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Thread: OK... it's time for CQ to

  1. #1
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    Default OK... it's time for CQ to

    Go Full Random!

    HOLD ON! ***BEFORE you discount this post*** as yet another "CQ needs to go Full Random" post...

    Let me explain why!

    (Please read this not-so-brief history because it sets up the foundation and basis for my argument... or skip the history and scroll down to "The Current State of Conquest")


    *******************************************
    The Not-So-Short History of Conquest
    *******************************************

    In the beginning, Conquest had 3 join buttons. one for each faction. You'd choose which faction you wanted to play on, you got locked to that faction, if the faction was full, you were queued until a spot opened up and you were then let in.

    When CQ was first released, the 'End-Game' purpose was Favor and Prestige. Of course there where marks to buy gear, but once you had that gear, you joined CQ to obtain Favor and Prestige.

    Players soon discovered that the best way to farm Favor and Prestige in CQ was to have everyone rush Nightfalls base, fight inside and around the front tower of Caer Thalos, and just kill and get killed, over and over and over again and the phrase: "The Tower of Favor" was born.

    In order to stop players from gaining this *insane* amount of Favor and Prestige, the Devs moved the defensive cannons out in front of each factions base. This only partially solved the problem so the cannons were set to God-Mode which effectively killed the "Tower of Favor."

    By this time, players had all their gear, were max prestige, and had more Favor than they knew what to do with, so CQ died down and only a few dozen players played each day.

    To revive life into Conquest, the Devs introduced 'CQ Perks' and 'CQ Power'. Once again, players had a reason to play Conquest. We wanted the perks, so we played.

    At this time, Extractors were extremely weak. A player could solo an extractor in a minute or 2, 3-5 players could cap one in 10 or 15 seconds.

    Players soon realized that the better geared players were queuing the same faction, fanning out very quickly, capping the extractor goal and starting the timer in just under 3 minutes. Teams weren't even getting partially filled up by the time the game had already ended.

    To combat this Conquest fiasco was to buff the extractors and make the cannons more powerful, so that a solo player, or even a small group of 3-5 players, had a difficult time capping extractors faster than a large group of players.

    Introducing: "The Zerg!"

    Factions had to have huge groups of players to be able to cap extractors quickly and efficiently. The bigger your Zerg, the better your chances of winning were. Games now lasted quite a long time. 3-4 hour games were not uncommon. In order to help shorten the length of an average game of Conquest, the Devs again made a large change and reduced the number of extractors from somewhere around 30, to (eventually) what it is now: 18.

    After a few weeks, Oath (on US servers) became the hands-down dominant force. You joined Oath or you lost. The queue for Oath was long. Oath no longer cared about Kills or Favor, they wanted one thing and one thing only... a Win!

    Oath learned quickly that, if played right, they could get their win in 5 minutes flat. Again, CQ was over way too quickly, so the Devs changed it.

    All US servers were combined and all EU severs were combined into one Battlegroup. For 2 weeks, Conquest was amazingly fun. The US servers dominant faction was Oath. The EU servers dominant faction was NF. Oath had their 'winning' mentality, and by some odd coincidence, NF gained a 'killing' mentality. Both factions started out with huge Zergs. Each with a different goal. Oath... to win, Nightfall... to Kill Oath.

    Eventually Oath go tired of dying and everyone queued Nightfall. If you weren't on Nightfall, you hated Conquest. You wasted your time in queues to get on NF or you went in on another team and just got rolled.

    This brings us to Storm Legion.

    Again, the Devs wanted to mix it up a little, so they put in a 4th button! "Random".

    You could now choose a "preferred faction," and if it was full, you were assigned to a random faction. Or you could just hit random and have it put you on a faction randomly. After the bugs finally got ironed out, it served its purpose.

    Players had new Prestige to get, more Favor to earn, new gear to obtain.

    But the system still wasn't perfect! Players figured out how to increase their probability of getting on one team over another. Dominion quickly became the dominant faction and when players queued, if they didn't get on Dom, they quit. Dom pushed win times down to a cool 5 minutes and players got tired of not being on the winning team.


    ************************************************** *******
    This catches up to The Current State of Conquest.
    ************************************************** *******


    Players got tired of Dom always winning, so they started to form 'pre-made' groups, up to an hour before the next one even started. Players filled raids out with tanks, tank heals, pullers, dpsers, raid healers, buffers, CC'ers, ... pretty much what PvE raids have, only, for PvP. They join Vent, assign leaders, meticulously plan groups for maximum efficiency, and then use the games faction balancing mechanics and timing to get multiple pre-made groups on the same faction.

