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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Daglar's Requested PvP Outline.

  1. #1
    Rift Master zoar's Avatar
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    Default Daglar's Requested PvP Outline.

    It no secret moral as of late has been pretty sub par in these parts and I was asked to create an outline with suggestions on how to improve this games PvP to help boost and maintain the moral and quality of life.

    I would like to start off with some suggestions as requested.

    Dimensions
    -Please donít stress terribly about the anger towards the lack of dimension content right now. Do them correctly! CQ was an udder mess and I feel it was rushed out to shut us up. These could be so important to this game its not even funny. Death matches are a must ranking systems, vote ups and random or preferred ques will also be a huge plus.

    Conquest:
    -Was a huge flop. I think everyone has a hundred opinions and suggestions on this but I would really like to see this be our open world outlet.
    -Throw a keep in there and some demos. I think this will go a longggg way in the quality of it. I hate to reference it and only do because its similar in space but alterac valley comes to mind.
    -You donít have to get rid of extractors or create new maps, just simply add more depth with other important parts to securing a win. Its so repetitive there is just so little to do in conquest besides hang ten on the edge of a zerg.

    Match Making
    -This is probably one of the largest problems here Im not an expert on how mercs effect match making or how small/big the pop is but if there is any way to support player to player match making by sacrificing maybe some que time I would absolutely get on that train. .
    -5v5s match making, it was suggested to have another tab for premade ques. If its not terribly hard to code throw it in there and see how often its used. Obviously at first its not going to be majorly popular because most need incentives to even wipe theyíre arse these days but try it and see if it works.
    -Ultimately I would like to see a tab dedicated to competitive PvP
    -This isn't just about allowing competitive players to get challenges. This helps the new/casual guys just as much by allowing them to get their feet wet without rage quitting the game in disgust at how badly matched teams can be. If you already have an ELO system in place, then really make it a priority to get that thing functioning in addition to game-wide queues to increase the pools for matchmaking. Not much more can be said about this, every aspect of player from the hardcore down the brand new casual wants fair matches.

    Competitive PvP
    -I think the biggest problem with players trickling out of Rift has to do with the seemingly reward less grind. There needs to be a game feature that is connected with that grind once the requirements are met (or hell even just bolstering the requirements so everyone can participate.It doesnít have to be and E sport and it doesnít have to break the game. All in all I think people just need something simple as a number to work for. A title to wear or something that says ďI werk it pretty well in small-scale pvpĒ.

    Developer Communication
    -It goes a long way in the large scheme of things. You can post once a month in the PvP forums and by estimate it seems like moral jumps 200% for a time being.
    -Add that communication with QoL changes and fixes. Maybe not daily but much more often if possible.

    Open world
    -You said ďwith RiftĒ I donít have much do add about open world in Rift exept I think instanced open world scenarios like CQ should be the next outlet for those starving for open world like content.
    - Probably could work another CQ type map for smaller RvR type of PvP. I heard you guys have one in the works maybe you can turn it into a RvR on a smaller scale, no requirements.
    - for some of these larger maps I would suggest bolstering Level 50-59s to level 60 freelancer gear to fill in some player base voids.

    Class abilitys and soul viability.
    -Im no expert on every class but I know My own, and warriors need some help when it comes to viable souls for PvP just being able to compete with other class souls.
    -I would strive for a minimum of 3 souls per class that can serve a VIABLE ROLE in PvP.
    -Hybrids are dead, we fell in love with Rift 3 years ago because we could run a random combo of souls and create our own master pieces. Lets try and bring that back.
    -Playing the spec you enjoy in any PvP makes PvP that much more enjoyable. Regardless of how little or much content there is.
    -Bring melee back to PvP!

