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Thread: Paragon PvP video post 2.4

  1. #16
    Ascendant Aeonblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BishopX View Post
    I dont know about that, it depends on which game you played before this.

    if you played WoW where "warriors" were the guys with the most mitigation and most hp, that carried around 2handers and killed people by pushing forward forward FORWARD. then yeah the spec will seem to require pocket healing

    if you came from Warhammer, where a white lion/marauder could get knocked over by a slight breeze and have half your HP taken away by a random aoe you learn to run in and run out and wait your turn. If you notice this game I didnt have a pocket heal. count the heals on my team. 15 people and I have a warden a chloro and a warden/sent. no full sent or defielers or anything. if you look I drop out of combat to drink 4-5 times and used 2 potions.
    I think I did ok. people from other games may look at the "waiting to strike" as boring or bad mechanics, I kinda think thats how melee damage dealers shoulld work.. wait to strike get in and get out. kinda like Talon in league of legends, white lions in warhammer and Savages in DAoC.
    You can wait to strike all day, it doesn't make a difference if you melt in 5-10 seconds when you do strike.

    I see what you are getting at, but White Lions kinda sucked haha. Savages being able to quad made them ridiculous so that's a much better example I guess since they were stuck with low abs from having studded instead of chain. Very very easy to get burned as a Savage, but very easy to blow somebody up in 1 round if you get lucky too.

    edit: also Savage had the smallest HP pool of Mid melee I believe as well.
    Last edited by Aeonblade; 09-20-2013 at 09:39 AM.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skaleek View Post
    The other possibility being that healing is currently a little overtuned? Healfest matches becoming commonplace anyone?

    1.4k hits/crits are perfectly reasonable for a 1s gcd class, akin to a rogue.
    So you think time to kill without heals should be roughly 20 seconds on a 28k HP target, as melee?

    The only rogue spec that does 1.4's is assassin, and thats because it's backed up by 400+ serrated, 1k+ jagged, 300-450ish impale, and 3 poisons all proccing for something like 600 damage. Paragon has no procs worth mentioning besides shifting, which is an active buff that I believe consumes a GCD, then is spent on weaksauce 2k reaping harvests.

    Oh, and to answer your question, no healing is not over or undertuned. It's tuned correctly relative to the damage the top tier builds do. So unless Trion pulls something out their *** and orchestrates a REAL balance patch that modifies these top builds AND healing in one fell swoop(I've never seen them do anything but shift OP builds each patch) it really can't change.
    Last edited by Soboboo; 09-20-2013 at 09:41 AM.

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    Ascendant BishopX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soboboo View Post
    The thing is, you don't run dark passage. Dark Passage/Flicker is a pipe dream for warriors/rogues, nothing comes close for disengage/cc breaks and its an excellent gap closer, better than charges when your target is root immune because you can land ahead of them.
    yes but as a paragon or warlord you get TWO charges and thunderous leap.
    as my shaman, lets say I spec for dark passage. I only get 1 charge.
    I spec druid over cabalist because I like the ablative barrier+movement speed buff I get from druid over having a get out of jail teleport. I just run away.

    the paragon and warlord are way better for staying on target. my run speed is 21 sec with a 45 sec cooldown now isnt it? 2 charges and a pull on a 6 sec cooldown. Shaman has a ranged snare and 1 charge. kida wish druid teleport+charge was lower in the tree but the warrior stays on target better.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soboboo View Post
    So you think time to kill without heals should be roughly 20 seconds on a 28k HP target, as melee?

    The only rogue spec that does 1.4's is assassin, and thats because it's backed up by 400+ serrated, 1k+ jagged, 300-450ish impale, and 3 poisons all proccing for something like 600 damage. Paragon has no procs worth mentioning besides shifting, which is an active buff that I believe consumes a GCD, then is spent on weaksauce 2k reaping harvests.

    Oh, and to answer your question, no healing is not over or undertuned. It's tuned correctly relative to the damage the top tier builds do. So unless Trion pulls something out their *** and orchestrates a REAL balance patch that modifies these top builds AND healing in one fell swoop(I've never seen them do anything but shift OP builds each patch) it really can't change.
    Gotta disagree with you on the healing thing man, more and more matches are turning into stalemates fueled by unkillable healers. Im not saying these healers cant be killed on their own, but in a cross healing situation its starting to get scary.

    As for sin, i agree with you, but NB and BD both do that kind of damage too, BD has dances, NB has finishers like scourge of darkness and fiery spike dot damage to help. I suppose i dont really have enough experience with paragon to throw my hat in the ring, but if he can combo 15k damage as he says, doesnt seem to be so bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soboboo View Post
    So you think time to kill without heals should be roughly 20 seconds on a 28k HP target, as melee?

    The only rogue spec that does 1.4's is assassin, and thats because it's backed up by 400+ serrated, 1k+ jagged, 300-450ish impale, and 3 poisons all proccing for something like 600 damage. Paragon has no procs worth mentioning besides shifting, which is an active buff that I believe consumes a GCD, then is spent on weaksauce 2k reaping harvests.
    .
    I dont see any person in the video that it took me 20 seconds to kill. remember, we have a 20 minute video to dissect with unedited gameplay. there are pleanty of people who die to the damage including a warlord whom I really REALLY should not be able to kill but did. casters and damage dealers died in a fair amount of time. the rogue at 2:30 died too fast, i could not kill the sent at 13:40 but he was using cooldowns and at half HP I had to play passive, the rogue at 9:25 died pretty fast and the warlord geared mage at 9:50 got MELTED.

