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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: The Good and Bad of the Live Stream

  1. #16
    Telaran iamsil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rythandil View Post
    Okay. Since you obviously know everything about designing the back and front end of a good pvp game, why don't you tell us, in detail, exactly what needs to be fixed?

    and while I'm waiting for that response that will *never* come, maybe you should take some classes on how to effectively present an argument.
    is this an example of how to effectively present an argument? maybe you should stick to calling it pseudo intellectualism, because that's what it is. don't be a nit, this dev team is perfectly capable of redesigning the pvp system and adding rated warfronts/arenas.
    Last edited by iamsil; 06-14-2013 at 07:29 PM.
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  2. #17
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    I certainly get frustrated by the PvP community at times, and I'm sorry that it shows through -- I am only human however. The reason I get frustrated is because I know I can never make you guys happy. I know you guys want more content - and most PvPers simply don't agree on what that content should be to begin with.

    I will share a little secret with you, I am the person that has built most of the PvP content in RIFT. If I didn't like it, I wouldn't have built it in the first place.

    I don't mind competition - I really love competition, and I've run 5 v 5's in game before. However, this game will never be balanced enough to be an E-Sport. That is not the direction the game has ever headed or could ever be easily headed. To make it closer to an E-Sport would take a massive amount of resources that this team has simply never had even at it's peak.

    I do absolutely hate our PvP ruleset on PvP servers. I think they are archaic, terrible, and one of the bigger mistakes that the RIFT team as a whole has ever made. I'd love to change that rule-set to something more workable and actually fun - as I've mentioned a few times now. I don't know when we will be able to find the time to do that.

    If you guys think you are critical of RIFT from the outside, you have no idea how critical I am of RIFT from the inside. We face our problems and issues every day and try to improve where we can, when we can.

    ~Daglar
    Good post dude.
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  3. #18
    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    The first step,IMO, would be to create separate ruleset and templates for pvp and pve for all the talents for each class. Then they would need to add their own internal modifiers.This may mean reducing the global modifier for a more redefined internal modifiers. Like valor/healing will be globally reduced 50% and then internal modifier for talent A can be valor2 reduced 20% and talent B valor2 reduced 10% for those talents or healing2 reduced 20% for talent c and talent d healing2 reduced 20% etc. Even more modifications for the base talent.. Instead of 50% it is 20% damage reduction/absorbion. Instead of 100% healing it is 50% healing for full heal etc.

    Without doing this primarily they can't do much else for pvpers. This is a big task which will take about 6 months of live testing and on the fly changes which I think they won't put the effort into it at this point.

  4. #19
    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    Quite honestly, if they wanna fiddle around with pvp stuff on live, they can pick a map on seastone and make it have its own rule sets that can be changed on a whim.
    Like shimmersand, I mean, who really goes there anymore? Even new players.

    It was always the least populated area and the quests didnt really take you that far before you out leveled it and way after you finished the achievements.


    Maybe around the area with the elites? Probably clear some of the mobs?


    :shrugs:

    It's not like people won't go there if you say "hey new pvp testing in shimmersand this week"

  5. #20
    Ascendant the_real_seebs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    I do absolutely hate our PvP ruleset on PvP servers. I think they are archaic, terrible, and one of the bigger mistakes that the RIFT team as a whole has ever made. I'd love to change that rule-set to something more workable and actually fun - as I've mentioned a few times now. I don't know when we will be able to find the time to do that.
    I bet I am not the only person who is now fantasically curious about what you think is wrong with it, and what you think could make it better.
    You can play WoW in any MMO. You don't have to play WoW in RIFT. Oh, and no, RIFT is not a WoW clone. Not having fun any more? Learn to play, noob! I don't speak for Riftui, but I moderate stuff there. Just came back? Welcome back! Here's what's changed. (Updated for 2.5!)

  6. #21
    Sword of Telara Ts117's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iamsil View Post
    holy **** this post is such a cop out LOL. make arenas, balance the game, hire new people if that's what it takes to balance pvp, reach out to the community, there's so many options to fix the ****ty pvp in this game. you can't have a game with good pve and then bad pvp and expect it to consistently grow.
    oh and if you think that lowbies being ganked is a problem on pvp servers, i hope you realize how ****ing not important AT all that is to the growth of the game. face it, the end game pvp sucks and that is where this game suffers the most. fix it. balance the game and add competitive rated warfronts or arenas, or pvp will die (again?).
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  7. #22
    Shield of Telara Division's Avatar
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    edit: Deleted - wrong thread;o
    Last edited by Division; 06-14-2013 at 08:04 PM.