    Double gating mechanic on acquiring pvp gear
    -prestige/favor requirement, then the mark requirement. The prestige and favor requirement served as the gating system in the past. With the mark system it is now gated mostly by dailies/weeklies. The prestige requirement is woefully outdated and only serves to alienate casual players and even more so people that are new to the game when they find out that they have to grind out 80 (soon 90) ranks to be on par. While for the hardcore pvpers the prestige is not an issue as they will hit the ranks long before they have the marks to upgrade their gear, it is a huge issue for casual players. The mark system falls more in line with accessibility for casual players. Simply put, remove the prestige requirement for gear and take a second look at favor costs and how much favor a casual player can realistically achieve with low play time. The key here is accessibility, especially for your newer players checking out the game on f2p.
    -The rest can be left largely unchanged. Still have three tiers of gear, with the first being favor only, the second being marks or Rift store, and the third being marks only. That ensures that any concerns about pay-to-win are left out in the cold, allows people the option to pay to not be so far behind, and still allows for the completely free to play method. Something else could be done with the prestige system - wardrobes, reduced vendor costs such as cheaper consumables, etc etc. People that have done the prestige grind shouldn't be left out in the cold, but it shouldn't be a requirement to be on par in the pvp endgame.

    Conquest participation requirement
    -Some people love conquest, some people hate it. As it stands now players are forced to do a significant amount of conquest not just for the cq power perks, but for the insane amount of marks required to get essences, trinket, and seal. Having the pvp dailies offer cq marks was a good idea, but just due to the sheer number of marks that you need, not really a viable alternative. We have to do both pvp dailies and cq and it still takes forever. I understand that the devs want people to participate in something they worked so hard on, and at least some participation requirement is fine, but right now that requirement is way, way, too high. Casual players can't be expected to sit through 3 hour conquest games while premades farm them over and over, just to get 40 measely marks out of the 2k+ required to get an essence.


    Lastly Throw us a bone!
    - is not so much a glaring issue, but something that would really go to show players on the pvp side of the house that you care about them too. You guys have all these awesome dev tools that allow you to crank out pve content at incredible rates. Use them on the pvp side too, just for the sake of experimenting and letting us get some content, and see what's a hit and what's not. Prime example is the guys wanting 5v5 stuff. Throw them a bone with some 5v5 versions of existing maps. You literally have to do nothing other than limit the team sizes to 5 and either remove or drastically reduce the objective count. Put it in the same queue system as the other warfronts and let pugs enjoy it too. Come up with some new maps of the same game modes, ie a black garden style game mode but in Maklamos' room. You guys already have the new game mode on old map going on, spice it up with old game mode on some new maps. Fill up that warfront queue list with some variety.


    If I didnít touch on anything or missed out on something please fill in the comments below. This is a community thread for developers eyes. One that was specifically asked for by the dagman himself and was promised to be taken seriously.

    I didnít get into terrible detail because that wasnít what I was asked to do. I was asked to portray my perfect PvP game in terms of whatís possible here in Rift. Sorry If my views do not exactly reach Everyones I tried to be as well rounded as I could.

    ****Please do not turn this into a vent thread, do not drop your peen here and do not belittle others posts. I would love to see where we can take this and what kind of compromise we can come to.*****

    Thanks again Daglar for the face time.
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  2. #2
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoar
    -Hybrids are dead, we fell in love with Rift 3 years ago because we could run a random combo of souls and create our own master pieces. Lets try and bring that back.
    This. You've answered the question I've been asking myself for a long time now, "why don't I like this game as much anymore?" That's it, right there.
    Last edited by Wallowitz; 09-15-2013 at 02:46 AM.

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    Telaran
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    Default Bravo!

    If even half of these things take place I will stick around. Love the PvP mechanics of this game, hate the PvP.

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    Telaran
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    Rift Master zoar's Avatar
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    Thanks guys, and thanks for the reddit post I didnt even think of that.

    Also wanted to thank fafa for his brain storming while I wasnt home.



    I tried to grab as many ideas from as many types of players as I could. Again suggestions are welcomed with open arms.
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  6. #6
    Shield of Telara
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    The part about new maps with the existing game modes doesn't have to be (and imo would be better if it wasn't) a permanent thing on the warfront queue list. Having a map rotation for the different game modes on their respective team sizes would be pretty cool - similar to what was originally done with escalation maps in their beginnings but much more frequently than just one of them at time and only on the weekend. ie one day 15 man domination is codex, the next its karthan, one day 10 man domination is black garden, the next its a different map, one day 15 man martyrdom is library, the next its a different map. Variety, but keep the total number of available within reason so that players aren't spread too thin across all of them, and adjust dailies/weeklies accordingly.

