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Thread: The Truth about PvP Armor Stats & Increases

  1. #16
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    The gap in stats caused by gear is very small and serves only as a small benefit for time spent in the game. This is rewarding. I and many others like to be rewarded for our time investments. Its a hell of alot better than people rewarded for no time investments. You know those people that log in for one or two warfronts and never learn to play the game. It helps weed them out so you can eventually get to groups of better players. Of course there are still baddies at the end of the rainbow but there is only so much a gear gap system and a rank system can do. Surely you have to see by now that which you state you hate (gear gap) is the very thing that gives you what you wish for, (people being forced to learn how to play.). Trion use to be much more demanding in this when high rank was P8. But people cried foul or wolfe and left before SL. So at the onset of SL we were given high ranks and the gear system was modified to be more forgiving to newer/less ranked players as opposed to being more friendly to skilled/time invested players. Thats probly why CQ is most rewarding for favor and prestige, while warfronts are more rewarding for freelancer/warlord marks.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raen Ryong View Post
    Approximately 1.5k plat is not a time investment?
    Not pvp time. I can tell you how much plat i made this week.

    Define "staple".

    I really don't understand how this is difficult to logically understand ~_~

    CQ power adds x advantage. You do not have CQ power. You are lacking x advantage. Anyone who has CQ power has x advantage over you. How is that hard to logically determine? You are at a relative disadvantage without conquest power.
    Disadvantage would indicate that someone with CQ would always have the edge over me. Experience shows thats not the case. CQ power does not make or break anything in pvp (especially when bolstering and damage and healing reductions are added, -after- stat calculation) because it doesnt have a that big an impact to make a bad player better.
    Its not a staple because not everyone is maxed out or even participate in CQ, even top tier players. But according to your logic, they are at a disadvantage to anyone with max CQ. Which isnt the case.

    ... synergy crystal??
    Most of which suck??
    Any real advantage they have arent prominent in a pvp setting aside from warrior ones.
    Then again, you need pve to get that.

    PA is not a PvP advantage? Do the stats not transfer over to PvP or something?
    Its not something that is inherently quickly accumulated in a pvp setting. A Pve player would have more.


    he is just not including things like CQ Power (which, by the way, is roughly a 10% increase to certain stats on its own as well as 6% movement speed).
    Which isnt a gear advantage. Its whether or not one chooses to participate in CQ.


    The biggest excuse anyone has to why they are suck at pvp is gear. Which is minor. Every other attribute that can influence pvp, comes from pve participation, thus giving pve players the advantage. which most pvp exclusive player wouldnt have.
    Yet most of the top players, dont pve much. Some not at all. Unless you are saying that pvp players are at a disadvantage to pve players. Which im sure many wouldn't agree with. Not in WF where coordination is what wins games.
    Bad players contribute to losses in wf, not gear, not predominately. When someone wants to play druid, and wonders why he loses, is it because CQ power? Or synergy Crystals? You think if he had that, it would have a made a difference in him playing a bad pvp spec?
    Get real. Bads are bad because they are bad.


    The only time any of those things mean anything significant, is in owpvp. And i know thats not what you are speaking about.
    Last edited by Eughe; 07-03-2013 at 12:09 AM.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    Not pvp time. I can tell you how much plat i made this week.



    Disadvantage would indicate that someone with CQ would always have the edge over me. Experience shows thats not the case. CQ power does not make or break anything in pvp (especially when bolstering and damage and healing reductions are added, -after- stat calculation) because it doesnt have a that big an impact to make a bad player better.
    Its not a staple because not everyone is maxed out or even participate in CQ, even top tier players. But according to your logic, they are at a disadvantage to anyone with max CQ. Which isnt the case.



    Most of which suck??
    Any real advantage they have arent prominent in a pvp setting aside from warrior ones.
    Then again, you need pve to get that.


    Its not something that is inherently quickly accumulated in a pvp setting. A Pve player would have more.




    Which isnt a gear advantage. Its whether or not one chooses to participate in CQ.


    The biggest excuse anyone has to why they are suck at pvp is gear. Which is minor. Every other attribute that can influence pvp, comes from pve participation, thus giving pve players the advantage. which most pvp exclusive player wouldnt have.
    Yet most of the top players, dont pve much. Some not at all. Unless you are saying that pvp players are at a disadvantage to pve players. Which im sure many wouldn't agree with. Not in WF where coordination is what wins games.
    Bad players contribute to losses in wf, not gear, not predominately. When someone wants to play druid, and wonders why he loses, is it because CQ power? Or synergy Crystals? You think if he had that, it would have a made a difference in him playing a bad pvp spec?
    Get real. Bads are bad because they are bad.


