeah, I'm biased, but high quality PvP healers are pro players, give them a DPS spec and you'll wonder where your face went after the wthpwnwafflestomp you get. I roll heals because it actually gives me a challenge in PvP, DPS is ezsauce.

  3. #153
    Champion TadaceAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skaleek View Post
    Indirect math like that implies that silence is massive increase in DPS, and that eradicate is a massive decrease to your HPS, you have to factor all these things in. If a sin is purged (which happens all too often when youre pushed far ahead, trust me) you become an absolute nothing.

    Now Im someone who hates when people say: just purge your enemy, cause that it implies you can always purge despite whatever spec you choose to play. So instead ill say this: With the snare removed, would you still have a problem with Debil poison? Because its been around for a long time, and i havent heard of anyone complaining about it thus far, or really using it either.

    I would love to see the absolute uproar of the forums if someone jacked Daglars account and just posted a thread: Coming soon.... Eradicating poison.
    Comparing passive mana drain to a 3 second silence on a 1 minute CD? Yeah lets do the exact same math there.

    1/20(2000).. about effectively a 100 DPS increase.. yeah that seems about right. Now lets compare it to the 600 above passively added to a buff?

  4. #154
    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnesteuer View Post
    Do DPS not use raid frames in PvP for awareness of what's going on? Seriously, I've got too much to do as a healer to call for a peel, unless I had a bar of "self only" healing skills with a "Get this assassin offa' me!" shout macro'd to it (which I don't have hotbar space for, to be honest, and I pvp...no skill clicking/key turning here). My team expects me to know what's going on with them, am I not entitled to a little reciprocation?

    Just wait until all the dedicated healers that love PvP get fed up with being punching bags and roll up as DPS. Yeah, I'm biased, but high quality PvP healers are pro players, give them a DPS spec and you'll wonder where your face went after the wthpwnwafflestomp you get. I roll heals because it actually gives me a challenge in PvP, DPS is ezsauce.
    I actually think the exact opposite. The point of which one is easier, is opinion and preference.

    As to the dps peeling issue; there's a reason why we say 98% of the dps in the game are idiots. It's not because they can't DPS, it's that they can't reliably choose the right targets to DPS while maintaining a sense of awareness around them. Usually they end up DPSing the tank that pulls 3 of them around a corner out of their healers LoS and they all die in 5 seconds.

    Whenever I play, if I see a red dot behind me or near me (Depending what I play) I tab into it, and blow it up. 9/10 it's a quicker kill then whatever I was doing before.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

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  5. #155
    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TadaceAce View Post
    Comparing passive mana drain to a 3 second silence on a 1 minute CD? Yeah lets do the exact same math there.

    1/20(2000).. about effectively a 100 DPS increase.. yeah that seems about right. Now lets compare it to the 600 above passively added to a buff?
    Dear lord. You seem to be a child of Virulent and SidVader.

    The world is ending. Prepare your tin foil hats
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

    Kaesola@Deepwood (Formerly Kaesoia/Kaesola@Wolfsbane); Miafereen@Wolfsbane (Formerly Malesh@Laethys)

  6. #156
    Plane Touched Skaleek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TadaceAce View Post
    Comparing passive mana drain to a 3 second silence on a 1 minute CD? Yeah lets do the exact same math there.

    1/20(2000).. about effectively a 100 DPS increase.. yeah that seems about right. Now lets compare it to the 600 above passively added to a buff?
    Did you read my whole post? Deaden is not a 60s cooldown my friend. And im simply stating you're adding indirect math to debil poison when i think if you do that same thing for a MM it comes out ahead (far ahead) of a sin. Perhaps you misunderstood what i wrote? These numbers all seem rather arbitrary, which was my point to begin with.
    Last edited by Skaleek; 09-23-2013 at 10:06 AM.

  7. #157
    Champion TadaceAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhozDat View Post
    Dear lord. You seem to be a child of Virulent and SidVader.

    The world is ending. Prepare your tin foil hats
    Your right.. I actually forgot about break free and liberty of thought, the effective DPS increase for silence and stuns is actually lower.

    Stop trying to turn this into an anti healing thread.. were supposed to be comparing sins to other melee specs and your "ermahgerd healing is already so easy" is completely irrelevant...

  8. #158
    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TadaceAce View Post
    Your right.. I actually forgot about break free and liberty of thought, the effective DPS increase for silence and stuns is actually lower.

    Stop trying to turn this into an anti healing thread.. were supposed to be comparing sins to other melee specs and your "ermahgerd healing is already so easy" is completely irrelevant...
    No, this thread is about nerfing assassins, one of the few performing melee builds, under the guise of comparing them to admittedly underwhelming builds, because a cleric can no longer facetank 3 dps for the better side of 3 minutes while keeping themselves and 2 or 3 other people healed, and eating a sandwich.

    I'm more then willing to have a conversation about sins, but as soon as you stop talking complete stupidity, so will I.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

    Kaesola@Deepwood (Formerly Kaesoia/Kaesola@Wolfsbane); Miafereen@Wolfsbane (Formerly Malesh@Laethys)

  9. #159
    Champion TadaceAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skaleek View Post
    Did you read my whole post? Deaden is not a 60s cooldown my friend. And im simply stating you're adding indirect math to debil poison when i think if you do that same thing for a MM it comes out ahead (far ahead) of a sin. Perhaps you misunderstood what i wrote? These numbers all seem rather arbitrary, which was my point to begin with.
    Someone said above it takes approx 45 seconds to drain all a clerics mana from poison procs. It takes 15 seconds regardless of what skill we are using to regenerate all our mana. That is 1 in 3 seconds they will have to stop healing to regain mana based on the poison alone.