    Also, I'm anxiously awaiting the halloween version of black garden again. That thing was ****ing awesome. Do more fun stuff like that.
    No French kisses, and no hippopotamuses.

  7. #7
    Ascendant
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    I have lost all hope for PvP in this game as of last week I have quit playing. I expect nothing.

  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    Im in the same situation right now , ive been playing more than 2 months now and i just cant get myself into the game anymore like before.. the more i play the more i start hating my char.. but i was fun though when i was at low lvl and keep messing up my builds and figuring out what was the best spec for pvp,then i realize that when you go into hybrid you're just weakening yourself.. why did i even spent money on this >.<

  9. #9
    Champion of Telara TedO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fafa View Post
    The part about new maps with the existing game modes doesn't have to be (and imo would be better if it wasn't) a permanent thing on the warfront queue list. Having a map rotation for the different game modes on their respective team sizes would be pretty cool - similar to what was originally done with escalation maps in their beginnings but much more frequently than just one of them at time and only on the weekend. ie one day 15 man domination is codex, the next its karthan, one day 10 man domination is black garden, the next its a different map, one day 15 man martyrdom is library, the next its a different map. Variety, but keep the total number of available within reason so that players aren't spread too thin across all of them, and adjust dailies/weeklies accordingly.

    Also, I'm anxiously awaiting the halloween version of black garden again. That thing was ****ing awesome. Do more fun stuff like that.
    This is sort of the idea I have been espousing, maybe a bit more simplistic, but I'll take whatever we can get.

    Perhaps newer maps to throw in the rotation on occassion outside of the same maps themselves.
    Last edited by TedO; 09-15-2013 at 09:33 AM.
    Elimination@Faeblight <Philanthropy> aka Gramps, formerly of MMAC, Squabs Squad, Mobile Death Squad,FoTM,Temporal Insurgence

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    Plane Touched Malcanthe's Avatar
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    I've been trying to get my mainly PvE guild interested in PvP without that much success. Here are some barriers which keep them from really trying it:
    • No place to practice - we can't even duel because of their lack of PvP gear. There's not even a PvP dummy to my knowledge! As a result PvE players have no idea what to expect and fear the unknown.
    • Backwards rewards curve - I can't believe Trion is introducing a new PvP tier now. If I understand the new system correctly, a purely PvE player would now need R70 before seeing any reward over R1. Instead, gear rewards should come more quickly at first, and taper off later.
    • Level matching - unlike PvE, you can't mentor down or up. Would it be possible to allow players to get mentored up one or two brackets if they are teaming with someone in that bracket? GW2 seems to do this with some success. Not everyone is level 60.

    About pre-made queuing, I liked Zoar's suggestions but I think that would be death for my guild. We're just trying to start, so we're probably not as good as the average PUG team, which is composed of fairly experienced players (although maybe it's just because I'm often in matched warfronts). If we went up against premades exclusively we would just get rolled over and over. At least a bad player can win almost 50% of the time by lucking out with teams (and use that experience to learn). A bad team getting repeatedly spawn-camped isn't going to learn much before their morale gives out.

  11. #11
    Ascendant lol r u mad's Avatar
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    Great post Zoar, I will add some things to this thread later as well, mostly about my ideas for competitive pvp

    http://www.twitch.tv/Screamoaktown - Live streaming 5v5's
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  12. #12
    Ascendant Wrastion's Avatar
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    1. 58-61 point abilities killed hybrids. They became must-haves, and you can't spec for most souls past 15 points subspec. This makes you pretty much like almost everyone else, especially considering in pvp for most callings you had to take the same main soul to do a particular job. i.e. inq for dps ranged cleric, Rb for warrior. Rogue is probably the best calling to look at for variety and synergy. i.e. you don't get 4 buffs all at once @ 61 points that are absolutely needed.