    The only time any of those things mean anything significant, is in owpvp. And i know thats not what you are speaking about.
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  4. #19
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    I think you're interpreting me to say "you must have <x thing> or you WILL lose".

    Not pvp time. I can tell you how much plat i made this week.
    Whether it's PvP time or not is irrelevant - it's still a time investment required to bridge a gear gap. Doesn't matter if it's PvP, PvE or doing 10,000 jumps. The argument about how suitable a grind is for its intended purpose would consider these things, but not when considering the nature of the gap itself (ie: does it exist and if so, how large is it?).

    Disadvantage would indicate that someone with CQ would always have the edge over me. Experience shows thats not the case.
    Yes, that is exactly the case. Imagine your identical clone - exactly the same as you in all ways. Add CQ power to them. Who has the advantage?

    Most of which suck??
    Any real advantage they have arent prominent in a pvp setting aside from warrior ones.
    Then again, you need pve to get that.
    To use a few examples, the Marksman one is a significant damage boost. Riftblade, Tempest and Inquisitor ones are significant damage boosts. Sentinel one is significant invocation boost. Purifier one arguably makes the spec workable. Warden one increases your healing power significantly (although, granted, it is Warden we are talking about). Defiler one significantly increases the power of its HoT. Chloromancer one is a 235 Spellpower gain, and the Pyromancer one a 210 Spellpower gain. I have a harder time finding crystals that do suck than don't.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raen Ryong View Post
    I think you're interpreting me to say "you must have <x thing> or you WILL lose".
    Thats the mantra you preach quite honestly.



    Whether it's PvP time or not is irrelevant
    Its very relevant. Because its a pvp problem and pvp only players have already proven that its not a problem at all. Its a minor bump. Especially when considering damage and heal nerfs, making all non pvp gained advantages, minute.

    - it's still a time investment required to bridge a gear gap.
    The gear gap 10%.

    You are speaking time investment and thats a completely different story.
    What you should be asking is:

    Why does someone who play more than me, have advantage over me?
    And of course, ill chime that i play twice a week and know very few who can actually out do me, even those who play more than i do.

    Doesn't matter if it's PvP, PvE or doing 10,000 jumps.
    It matters greatly, because it invalidates all complaints when those who do not pve come out on top.
    Especially against those who participate in both.
    And invalidates the gear complaint, when gear difference between average pvpers, are minor.

    PA being one of the major contributing factors, which is also influenced more by people who pve, or constantly alt (and more than likely level them through pve)
    The argument about how suitable a grind is for its intended purpose would consider these things, but not when considering the nature of the gap itself (ie: does it exist and if so, how large is it?).
    Grind is grind. And they made grind easier for pvp. All one needs to do is participate and you will get the necessary tools to be a competent and productive member of a group. The most taxing thing would be synergy crystals (which i had to do endless amount of pve dailies when i realize they they were quicker than CQ, go fig. and i still dont have all of them)
    However, in then that does not contribute to who wins or lose.

    In fact, the biggest contribution to a group is not gear, but spec. Thats a valid argument.


    Yes, that is exactly the case. Imagine your identical clone - exactly the same as you in all ways. Add CQ power to them. Who has the advantage?
    The one who pops his CDs first.

    To use a few examples, the Marksman one is a significant damage boost.
    Doesnt look so significant.

    Riftblade, Tempest
    "Warrior ones"

    and Inquisitor ones are significant damage boosts.
    Not really.

    Sentinel one is significant invocation boost.
    Not really. Not after heal reductions. The only one that actually received a noticeable boost is subtle, and thats if you go full 61 we already discussed the that to death.

    Purifier one arguably makes the spec workable.
    Not with that 3 second cast. Had it helped symbols, then yes.

    Warden one increases your healing power significantly (although, granted, it is Warden we are talking about).
    Warden.

    Defiler one significantly increases the power of its HoT.
    HoT. But yes..i guess if thats what you feel is making defiler good o_o or better.


    And you didnt mention cabby is probably the only other significant gain crystal (aside from the warden and shaman one which are the only 3 that gives that actual soul a significant increase in power, but warden and shaman...)