    Pre-organizing is *very* effective.

    No longer can a Zerg of random pugs roll every other faction. Pre-mades rule!

    But this brings us to an interesting scenario:
    Players now join Pre-made groups to win. If you don't make it into the Premade, you don't join. If you find out which faction has the premade, try to join it, and get put on another team, they leave. No point playing on a guaranteed losing game, other than to maybe get your daily 12 extractor caps or your CQ Power tag to delay the decay from starting.

    Premades can now win CQ in 5 minutes or less. A group of pugs is ABSOLUTELY no match for the pre-organized, ventrillo using premades.

    Those of you that join premades are obviously going to say something to the effect of, "Well, then they should do it!" or "We deserve to win because we put more effort into it."
    Well, partially, that's true, but, in my opinion Conquest should be a place players can feel comfortable joining solo, participating how they would like, and having an average chance of winning.

    The current state of Conquest is anything BUT that.

    We're back to 1 faction being so much more powerful than the other 2, that games are won in a matter of minutes. The faction may change but it's always the premade faction that wins. "Pugs" can't get on the "winning" team because the faction is full due to the full 20-man raids joining at once. "Pugs" get pushed onto the other, losing factions, and 50% of the time, leave after realizing their not on the premade faction... further strengthening the premades because their team, is now not only organized, but bigger for 95% of the match.

    This is 100% contrary to the spirit of what Conquest should be. How do you fix it, you might ask? Have premades on each faction? That'll never work! You can't organize 3 factions worth of premades 24 hours a day 7 days a week. One premade will eventually end up being the 'stronger' premade and we'll be right back to where we are today.

    There needs to be a mechanic for factions having a proportionate chance of winning each match they're in. Premades have progressed to the point that the chances of a non-premade group winning, are less than 10%.

    You can't have players join premades for every game. Premades work well for dozens of players... but not for 100's of others.

    Now, I'm not against organization in Conquest. In fact, I think there SHOULD be some sort of organization... but because there are so many different types of players that would like to play Conquest their own way, the only way I see Conquest coming out of the "Premade's Always Win" stage, is (as much as I hate to say it):

    A PURE RANDOM JOIN BUTTON!

    After players are assigned a faction, they can THEN join appropriate Ventrillo channels in order to work together. Forcing players to a random faction BEFORE grouping up, will spread the organized players around, and add an additional problem of working with those players on your faction that aren't necessarily organized.

    Games would again last longer than 5 minutes, non-premade players will again have a chance of getting a win, and quite frankly, every single player would make a differnce, regardless of what faction they get put on.

    Now, for all those players that love Conquest now because you join premades... you *think* you've progressed Conquest to a more enjoyable state... Well, in reality, all you've done, is changed the winning Zerg from Dom to whatever your premade faction is.

    Sure it's fun for you, you win. But for all those players that are not in your premade... Conquest is lame.

    Devs... please fix it!

    ONE 'Random Join Button'... For The Win!
    Last edited by Bhrawn; 05-01-2013 at 01:27 AM.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    All I took out of this is the OP lives in 2006 still uses Vent and thinks Borat is the film of the year.
    Nope.

  3. #3
    Rift Disciple Garnatian's Avatar
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    You really need to learn to be more concise with your posts. There's so much fluff.

    As for attempting to balance CQ so there's a somewhat equal chance of everyone winning, a pointless endeavour. WPvP will never be balanced and so much as even attempting to balance it is pointless.

    Trion need to take a page out of Bioware's book and scrap CQ all together.

  4. #4
    General of Telara Aerelith's Avatar
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    Good synopsis but there are a couple things wrong.

    1) at SL launch, NF was dominant and Oath was secondary. Then a group that wanted to prove that players were the problem (the called themselves the conquest militia) with a lopsided CQ made the first almost premade by all agreeing to join Dom - the weakest team.

    Once Dom started wiping NF things changed.

    That was the beginnings of premades and what set Dom as the faction of choice prior to today's premades.

    2) You do not always win as a premade. Dominating the game and constantly wiping the other two teams builds resentment such that when the timer hits both of the other teams focus down the extractors of the premade. The result is that the premade frequently doesn't win. They are however the only faction having fun and they choose not to win - holding hostage the rest of the players while they farm kills for favor and prestige. I know ABL will come in here and say they don't do that and I believe them, but it is the overwhelming attitude of the premade community.

    But yes, I agree with your premise. CQ is as broken now as it has ever been.

  5. #5
    Rift Chaser SelfTitled's Avatar
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    TL;DR

    Coordination trumps numbers.

    No thank you to random.