    Ideas could be to split them. i..e at 44 points Rb for example you can have 2 avatars active (from a talent already in existence). @ 61 points you can have 4 active. So its nice to have the 61 point, but not 4 in 1.


    2. I believe people are willing to wait a little longer for better matched wf's. I'd rather wait 5 more minutes for a black garden that only is able to shoot 5v5 then throw me in instantly with r50's and r80's in a 10v10 that will most likely be a complete route for one side or the other, and no fun for either side.

    A separate que for premades would be nice as well, along with a number. What I mean by that is it would be nice for me to click a button and see if there are any premades already in que waiting for a wf. The objective of premades is to match up against other challenging players. Why not make it easy for us just to find each other?

    3. Some kind of ranking would be nice. PVE has firsts for doing this or that, and you can gain some kind of notoriety from raiding. PVP in Rift has the forums, and if you want less people bit***** on the forums giving them in game ranks and or ladders or tiers or something would go a long way. That way they could bit** in game instead. lol.

    Just my main things I think would help the most for moral. Any 1 would help.

  13. #13
    Champion of Telara TedO's Avatar
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    They said in a past stream that hybrids are a priority, and there has been a mention of them looking at an ELO type of rankings.

    One of the bigger issues is that we get little to no communication with perhaps what maybe incoming and/or what is being considered. In light of that, there is a an issue with people not paying attention also when they do say something, and repeating incessantly about issues that has been ackowledged already to where it has to be repeated over an over.

    What I suggest to do , IMO, is find a small circle of players for input, similar to what they do with raid content and Dungeons on the PTS, if they don't already.

    I'm sure it gets problematic when they have to put their bull **** filter on while reading thru alot of input from others, with highjacked threads of genuine input by intent. It is hard to truly see what is needed when you try and look thru threads of the same complaints by incoming players that has been repeated for several years now...seriously folks, there is a search option, stop being lazy and use it.

    As for Rift being a casual player based MMO at its core, I think that what few dedicated PvPers that have stuck it out over the long haul have already resigned themselves to that fact, but it also are those same dedicated players that have some justification in feeling slighted. I realise I can not say as that I am one of those that fall under that premise, I left for good reason.

    The lack of even something new, that doesn't seem half baked would go a long ways towards QoL issues that long term players have invested in Rift, irrespective of monetary input, time in and of itself is an investment in its own right.
    Elimination@Faeblight <Philanthropy> aka Gramps, formerly of MMAC, Squabs Squad, Mobile Death Squad,FoTM,Temporal Insurgence

  14. #14
    Rift Master zoar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fafa View Post

    Also, I'm anxiously awaiting the halloween version of black garden again. That thing was ****ing awesome. Do more fun stuff like that.
    The dev responsable for creating these holiday events is pretty passionate about them too. I dont think there was one I didnt enjoy. Monster mash inc.
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    Rift Master zoar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lol r u mad View Post
    Great post Zoar, I will add some things to this thread later as well, mostly about my ideas for competitive pvp
    Thanks man, I know I didnt get into too much detail about because I was really expecting players to fill in some of those gaps for example you guys and the competitive part.


    Rest assured Im in 100% agreement with you when it comes to competitive end game content.


    Quote Originally Posted by shortycool View Post
    I have lost all hope for PvP in this game as of last week I have quit playing. I expect nothing.
    Its okay to expect nothing, I have learned to do this over time to. But if this is an opertunity to KNOW you will be heard and you're content opinions will be read I would take it.

    It doesnt mean you have to regain hope it will all magicly happen.



    I dont think Daglar (in fact I know) doesnt care about us. He legitimately worries about his game everyday. I think CQ wasa big let down for them and it killed a lot of motivation.

    Im hopeing that an adult conversation with doable requests might bring back some of that motivation and give us a new shiney inthe process.
    Last edited by zoar; 09-15-2013 at 01:29 PM.
    ●○⊙PvP Tips, Tricks, & Things to Know!⊙○●
    RIP <Squab Squad> & <FoTM> Join our Facebook! Rift PvP Alliance
    Zoar P80 Warrior. Add fluff insentives to 5v5s. Watch participation grow, and premades abbandon pug warfronts.

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