    27 killing blows, there are more than enough examples of damage being at least decent but not overpowered. which is where I want classes that I play to be. you are making it seem like paragon deals damage like a single target stormcaller.
    yes its "ONLY a 2100 reaping harvest.... with 500 proc from deadly parity and 400 from way of the wind and at times 1800 from shifting blades. to me thats decent damage.
    lets say we arent going to go by damage per hit. for a guy who spends most of his time running away, watch the damage meter on the right spike when I get into combat. and then watch it again when I am in comnat for an extended period of time. because of class mechanic, the paragon kinda has to build up 5 stacks of unleashed to deal killing damage. just watch after I get 2 kills at how much the damage meter moves.... and keep in mind, the meter isnt accurate as its lumping in other classes AoE as on target damage. the class is based off unleashed building stacks off follow ups, this is why its a class thats good for rallys but bad for standoffs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skaleek View Post
    Gotta disagree with you on the healing thing man, more and more matches are turning into stalemates fueled by unkillable healers. Im not saying these healers cant be killed on their own, but in a cross healing situation its starting to get scary.

    As for sin, i agree with you, but NB and BD both do that kind of damage too, BD has dances, NB has finishers like scourge of darkness and fiery spike dot damage to help. I suppose i dont really have enough experience with paragon to throw my hat in the ring, but if he can combo 15k damage as he says, doesnt seem to be so bad.
    I've seen many of those games, and the only thing causing this is bad DPS. All it would take is 2 or 3 good DPS running high tier builds and assisting to bring targets down, but it never happens. People see a huge fight and start spamming stupid **** like fire storm instead of trying to burst people with numbers over their head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BishopX View Post
    I dont see any person in the video that it took me 20 seconds to kill. remember, we have a 20 minute video to dissect with unedited gameplay. there are pleanty of people who die to the damage including a warlord whom I really REALLY should not be able to kill but did. casters and damage dealers died in a fair amount of time. the rogue at 2:30 died too fast, i could not kill the sent at 13:40 but he was using cooldowns and at half HP I had to play passive, the rogue at 9:25 died pretty fast and the warlord geared mage at 9:50 got MELTED.

    27 killing blows, there are more than enough examples of damage being at least decent but not overpowered. which is where I want classes that I play to be. you are making it seem like paragon deals damage like a single target stormcaller.
    yes its "ONLY a 2100 reaping harvest.... with 500 proc from deadly parity and 400 from way of the wind and at times 1800 from shifting blades. to me thats decent damage.
    lets say we arent going to go by damage per hit. for a guy who spends most of his time running away, watch the damage meter on the right spike when I get into combat. and then watch it again when I am in comnat for an extended period of time. because of class mechanic, the paragon kinda has to build up 5 stacks of unleashed to deal killing damage. just watch after I get 2 kills at how much the damage meter moves.... and keep in mind, the meter isnt accurate as its lumping in other classes AoE as on target damage. the class is based off unleashed building stacks off follow ups, this is why its a class thats good for rallys but bad for standoffs.
    I dunno, I'll have to watch it again. If it's 900 proc damage on each GCD that's pretty good, but I didn't see those numbers.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soboboo View Post
    I've seen many of those games, and the only thing causing this is bad DPS. All it would take is 2 or 3 good DPS running high tier builds and assisting to bring targets down, but it never happens. People see a huge fight and start spamming stupid **** like fire storm instead of trying to burst people with numbers over their head.
    Im not gonna disagree that the average dps player is dumb, but you'd think that just as many bad players are playing healers? So saying people suck is sort of a moot point seeing as people who suck can end up as a healer or a dps, and the fact that im saying there are MORE healfest matches than before, means that its a more common occurrence, since patch 2.4.

    Anyways, dont wanna derail bishops thread, just throwing it out there that i feel like healing is a little overtuned right now. Its fair that you disagree, its just my personal experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skaleek View Post
    Im not gonna disagree that the average dps player is dumb, but you'd think that just as many bad players are playing healers? So saying people suck is sort of a moot point seeing as people who suck can end up as a healer or a dps, and the fact that im saying there are MORE healfest matches than before, means that its a more common occurrence, since patch 2.4.

    Anyways, dont wanna derail bishops thread, just throwing it out there that i feel like healing is a little overtuned right now. Its fair that you disagree, its just my personal experience.
    The thing is, all healers have to do is keep bars from reaching 0. There is no critical mass for heals like there is for damage. Once you reach a certain amount of burst heals start to become irrelevant for keeping focus targets alive, and this should be easily reached in 15v15 matches. Strangely it rarely happens, because the average player is undergeared and underperforms so of course healing stalemates will happen. It's bad balance, but like I said they can't change it without changing everything or everyones gonna have a pretty terrible time.

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    So, I rewatched a bit of that video and are you just not using 3 AP shiftings? Because I'm seeing a lot of variance in the damage dealt by it. That could be why the damage seems so low in most cases.

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  12. #27
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    the gameplay in my sig WAS a healing standoff.
    I was playing a beastmaster. and not only did I switch to paragon and go on a route... I didnt use warlord weapons to do it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsbTdc8gcIk

    and paragon wasnt even an S tier class when that was shot. Imagine an S tier class with warlord weapons?
    heres a screen shot for you
    http://imageshack.us/f/856/ycmq.jpg/

    this match was long because of 2 things.
    both teams had WAY too much passive aoe healing
    Both teams had lots of rogues using aoe, I dont know why tact and sabs were just spamming aoe relentlessly.
    Then I got the bright idea to switch to paragon and assist the one MARKSMAN. you can tell who the two people are who were speced single target and assisting?

    only one Sent and he kept getting bursted down since he was undergeared. but they had a zillion chloros and a warden and everyone was spamming aoe overinflating their numbers
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