    Only compromise I would be in consideration for would be; If in a raid/party then you are required to choose random. This way you would at least limit the premade amounts (or chance at those amounts), so as to not have 3+ full premade raids on the same team.
    Last edited by SelfTitled; 05-01-2013 at 06:22 AM.
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  6. #6
    Rift Master Krumelur's Avatar
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    Why not simply make CQ-power drain much slower?

  7. #7
    Champion of Telara Exxyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhrawn View Post
    Go Full Random!

    HOLD ON! ***BEFORE you discount this post*** as yet another "CQ needs to go Full Random" post...

    Let me explain why!

    (Please read this not-so-brief history because it sets up the foundation and basis for my argument... or skip the history and scroll down to "The Current State of Conquest")


    *******************************************
    The Not-So-Short History of Conquest
    *******************************************

    In the beginning, Conquest had 3 join buttons. one for each faction. You'd choose which faction you wanted to play on, you got locked to that faction, if the faction was full, you were queued until a spot opened up and you were then let in.

    When CQ was first released, the 'End-Game' purpose was Favor and Prestige. Of course there where marks to buy gear, but once you had that gear, you joined CQ to obtain Favor and Prestige.

    Players soon discovered that the best way to farm Favor and Prestige in CQ was to have everyone rush Nightfalls base, fight inside and around the front tower of Caer Thalos, and just kill and get killed, over and over and over again and the phrase: "The Tower of Favor" was born.

    In order to stop players from gaining this *insane* amount of Favor and Prestige, the Devs moved the defensive cannons out in front of each factions base. This only partially solved the problem so the cannons were set to God-Mode which effectively killed the "Tower of Favor."

    By this time, players had all their gear, were max prestige, and had more Favor than they knew what to do with, so CQ died down and only a few dozen players played each day.

    To revive life into Conquest, the Devs introduced 'CQ Perks' and 'CQ Power'. Once again, players had a reason to play Conquest. We wanted the perks, so we played.

    At this time, Extractors were extremely weak. A player could solo an extractor in a minute or 2, 3-5 players could cap one in 10 or 15 seconds.

    Players soon realized that the better geared players were queuing the same faction, fanning out very quickly, capping the extractor goal and starting the timer in just under 3 minutes. Teams weren't even getting partially filled up by the time the game had already ended.

    To combat this Conquest fiasco was to buff the extractors and make the cannons more powerful, so that a solo player, or even a small group of 3-5 players, had a difficult time capping extractors faster than a large group of players.

    Introducing: "The Zerg!"

    Factions had to have huge groups of players to be able to cap extractors quickly and efficiently. The bigger your Zerg, the better your chances of winning were. Games now lasted quite a long time. 3-4 hour games were not uncommon. In order to help shorten the length of an average game of Conquest, the Devs again made a large change and reduced the number of extractors from somewhere around 30, to (eventually) what it is now: 18.

    After a few weeks, Oath (on US servers) became the hands-down dominant force. You joined Oath or you lost. The queue for Oath was long. Oath no longer cared about Kills or Favor, they wanted one thing and one thing only... a Win!

    Oath learned quickly that, if played right, they could get their win in 5 minutes flat. Again, CQ was over way too quickly, so the Devs changed it.

    All US servers were combined and all EU severs were combined into one Battlegroup. For 2 weeks, Conquest was amazingly fun. The US servers dominant faction was Oath. The EU servers dominant faction was NF. Oath had their 'winning' mentality, and by some odd coincidence, NF gained a 'killing' mentality. Both factions started out with huge Zergs. Each with a different goal. Oath... to win, Nightfall... to Kill Oath.

    Eventually Oath go tired of dying and everyone queued Nightfall. If you weren't on Nightfall, you hated Conquest. You wasted your time in queues to get on NF or you went in on another team and just got rolled.

    This brings us to Storm Legion.

    Again, the Devs wanted to mix it up a little, so they put in a 4th button! "Random".

    You could now choose a "preferred faction," and if it was full, you were assigned to a random faction. Or you could just hit random and have it put you on a faction randomly. After the bugs finally got ironed out, it served its purpose.

    Players had new Prestige to get, more Favor to earn, new gear to obtain.

    But the system still wasn't perfect! Players figured out how to increase their probability of getting on one team over another. Dominion quickly became the dominant faction and when players queued, if they didn't get on Dom, they quit. Dom pushed win times down to a cool 5 minutes and players got tired of not being on the winning team.