  8.   This is the last Rift Team post in this thread.   #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_real_seebs View Post
    I bet I am not the only person who is now fantasically curious about what you think is wrong with it, and what you think could make it better.
    I'm not going to do a long drawn out post on it tonight but lets start with a few highlights that I think most will agree with are not great:

    Two faction system and easily unbalanced sides - I'm more a fan of Free for All / Alliances
    Instanced PvE content available - Oh look, the population is hiding
    Instanced PvP content available - Instant action is great, unless you want it in the world
    Separate gear for PvP and PvE - Because of instant action PvP
    Nothing of Meaning to fight over - Because the games focus is primarily on Instances at a certain point.

    From my standpoint as a /player/ not just a developer for a moment - all of the above contributes to a terrible model for World PvP. If you want your actions to have meaning in a PvP game it is my feeling that you need to be able to affect a persons core end game advancement - whatever it is. You need to be able to /take/ something away from someone - not just beat them in a match.

    The type of player it takes to play in my ideal PvP environment is a hard player. A person that is there to play with their group of friends and carve out their corner of the world. They are not driven by hate, they are driven by the spirit of competition and seek to dominate their foes. The sort of people that, when you do have a good engagement with the enemy, you go to your external forums and you talk with one another - you become comrades with your foes due to the spirit of competition and you build respect for those that you are fighting.

    I do love and enjoy drop in and drop out content as well but its a bit opposed to the spirit of World PvP. I've always liked Warfronts/Scenarios/Battlegrounds in various games - and I've loved the sorts of communities that can arise from that - when you KNOW peoples names because they are bad *****. I know names of players like Tyaus, Bleeds, Meduza, Aborticus - the people you run into over and over that build a reputation for being great.

    As for folks calling me a carebear, I've got 99 problems and being a carebear ain't one son. I've done far more than my share of virtual murder over the years. I've been part of alliances that have so heavily destabilized server balance in games that the other sides ceased to log in due to being so massively dominated.

    ~Daglar

  9. #24
    Ascendant Baramos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    I'm not going to do a long drawn out post on it tonight but lets start with a few highlights that I think most will agree with are not great:

    Two faction system and easily unbalanced sides - I'm more a fan of Free for All / Alliances
    Instanced PvE content available - Oh look, the population is hiding
    Instanced PvP content available - Instant action is great, unless you want it in the world
    Separate gear for PvP and PvE - Because of instant action PvP
    Nothing of Meaning to fight over - Because the games focus is primarily on Instances at a certain point.
    You pretty much nailed it, that does sum up a lot of what I look for in pvp.

  10. #25
    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    Alright, so it seems you know what he problem is.

    Don't you think strong holds and city ownership would help?


    There is nothing wrong with factions. Problem, faction pvp comes with territory ownership, not necessarily natural safe zones.

    Being able to control areas, including lower level areas, would assist faction based pvp, because you -do- lose progression. I mean, that's why someone people loved early rift (and some hated it too) because if you do not do events, you can't progress because mobs took over

    Do you think territory ownership can be a thing for pvp servers? Factions would not only have to actively defend areas, but maintain them? (Guards, shields, etc)?

    I mean, mobs can do it already, I don't see players can't either.

    They can't be mindless when it comes to cities (maybe hubs can be taken by a group or w/e) but actively fighting for a benefit (faction buff? Hidden/limited items/temp flashy costumes and mounts, etc.) would definitely bring the skittish to the yard.

  11. #26
    Ascendant micshaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    I've been part of alliances that have so heavily destabilized server balance in games that the other sides ceased to log in due to being so massively dominated.

    ~Daglar
    Real men re-roll underdog, <3

  12. #27
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    I certainly get frustrated by the PvP community at times, and I'm sorry that it shows through -- I am only human however. The reason I get frustrated is because I know I can never make you guys happy. I know you guys want more content - and most PvPers simply don't agree on what that content should be to begin with.