    Chloromancer one is a 235 Spellpower gain, and the Pyromancer one a 210 Spellpower gain. I have a harder time finding crystals that do suck than don't.

    Ok.


    So out of 36 crystals. 4 of which arent significant be it class its (shaman, puri) in or stats (Inqui, defiler[its a hot] i mean..., senti) Cabby and warden being the only functional ones that increases its proposed function signifcantly. The 2 warrior and the 2 mages and i guess the MM.

    A total of 7 out of 36 and you have a harder time finding crystals that do suck? I have a hard time taking you seriously.

    Everyone needs an excuse as to why they arent that good. I guess all the puri can say they are terrible because they didnt get an extra 1200 heals with wards, and CQ power and plat. Yeah, that MUST be it.

  6. #21
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    Crystal damage/heal bonuses are not reduced by valor. Neither are trinket effects.

    Marksman +150 damage per hit (also enhancing any of your munitions) is between a 10-40%~ increase in damage per hit depending on which attack you're using.
    600 extra healing per invocation is ~10% more per crucial, more on lower tiers. Less if critical/Nyol's Hope.
    400 extra damage while Scourge is on makes Inquis hit like a truck. You may scoff and say "it's just 400" but when you're doing around 3k or so a hit, 400/3000 is quite a big increase.

    HoT. But yes..i guess if thats what you feel is making defiler good o_o or better.
    Yes... an increase in utility or healing power does make Defiler better. A Defiler with that crystal is better than one without, by whatever amount. Hideous Reconstruction is a decent spell to throw on if you get a spare GCD here and there (and are not being bled dry of your mana).

    Thats the mantra you preach quite honestly.
    No, that's just how you interpret it, with comments like this:

    Why does someone who play more than me, have advantage over me?
    And of course, ill chime that i play twice a week and know very few who can actually out do me, even those who play more than i do.
    You are COMPLETELY missing the point of the argument. You are diverting it. My argument is not "gear always wins" - my argument is "gear gives advantage". I'm not saying that since your gear is not perfect, you must therefore perform poorly. I'm not even going to respond to any posts in future which attempt to derail the discussion.

    The one who pops his CDs first.
    No, this is your identical clone - you mirror each other's moves. Are you still going to claim that the one with CQ power will gain no advantage? How about a cloned you with max gear vs a clone you with full bolster. Identical performances?

    This is why our arguments have such a disconnect here - you are interpreting what I am saying as "you NEED gear to win" which I have never claimed.
    Last edited by Raen Ryong; 07-03-2013 at 01:09 AM.
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  7. #22
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    The real takeaway here is that Warlord gear makes a fairly small difference to "stats", which gives a small advantage. Then once you start adding in all of the things you have to grind for, that difference gets larger. Not enough to make the difference between a good and bad player, but larger.

    Then you throw in the best Synergy crystals and all hell breaks loose. I use the same MM build that pretty much all the top Rogues use, and it's easy to tell who is WL and who is not when I fight them. It's easy - their munitions are the ones hitting for ~250 each hit, while mine are hitting for ~100. That's how the MM crystal works. By extension, whatever ability they shot me with also hit for that same amount of extra damage. So yeah...they have a small stats gap over me, which makes them hit a little harder and have a couple thousand more HP, and then they get to hit for an extra ~300 damage every GCD on top of that from a single piece of gear.

    That is not the difference between a good player and a bad player, but it is also not insignificant by any stretch of the imagination.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calo View Post
    The real takeaway here is that Warlord gear makes a fairly small difference to "stats", which gives a small advantage. Then once you start adding in all of the things you have to grind for, that difference gets larger. Not enough to make the difference between a good and bad player, but larger.

    Then you throw in the best Synergy crystals and all hell breaks loose. I use the same MM build that pretty much all the top Rogues use, and it's easy to tell who is WL and who is not when I fight them. It's easy - their munitions are the ones hitting for ~250 each hit, while mine are hitting for ~100. That's how the MM crystal works. By extension, whatever ability they shot me with also hit for that same amount of extra damage. So yeah...they have a small stats gap over me, which makes them hit a little harder and have a couple thousand more HP, and then they get to hit for an extra ~300 damage every GCD on top of that from a single piece of gear.

