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Thread: Lopsided Warfront Solutions

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Default Lopsided Warfront Solutions

    One of the most annoying things in PvP is the extremely one-sided Warfront. Of all the things that are bothersome in Rift PvP, I think this is the one that keeps me (and perhaps others) from PvPing very much.

    I get that a small segment of the Rift population is Hardcore PvP, and I respect that they take Warfronts just as seriously as I take raiding. However, their premade groups with crushing levels of gear decimating my random solo queues pretty much robs me of any joy in PvP.

    There's no surer sign that a Warfront has Gone Bad than joining a WF already in progress with the enemy team literally waiting outside your spawn area, waiting for anyone to be stupid enough to jump down. Of course, you have to feed yourself to the enemy team, or else you get the debuff for being in the spawn too long.

    In large maps like Karthan Ridge and Whitefall, this is exacerbated because teams get in asynchronous spawn waves, where have the team just rezzed, while the other half is in the process of dying to the full enemy team. Those who just rezzed reach the battle just as the rest of their team dies, and the cycle repeats. Organizing pugs to wait for everyone is not feasible nor likely to happen.

    So, I have a couple ideas. These would all only be activated by the Lopsided Event Trigger. These would be largely map dependent.

    The point is not to change the tide of the WF. The point is to make it so the losing team is able to do more than just feed themselves to the enemy team.

    The Codex
    Triggered when one team has all 4 points for more than 20 seconds. Deactivated when neither team controls all 4 points for 20 seconds.
    2 Portals appear in the losing team's spawn. One portal teleports you to Vault and one teleports you to the far side of the tower next to Codex. This lets the enemy team escape being spawn camped.

    Karthan Ridge
    Triggered when the enemy team has both Sourcestones and at least a 1 point advantage. Deactivated after 90 seconds or the losing team scoring.
    A new Sourcestone and a Jump Pad appear near the spawn. The Jump Pad will fling you to the central porticulum and can be used while carrying the Sourcestone. If the special Sourcestone is dropped, it can't be picked up and immediately respawns. This will force the enemy team to push to win the game or else defend their reactors. Either way, spawn camping won't work.

    Whitefall Steppes
    Triggered when more than half your team is dead at once. Deactivated after 60 seconds or upon half the total enemy team dying.
    Everyone gets the Red Wings buff upon leaving spawn for 45 seconds. The closer the enemy team is to spawn camping you, the longer they will have to fight you with the buff.

    Black Garden
    Triggered when more than half your team is dead at once while more than 100 points behind and the enemy team has the Fang.
    A Lesser Fang appears in the spawn area of the losing team. If they bring the Lesser Fang to either of the Red Ball Huts on the sides of the map, they will be awarded 50 points.

    Library of the Runemasters
    Triggered when more than half your team is dead at once, while controlling no Rune Vessels and more than 100 points behind. Deactivated after 60 seconds.
    The losing team receives the Red Wings buff any time they are in the lower trench area of the map.

    Port Scion
    No change. Spawn camping does not seem to be an issue in this Warfront.

    Again, these changes are not intended to turn the tide of the WF. Instead, they give the losing team a way to escape being spawn camped and/or to do something to earn points, even if its not enough points to win.
    Last edited by Dunharrow; 05-19-2013 at 11:54 PM.

  2. #2
    Champion of Telara Nnnxia's Avatar
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    Must not... like... must resist... must...

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    Ascendant spaceboots's Avatar
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    In other mmos that have losing buffs, people ignore objectives to get the buff then steamrolls harder.
    Last edited by spaceboots; 05-20-2013 at 04:20 AM.

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    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    Would be interesting but that won't prevent farming. Farmer would lose on purpose, farm prestige/favour, then rush in for the win.


    But it's a very interesting idea.

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    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    all maps have alternative exits from the spawn.
    i suggest you take a few moments in each match to identify these before suggesting unnecessary portals/jump thingies.

    karthan in particular has side exits to the spawn that reach around to the side objectives close enough to pew pew or even rift summon careless carriers.

    players who run out the front while an enemy team is waiting for them dont need help with the match as much as they need help tying their shoes.

    also, just because your "team" act like idiots doesnt mean you need to as well. a single player doing the right thing can draw the campers off the mindless zerglings who cant think past repeatedly doing the wrong thing over and over again.