    ************************************************** *******
    This catches up to The Current State of Conquest.
    ************************************************** *******


    Players got tired of Dom always winning, so they started to form 'pre-made' groups, up to an hour before the next one even started. Players filled raids out with tanks, tank heals, pullers, dpsers, raid healers, buffers, CC'ers, ... pretty much what PvE raids have, only, for PvP. They join Vent, assign leaders, meticulously plan groups for maximum efficiency, and then use the games faction balancing mechanics and timing to get multiple pre-made groups on the same faction.

    Pre-organizing is *very* effective.

    No longer can a Zerg of random pugs roll every other faction. Pre-mades rule!

    But this brings us to an interesting scenario:
    Players now join Pre-made groups to win. If you don't make it into the Premade, you don't join. If you find out which faction has the premade, try to join it, and get put on another team, they leave. No point playing on a guaranteed losing game, other than to maybe get your daily 12 extractor caps or your CQ Power tag to delay the decay from starting.

    Premades can now win CQ in 5 minutes or less. A group of pugs is ABSOLUTELY no match for the pre-organized, ventrillo using premades.

    Those of you that join premades are obviously going to say something to the effect of, "Well, then they should do it!" or "We deserve to win because we put more effort into it."
    Well, partially, that's true, but, in my opinion Conquest should be a place players can feel comfortable joining solo, participating how they would like, and having an average chance of winning.

    The current state of Conquest is anything BUT that.

    We're back to 1 faction being so much more powerful than the other 2, that games are won in a matter of minutes. The faction may change but it's always the premade faction that wins. "Pugs" can't get on the "winning" team because the faction is full due to the full 20-man raids joining at once. "Pugs" get pushed onto the other, losing factions, and 50% of the time, leave after realizing their not on the premade faction... further strengthening the premades because their team, is now not only organized, but bigger for 95% of the match.

    This is 100% contrary to the spirit of what Conquest should be. How do you fix it, you might ask? Have premades on each faction? That'll never work! You can't organize 3 factions worth of premades 24 hours a day 7 days a week. One premade will eventually end up being the 'stronger' premade and we'll be right back to where we are today.

    There needs to be a mechanic for factions having a proportionate chance of winning each match they're in. Premades have progressed to the point that the chances of a non-premade group winning, are less than 10%.

    You can't have players join premades for every game. Premades work well for dozens of players... but not for 100's of others.

    Now, I'm not against organization in Conquest. In fact, I think there SHOULD be some sort of organization... but because there are so many different types of players that would like to play Conquest their own way, the only way I see Conquest coming out of the "Premade's Always Win" stage, is (as much as I hate to say it):

    A PURE RANDOM JOIN BUTTON!

    After players are assigned a faction, they can THEN join appropriate Ventrillo channels in order to work together. Forcing players to a random faction BEFORE grouping up, will spread the organized players around, and add an additional problem of working with those players on your faction that aren't necessarily organized.

    Games would again last longer than 5 minutes, non-premade players will again have a chance of getting a win, and quite frankly, every single player would make a differnce, regardless of what faction they get put on.

    Now, for all those players that love Conquest now because you join premades... you *think* you've progressed Conquest to a more enjoyable state... Well, in reality, all you've done, is changed the winning Zerg from Dom to whatever your premade faction is.

    Sure it's fun for you, you win. But for all those players that are not in your premade... Conquest is lame.

    Devs... please fix it!

    ONE 'Random Join Button'... For The Win!
    Its a player's problem, Not a design problem

    You have so many people entitled to easy favor/prestige and will do anything to overstack 1 side

    I'm the opposite, I'm not afraid of challenges, and going to weaker sides

    When I'm on the dominating side, I often Re-Q to get another side

    You can have fun with 5 people 10 people 20 people in CQ, Form your group, and you can play a Bait and Kill game

    There's lots of possibilities

    Just not everything is explored yet

    <3, Exxy

  8. #8
    General of Telara Aerelith's Avatar
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    Really? You quoted that whole post?

    But the "not a design problem" argument is bunk. When players used to slam into the NF base ans spawn camp the faction it was a crap design that had to be rectified. The fact that you can intentionally rig a team to dominate is a design problem.

  9. #9
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Agreed with title, don't even have to read the post. Not sure why it's still not fully random, it was stupid to begin with and it's stupider now
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 05-01-2013 at 01:30 PM.

  10. #10
    Ascendant Ajax1114's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalthirst View Post
    still uses Vent
    Hey now...