    That is not the difference between a good player and a bad player, but it is also not insignificant by any stretch of the imagination.
    So what your saying is MM crystal needs a nerf?
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    how do people with a straight face say the a rank 80 player vs a new player doesnt have a massive advantage in pvp. its embarassing.

    im rank 80 with bis runes 800+ pa. the difference between me and someone who started when free to play was announced who is just hitting 60 is beyond a noticable difference.

    it will take that new player months before they are on a similar gear level as me. and if you pvp you know the difference in getting hit by a player with max dps pa and bis gear runes vs getting hit by a fresh 60.

    saying you can "buy" runes like it doesnt take a ton of time to get plat and what not especially if you just pvp is just wrong.

    i understand people like to be overgeared and that this isnt a fps yada yada but dont try to cover up the major advantage players like us have over new players.

    in a perfect world i would love a seperate instance with normalized stats (kind if like hardmore in fps) where everyone had base stats across the board and it was strictly about skill.

  10. #25
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    Gear makes a massive difference.
    This is a fact.
    Don't try to justify otherwise.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landstalker View Post
    So what your saying is MM crystal needs a nerf?
    Honestly? Yes, PvE synergy crystals have no place in PvP, especially when not all boost PvP relevant abilities, but the ones that do bring those specs over the top. Bring back the old stat slot + valor synergies from 50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raen Ryong View Post
    Now add CQ Power, Synergy Crystal, PA (and are weapons included in that? Not seeing a weapon DPS increase which is valuable on half of the classes).
    There are also talents that improve with stats or are based off them so not only do the base attacks get a boost but they receive moe since they deal damage or gain hp based off endurance or gear. For example chloro gains hp based off gear endurance, some warrior skills work off attack power or have procs that do. Point is with more stats crit chance goes up and passives get a boost which, while minor, add more as well ad what you are mentioning he forgot.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    how do people with a straight face say the a rank 80 player vs a new player doesnt have a massive advantage in pvp. its embarassing.

    im rank 80 with bis runes 800+ pa. the difference between me and someone who started when free to play was announced who is just hitting 60 is beyond a noticable difference.

    it will take that new player months before they are on a similar gear level as me. and if you pvp you know the difference in getting hit by a player with max dps pa and bis gear runes vs getting hit by a fresh 60.

    saying you can "buy" runes like it doesnt take a ton of time to get plat and what not especially if you just pvp is just wrong.

    i understand people like to be overgeared and that this isnt a fps yada yada but dont try to cover up the major advantage players like us have over new players.

    in a perfect world i would love a seperate instance with normalized stats (kind if like hardmore in fps) where everyone had base stats across the board and it was strictly about skill.
    It is not a huge gap. See math on page one. A new player can close within 2-5% gap difference easily within a few weeks if they really want to since they can buy with credits the freelancer gear. They them can probably get most if not all of the warlord gear in probably little more than a month. Not able to check the weekly spread and marks cost atm. Point is its very minimal and forces people to learn to play better before they do have the gear. Everyone had to do it, except the f2p generation has it much more easier.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landstalker View Post
    It is not a huge gap. See math on page one. A new player can close within 2-5% gap difference easily within a few weeks if they really want to since they can buy with credits the freelancer gear. They them can probably get most if not all of the warlord gear in probably little more than a month. Not able to check the weekly spread and marks cost atm. Point is its very minimal and forces people to learn to play better before they do have the gear. Everyone had to do it, except the f2p generation has it much more easier.
    your figures are incredibly misleading. there is more to the gap than the armor slots, as mentioned countless times already.

    you've got to be trolling at this point
    Last edited by fD123; 07-03-2013 at 06:37 AM.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    Runes can be bought by everyone. Thats not a gear gap when its easily accessible with no time investment.

    CQ power is not staple. Hell, i dont have any CQ power, thus i must automagically be at a disadvantage (i'm not)

    Very little difference between gear.

    The only major difference between a new player and older player is PA and thats not even a pvp advantage. If you pve regularly, you, on average, would have more PA than that of a person who doesnt.


    So, this is about gear. And that, according to the OP, is about a 10% difference.
    If you want to add seals and trinkets and etc, its probably a bit more.
    CQ adds straight up vengeance. I think you need to read up on that if you want to keep your CQ is useless statement.

    If 10% was truly the overall difference a new 60 has on average how much hp vs a full geared person? Not sure about you but its usually 4-6k which is not 10%. Think you guys are missing out on some stuff here.

    More stats add to passives in the talent trees. Crystals add a very big advantage.

    Lots of oops not adding that in this thread.

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