    TL;DR solutions already exist. players are too stupid to use them.

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    all maps have alternative exits from the spawn.
    i suggest you take a few moments in each match to identify these before suggesting unnecessary portals/jump thingies.

    karthan in particular has side exits to the spawn that reach around to the side objectives close enough to pew pew or even rift summon careless carriers.

    players who run out the front while an enemy team is waiting for them dont need help with the match as much as they need help tying their shoes.

    also, just because your "team" act like idiots doesnt mean you need to as well. a single player doing the right thing can draw the campers off the mindless zerglings who cant think past repeatedly doing the wrong thing over and over again.



    TL;DR solutions already exist. players are too stupid to use them.
    Hey great points, except everything you said is wrong or completely irrelevant.

    Just because people can use alternate exits doesn't mean that they do. The point is not for me to escape the spawn, the point is for the losing team to have something to do.

    The current alternate exits go unnoticed and/or unused by the vast majority of players, and that is for good reason. You used KR as an example. If the enemy team is camping in front of your spawn with both Sourcestones, what are you supposed to do if you run out one of the side exits? The enemy still has both Sourcestones and no reason to leave. All you will accomplish is to get farmed from a different angle.

    The worst example of this Library, where you literally have no option but to become a murder victim by leaving your spawn.

    You can't teach a randomly assigned group to see alternate exits or to work together. You can give them alternate objectives or a buff for to keep things relatively exciting.

    And to the guys that said the premades would lose on purpose to get the buff:

    The buff (in most situations) is lost when you score, or after a short duration. In most of the maps, getting the buff offers no combat advantage at all. Getting the buff wouldn't be worth losing to get. Even if you did get the very short duration buff on purpose, that would mean you let the other team win for awhile, which at least would mean they got a few points and kills that they normally wouldn't get.

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    I wouldn't mind the ideas just for added variety/mechanics in the game like Trion should have done a long time ago to keep wfs interesting and from becoming stale.

    I think adding jump pads and bridged areas where you fall and other paths to spread out objectives would add a lot of fun to the game.

    Just imagine a bridge spanning a gulf on the side of a map, say codex where there is a fifth point that gives as many points as dex. If you fall off there is a mine field of random angled jump pads that fling you randomly across the map if you hit one. You might get lucky and land in between some and go up a winding side path that circumvents the bridge up to the fifth stone area.

    On a side note going f2p might bring in enough players and more premades so the rank system actually works and matches are at least closer gear based. If enough start playing regularly id like to see a better calling matched system where it calculates say 4 clerics in the wf and places 2 on one team and two on the other. At least then you have the ability to match comps even if people don't bother to-option is still there.
    Last edited by Wrastion; 05-20-2013 at 08:32 AM.

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    I like how he says Port Scion Spawn camping is not an issue, and does not seem to realize there are better alternative exists from the spawn area that don't get blocked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    Hey great points, except everything you said is wrong or completely irrelevant.
    Cool story bro, except you didn't actually say anything to show Kronos was wrong.
    All you stated was "dumb people don't notice the alternative exit."

    Perhaps you should tell them to use their eyes?
    Last edited by Katosu; 05-20-2013 at 09:01 AM.

  9. #9
    Plane Touched Axaze's Avatar
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    Would rather be able to force a trade; 2 derp mele for the other team's main healer.....


    In my experience the issue is the makeup of the losing team (L2P issue), not so much the escape route.
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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Dunharrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katosu View Post
    I like how he says Port Scion Spawn camping is not an issue, and does not seem to realize there are better alternative exists from the spawn area that don't get blocked.



    Cool story bro, except you didn't actually say anything to show Kronos was wrong.
    All you stated was "dumb people don't notice the alternative exit."

    Perhaps you should tell them to use their eyes?
    My whole point is they don't get used and people aren't going to learn. Its not my mission to educate the entire population of Rift anymore than it is your mission.

    People don't see it or use it because

    A) Bad map design. Often using an alternative exit is pointless since you still can't capture any objectives or kill anyone on the other team.