  11. #11
    Plane Touched Abealri's Avatar
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    Why would they take out the social aspect of the MMO game? Crucia called she wants all your raids to be random Pugs as well. If pvpers cant play with friends why should raiders?
    Abadfish@Deepwood <Philanthropy> 4/4TDQ 3/4 FT 2/5 EE Cleric DPS 61 Inquisitor 15 Defiler 0 Justicar
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  12. #12
    Plane Touched Abealri's Avatar
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    Also I have joined a premade all of 3 times since they started. I cue solo and random for CQ. I usually lose but hey that is my choice for cueing solo. I still have fun even when its hard to find the small groups that I hunt because they are in premades. But make it were I can farm pugs with pugs is not a good argument.
    Abadfish@Deepwood <Philanthropy> 4/4TDQ 3/4 FT 2/5 EE Cleric DPS 61 Inquisitor 15 Defiler 0 Justicar
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garnatian View Post
    You really need to learn to be more concise with your posts. There's so much fluff.
    I realize there is a lot of fluff... I told you at the beginning, it is there for a reason. The short version is:

    1. Devs change Conquest.
    2. Conquest is fun for a week or 2.
    3. Players find a way to use the structure and mechanics to tip the probability of a win into roughly 90+%.
    4. Players gravitate to the newly adopted win structure, and if they end up on a faction that is not part of the winning structure, leave the match.
    5. Games last 4-8 minutes.
    6. Implementing a purely random join mechanic will help balance CQ because it will *equalize all* factions *at the start* of every game... not before.

    But if I'd just said that, the entire history of Conquest would not have been considered. It established a very predictable pattern.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garnatian View Post
    As for attempting to balance CQ so there's a somewhat equal chance of everyone winning, a pointless endeavour. WPvP will never be balanced and so much as even attempting to balance it is pointless.
    It's absolutely not pointless.
    The whole point of CQ is for players to have fun. The histroy of the evolution of CQ proves that players, given the ability to choose their side, will ALWAYS eventually create groups that will inevitably create an imbalance, resulting in MOST players either joining the imbalance to get fast wins, or joining just long enough to stop CQ power decay.

    Purely randomizing CQ will force an equality in factions.
    Last edited by Bhrawn; 05-01-2013 at 03:24 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abealri View Post
    Why would they take out the social aspect of the MMO game? Crucia called she wants all your raids to be random Pugs as well. If pvpers cant play with friends why should raiders?
    First of all, Players v. Environment (ie. Crucia) is *completely* different than Conquest. The entire encounter is designed for your raid to win... eventually, and then keep winning every time you do it.

    Conquest should NOT have that same design. Conquest is Player Raid vs. Player Raid vs. Player Raid.

    The percentage of getting a win on any one of the factions in any single match should be closer to 33%... *not* 90%.

    I'm not against playing with your friends, but when your group of friends ends up being 95% of one entire faction... the other 2 factions ARE at a disadvantage because inevitably, your *friends* are the ones that play Conquest more and are more likely to create a much stronger team composition than the other factions.

    Raid queuing needs to go away.

    Party queuing needs to stay!

    If you end up being on opposite factions as 5 of your other friends... that's *not* a bad thing. In fact, most PvPers love being on the opposite side as their other friends once in a while. Grouping with a couple of friends is a good thing. 80 of your *friends*... you see where this will end.
    Last edited by Bhrawn; 05-01-2013 at 03:46 PM.

  15. #15
    Plane Touched Abealri's Avatar
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    Just so you know you die more in progression raid night than you do in CQ, except it cost you plat to repair your soul. Also you say its set up for raid vs raid vs raid. Which is exactly what they are cueing for. You have an option to get with your friends and do it as well. Just because you choose not to does not mean everyone has to be like you. That is the neat thing about a game like this the option to or the option not to. If you want in on a premade join their channels(plural because there is more than 1 that does it). This is most of these peoples version of a raid as they enjoy large scale PVP with their friends. They are not exclusive and do not leave anyone out of the fun all you have top do is put an x in the channel. Why you would want to limit options in the game you play is beyond me. Just because you want this to be easy mode for you. Since when was nerfing a team in PVP or anything for that matter just for being better at what they do than you. If people hurts your feelings when they kill you in PVP maybe you should not PVP. It happens a lot even to the best of players. http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...houghts-3.html see the top post, yes Landstalker is the Land from Aquabearland. Played something not farming pugs took his lumps like a champ and did what was best for the PVP community and had fun doing it. Go back to just having Dom win, premade or not there will always be a dominant team, Its just the way it is, always has been, and always will be. So let friends be with their friends, and yes people have many more than 5 friends they wish to play with at a time just like you on raid night.
    Abadfish@Deepwood <Philanthropy> 4/4TDQ 3/4 FT 2/5 EE Cleric DPS 61 Inquisitor 15 Defiler 0 Justicar
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