    2k HPS is a pretty reasonable number for sustained healing not including cds. A third of that.. 666 HPS. I rounded down to 600 to be generous.

    In a sustained battle where the cleric has to regain mana, your poison is an effective increase in DPS by 600 or so when attacking a healer. Good dps is usually 1500-2k. This is a 33% increase in dps from the proc alone..

    I see no problems with that logic? This is on top of already a perma snare, stealth camping mechanics, and similar dps to every other role..

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhozDat View Post

    As to the dps peeling issue; there's a reason why we say 98% of the dps in the game are idiots. It's not because they can't DPS, it's that they can't reliably choose the right targets to DPS while maintaining a sense of awareness around them. Usually they end up DPSing the tank that pulls 3 of them around a corner out of their healers LoS and they all die in 5 seconds.
    That same 98% is also incapable of understanding the team dynamic of the PvP we are presented with in the game.

  11. #161
    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TadaceAce View Post
    Someone said above it takes approx 45 seconds to drain all a clerics mana from poison procs. It takes 15 seconds regardless of what skill we are using to regenerate all our mana. That is 1 in 3 seconds they will have to stop healing to regain mana based on the poison alone.

    2k HPS is a pretty reasonable number for sustained healing not including cds. A third of that.. 666 HPS. I rounded down to 600 to be generous.

    In a sustained battle where the cleric has to regain mana, your poison is an effective increase in DPS by 600 or so when attacking a healer. Good dps is usually 1500-2k. This is a 33% increase in dps from the proc alone..

    I see no problems with that logic? This is on top of already a perma snare, stealth camping mechanics, and similar dps to every other role..

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnesteuer View Post
    That same 98% is also incapable of understanding the team dynamic of the PvP we are presented with in the game.
    So I have observed
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

    Kaesola@Deepwood (Formerly Kaesoia/Kaesola@Wolfsbane); Miafereen@Wolfsbane (Formerly Malesh@Laethys)

  12. #162
    Plane Touched Skaleek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TadaceAce View Post
    Someone said above it takes approx 45 seconds to drain all a clerics mana from poison procs. It takes 15 seconds regardless of what skill we are using to regenerate all our mana. That is 1 in 3 seconds they will have to stop healing to regain mana based on the poison alone.

    2k HPS is a pretty reasonable number for sustained healing not including cds. A third of that.. 666 HPS. I rounded down to 600 to be generous.

    In a sustained battle where the cleric has to regain mana, your poison is an effective increase in DPS by 600 or so when attacking a healer. Good dps is usually 1500-2k. This is a 33% increase in dps from the proc alone..

    I see no problems with that logic? This is on top of already a perma snare, stealth camping mechanics, and similar dps to every other role..
    Okay so to answer the question i asked you earlier. You have a problem with debil poison's mana drain. Can i ask you why you've waited untill now to complain about it? It's been around for over a year(i think?). You are saying that the poison nullifies 1 out of every 3 seconds of HPS for a healer... Is that once you've hit zero mana? Because you still have to burn through that initial pool of 100% mana that hasnt been accounted for in any of your math.

    This can become highly theoretical but ill just keep asking, how do you want sins changed?

    You said remove the snare, i said np, fine. Now you want debil poison to have no drain? What would you change it to? Are you just saying scrap this ability, it makes it hard for me to heal and never have to deal with an energy mechanic, much like warriors and rogues do?

  13. #163
    Ascendant WhozDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skaleek View Post
    Okay so to answer the question i asked you earlier. You have a problem with debil poison's mana drain. Can i ask you why you've waited untill now to complain about it? It's been around for over a year(i think?). You are saying that the poison nullifies 1 out of every 3 seconds of HPS for a healer... Is that once you've hit zero mana? Because you still have to burn through that initial pool of 100% mana that hasnt been accounted for in any of your math.

    This can become highly theoretical but ill just keep asking, how do you want sins changed?

    You said remove the snare, i said np, fine. Now you want debil poison to have no drain? What would you change it to? Are you just saying scrap this ability, it makes it hard for me to heal and never have to deal with an energy mechanic, much like warriors and rogues do?
    Basically yes. He's a rather typical healer, instead of looking into the multitude of ways afforded to him to counter an assassin by himself, he wants them nerfed, because healing is already hard enough to do while facetanking 5 dps.

    He's relatively clever about it however, as he puts it in the guise of comparing sin to other melee builds, the flaw in his logic is that a vast majority of melee builds are utter trash in pvp, if you ask anyone who has been around in pvp.

    He then begins to arbitrarily compute random mechanics into linear DPS/HPS increase/decreases, without the realization that doing so is completely and utterly irrelevant, because you simply cannot accurately do what he is attempting to do.
    The only rogue troll who does better with his warrior and plays his warrior more then his rogue.

    Kaesola@Deepwood (Formerly Kaesoia/Kaesola@Wolfsbane); Miafereen@Wolfsbane (Formerly Malesh@Laethys)

  14. #164
    Champion TadaceAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skaleek View Post
    Because you still have to burn through that initial pool of 100% mana that hasnt been accounted for in any of your math.
    There is no way to account for it.. my math is logically valid for any fight that lasts long enough for the healer to run out of mana which could be anywhere from 10 seconds to 45 seconds (if all your mana is drained by the sin).

    I don't care how they nerf sins but they clearly buffed them over the top.

    - Change the stealth mechanic or just get rid of it in pvp.. this is an entire other discussion

    and pick one or two
    - Reduce damage
    - Reduce / remove mana drain
    - Change / remove the perma snare

    All other melee specs are similarly balanced shaman vs harb vs RB vs Paragon whereas Sin is a clear outlier..

  15. #165
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    A harbinger can spec for mana drain. <.<

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