    B) People get tunnel vision. You can say they need to get educated but that is not realistic. Maps should be designed so that the average player picks up on these things. I didn't notice the alternate exit in Whitefall until like 6 months after the game came out, and I'm a pretty smart guy.

    Thus, the maps need to be changed, so that the alternatives are more visible and have a point.
    Last edited by Dunharrow; 05-20-2013 at 01:28 PM.

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    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    Hey great points, except everything you said is wrong or completely irrelevant.

    Just because people can use alternate exits doesn't mean that they do. The point is not for me to escape the spawn, the point is for the losing team to have something to do.
    asumming they manage to find their way out, they already have something to do - the matches objectives! and with the other team camped at the spawn, they face only light opposition to achieve it.

    camped it dex but manage to get out the side? cap a flag. cap as many flags as you can and the campers will soon be running all over the map.

    camped it whitefall? steal a stone, gank a carrier.
    black garden? suicide assassinate the carrier. the fang is already doing plenty of damage, so well timed CC and a bit of burst can drop the carrier before you get dropped.

    any map: camp the campers spawn.

    you get the idea?

    what your are suggesting is to give bad players with no interest in winning a way to beat a better team with more coordination and atleast something approximating a clue about how to pvp.

    sorry if this doesnt appeal to me. may the best team win.
    if this means solo queued players get camped, its up to those players to figure out how not to be so bad.

    P.S. i solo queue 90% of the time. i get on bad teams too.
    i dont get camped. even when my team does.
    i might occasionaly get farmed. but i didnt queue the warfront just to afk in the spawn.
    i dont need to be given something new to do when i'm on a loser team. because there is already things to do. i do them.

  12. #12
    Ascendant lol r u mad's Avatar
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    Remove damage reductions from AOE, problem solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    My whole point is they don't get used and people aren't going to learn. Its not my mission to educate the entire population of Rift anymore than it is your mission.
    You're right, its not my mission or my job, but we do so because it is in our benefit of doing so.
    The alternative exits function just fine, telling people of their existence and how to use them will be more beneficial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post

    People don't see it or use it because

    A) Bad map design. Often using an alternative exit is pointless since you still can't capture any objectives or kill anyone on the other team.
    Port Scion: 3 ways to leave. 1 can be blocked.
    The second is immediately to the left and takes you the same direction as the bridge.

    Black Garden: Only one that may be a problem, since the Fang is immediately in front and people dont like to be patient or take a different direction.

    White fall steppes: Immediately behind you, takes you down the center of your own base. Same direction as the main route.

    Library: Left spawn takes you to the enemy teams objective area.
    Codex: Takes you immediately towards Codex and places you near Thontic OR translation scope.

    Karthan Ridge: All three send you immediately towards your own Karthan Cores. They all lead to the center area where the power sinks are located.

    Map design is hardly the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    B) People get tunnel vision. You can say they need to get educated but that is not realistic.
    I have a few academic journals that state otherwise.
    Would you like to read them on the matter regarding proper education?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    Maps should be designed so that the average player picks up on these things. I didn't notice the alternate exit in Whitefall until like 6 months after the game came out, and I'm a pretty smart guy.
    Whitefall steppes is perhaps the only one, the rest of the paths are as hard to see as the ones in Scion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dunharrow View Post
    Thus, the maps need to be changed, so that the alternatives are more visible and have a point.
    Firstly, more visible? Yes.
    Have a point? They do. You've been playing the game over 2 years now and if you failt o understand the point of them then that is...not very smart of you.

  14. #14
    Ascendant Gunzip's Avatar
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    These are good ideas Dunsparrow, lets hope one of the dev's looked over this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    I believe Assassin DoTs are uncleansable.

    It's still a terrible PvP spec compared to Marksman, though.

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    I agree 100% with everything Kronos has said. People say they don't like getting spawn camped and how terrible it is but will then do everything in their power to remain camped once it has happened. Every warfront has a way around being spawn camped. Most of the zerglings don't realize this however.
    Last edited by Wolfman2k11; 05-20-2013 at 08:25 PM.

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