    I will share a little secret with you, I am the person that has built most of the PvP content in RIFT. If I didn't like it, I wouldn't have built it in the first place.

    I don't mind competition - I really love competition, and I've run 5 v 5's in game before. However, this game will never be balanced enough to be an E-Sport. That is not the direction the game has ever headed or could ever be easily headed. To make it closer to an E-Sport would take a massive amount of resources that this team has simply never had even at it's peak.

    I do absolutely hate our PvP ruleset on PvP servers. I think they are archaic, terrible, and one of the bigger mistakes that the RIFT team as a whole has ever made. I'd love to change that rule-set to something more workable and actually fun - as I've mentioned a few times now. I don't know when we will be able to find the time to do that.

    If you guys think you are critical of RIFT from the outside, you have no idea how critical I am of RIFT from the inside. We face our problems and issues every day and try to improve where we can, when we can.

    ~Daglar
    So how do we as a community help you influence decisions made by the Rift team so you can look after us better in the future? Polls? Signed surveys?

    You can't please everyone, but you can turn those driven by hate into hard players you mentioned by changing the pvp rulesets one step at a time.

  13. #28
    Champion Serjackums's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    I'm not going to do a long drawn out post on it tonight but lets start with a few highlights that I think most will agree with are not great:

    Two faction system and easily unbalanced sides - I'm more a fan of Free for All / Alliances
    Instanced PvE content available - Oh look, the population is hiding
    Instanced PvP content available - Instant action is great, unless you want it in the world
    Separate gear for PvP and PvE - Because of instant action PvP
    Nothing of Meaning to fight over - Because the games focus is primarily on Instances at a certain point.

    From my standpoint as a /player/ not just a developer for a moment - all of the above contributes to a terrible model for World PvP. If you want your actions to have meaning in a PvP game it is my feeling that you need to be able to affect a persons core end game advancement - whatever it is. You need to be able to /take/ something away from someone - not just beat them in a match.

    The type of player it takes to play in my ideal PvP environment is a hard player. A person that is there to play with their group of friends and carve out their corner of the world. They are not driven by hate, they are driven by the spirit of competition and seek to dominate their foes. The sort of people that, when you do have a good engagement with the enemy, you go to your external forums and you talk with one another - you become comrades with your foes due to the spirit of competition and you build respect for those that you are fighting.

    I do love and enjoy drop in and drop out content as well but its a bit opposed to the spirit of World PvP. I've always liked Warfronts/Scenarios/Battlegrounds in various games - and I've loved the sorts of communities that can arise from that - when you KNOW peoples names because they are bad *****. I know names of players like Tyaus, Bleeds, Meduza, Aborticus - the people you run into over and over that build a reputation for being great.

    As for folks calling me a carebear, I've got 99 problems and being a carebear ain't one son. I've done far more than my share of virtual murder over the years. I've been part of alliances that have so heavily destabilized server balance in games that the other sides ceased to log in due to being so massively dominated.

    ~Daglar
    Good. Very good. I think most would agree with this.
    Also amazing that you mention Aborticus. Very few remember his initial toon name unfortunately.
    But he's still here with us(:
    Serjackums
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  14. #29
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AceinHole View Post
    The Bad:

    1) No arenas ever (already knew this but Daglar looked annoyed that he had to answer it yet again).
    this really belongs in the "good" list.

    Quote Originally Posted by AceinHole View Post
    4) Judging from Daglar's expressions, it's easy to see he hates PvP and wishes it wasn't a part of the game. Pretty much every question he answered relating to PvP he had an angry expression and said something negative about it. What I took from this is that he hates PvP players and hates competitive play.
    Daglars reply to this was a good one, and its not the first time he's said it.
    and I have to agree with him.
    2 faction pvp is bad. changing rift from 2 faction to something different is going to be an insane amount of work.


    now I have a suggestion for Daglar, that I know will likely not happen, but maybe it can be added to the list of things you'd like to see happen.

    a wpvp daily zone, perhaps an island, where only those players you are grouped with are friendly. everyone else is hostile. perhaps group sizes might be restricted, perhaps not.

    P.S. please steal Huttball from SWToR. that was insane amounts of fun.
    P.P.S. also friendly pulls = a great idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  15. #30
    Ascendant micshaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    P.S. please steal Huttball from SWToR. that was insane amounts of fun..

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