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Thread: pug warfronts and the problem with pre level 60 pugs.

  1. #1
    Soulwalker Elareth's Avatar
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    Default pug warfronts and the problem with pre level 60 pugs.

    Okay, im queing for my warfront, oh, it popped.

    My team has ... 9 DPS and the other team has .... oh, 5-6 healers?

    Well this is going to be a one sided fight.

    *As a matter of fact, it was.*

    Teamplay can factor alot into a warfront, but what also factors into it is balance. Having a situation where the other team has not only one or two more healers but literally half a team of healers can outright destroy any hope of winning you have.

    This needs to stop, as a suggestion id like Trion to take note of this and consider this:

    Currently there is already an LFG system that is impliamented for dungeons designed to make CERTAIN that a group is prepaired for its exact roles.

    What rifts PVP needs is a similar system whereby your only allowed to start a pvp match WHEN your team has at least 2 healers and so does the other team, aswell as at least once support.

    Granted, it might make WF's longer, but it would also mean you get a fairer match and a less unfair odds scenerio where one team clearly will win purley cause they have more healers than the other.

    You can have a fantastic well organised team of dps but it will factor to nothing if the other side is entirley comprised of healers and yours isnt.
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  2. #2
    Ascendant spaceboots's Avatar
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    yes only pre 60

  3. #3
    Ascendant Misun's Avatar
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    It's up to the player to change specs.

    There's nothing Trion is going to do about it...it's a player problem.
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  4. #4
    Ascendant Pork Star's Avatar
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    1 day after they implement that system we'll see 50 each of the following threads:

    "Trion is FORCING me to PvP the way THEY want me to!"

    "Warfronts never pop!"

    "Let us change specs in WFS!"

  5. #5
    Ascendant BishopX's Avatar
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    if im not shooting a video, I sometimes change specs 4-5 times per warfront......


    I have a tank spec for if I am carrying the flag
    I have a ranged spec and I also have a melee spec for damage and burst respectively

    I have a spec for support and also has points in a tank tree, for warfronts where theres a lot of aoe splash damage and running around with LOL 24K hp just wont cut it

    like... I seriously dont understand how people play only one soul and refuse to switch then complain. if you are going to pvp, make a two pvp specs.
    have one that can survive with little healing (every class has one such combination) and make another that can survive with lots of healing.

    its YOUR responsibility to take care of YOU in pvp
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  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    Default people play what they want

    hi,

    everybody need to play what they want no force must put them in playing other roles i play chloro if i want or archon or dps thats why we have 6 roles and if i lose because no heals or whatever i wait the next wf and if i like i do chloro

  7. #7
    Plane Touched Belorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elareth View Post
    Okay, im queing for my warfront, oh, it popped.

    My team has ... 9 DPS and the other team has .... oh, 5-6 healers?

    Well this is going to be a one sided fight.

    *As a matter of fact, it was.*

    Teamplay can factor alot into a warfront, but what also factors into it is balance. Having a situation where the other team has not only one or two more healers but literally half a team of healers can outright destroy any hope of winning you have.

    This needs to stop, as a suggestion id like Trion to take note of this and consider this:

    Currently there is already an LFG system that is impliamented for dungeons designed to make CERTAIN that a group is prepaired for its exact roles.

    What rifts PVP needs is a similar system whereby your only allowed to start a pvp match WHEN your team has at least 2 healers and so does the other team, aswell as at least once support.

    Granted, it might make WF's longer, but it would also mean you get a fairer match and a less unfair odds scenerio where one team clearly will win purley cause they have more healers than the other.

    You can have a fantastic well organised team of dps but it will factor to nothing if the other side is entirley comprised of healers and yours isnt.
    The reason this idea wont work is because, unlike in experts, people can easily change spec after having queued up and will screw up the entire organization anyway. Also because the healing role tends to get picked less, people will queue up as healers to gain faster queues and switch back to dps the moment they're in their selected warfronts.
    Last Dawn @ Zaviel
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  8. #8
    Plane Touched Belorian's Avatar
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    Annoying edit timer >.>

    Also, in reply to the "people can play what they want" comments.. While I do agree with this, I still consider it rather annoying to see blue or pve geared mages / clerics enter as a dps and leave it unchanged despite a shortage of healers. Personally I'm a full r80 with over 1500 vengeance so my reasoning for going dps is more than justified as i actually DO succeed in dealing damage. Therefore it is utterly stupid that I sometimes find myself changing to a healing role to still keep a chance up of winning, while the blue geared derps stay in their damage role and continue with their amazing 10 dps carnage. Basically what I'm trying to say is... if you are really bad geared compared to your other teammembers and have the option to heal, please do so because you're only doing your team a disservice otherwise.
    Last Dawn @ Zaviel
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  9. #9
    Ascendant
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    It is possible for the enemy team to have too many healers and end up losing because of it.

    Regardless, the way to fix this is to increase role availability. If you lack AoE heals:

    1) Rogues can go Bard/Tact
    2) Clerics can go Warden
    3) Mages can go LGV Chloromancer

    If you lack ST Heals:

    1) Clerics can go Sentinel or Defiler
    2) Mages can go LBV Chloromancer


    If you lack support:

    1) Warriors can go Beastmaster
    2) Rogues can go Bard
    3) Mages can go Archon/Dominator

    And if you lack DPS, all four are viable.

    The problem is with the bolded and underlined; LBV Chloromancer is significantly less successful as low number healer than Cleric, so if you have absolutely no healers to begin with, it's really Cleric or bust (unless the enemy dps sucks) which limits things to only 25% of the people on your team (assuming uniform calling density, which is not the case).

    That is the fundamental problem.

    If, however, you are in a position where you could change your composition but your team is unwilling or the people don't have the right specs/don't play them properly, that is your team not playing well and therefore deserving to lose.
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  10. #10
    Rift Disciple Garnatian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misun View Post
    It's up to the player to change specs.

    There's nothing Trion is going to do about it...it's a player problem.
    You'd be correct if Rogues/Warriors had a viable Healing Soul. However, I have been in teams where it's simply made up of Rogues/Warriors.

    OP, this will never change. Trion will make no attempt to normalise the experience in WFs. One day you'll be on the team with 10 Healers and one day you won't be. It's bad design and you simply have to live with it.

  11. #11
    Prophet of Telara CericX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garnatian View Post
    You'd be correct if Rogues/Warriors had a viable Healing Soul. However, I have been in teams where it's simply made up of Rogues/Warriors.

    OP, this will never change. Trion will make no attempt to normalise the experience in WFs. One day you'll be on the team with 10 Healers and one day you won't be. It's bad design and you simply have to live with it.
    At lower levels tact\bard is insane for healing output. Having solo and duo healed 1-50 multiple times in that spec I was very surprised. 2-3 times the healing output of most** mage\clerics. Won't keep someone up through focus fire, but will easily unbalance a single dps on someone. Yes, its frustrating when no one on your team switches to heals. No, there is nothing you can do about it. And NO, unless you are one of few very good people I'm not going to healbot you.

    @60 its different in regards to healing, but if you are short on mages\clerics to begin with and no one switches to a support role to supplement them, your team had best be serious about focus fire because they will still be pretty useless.

    My reasonable behavior being exhausted (coffee empty) I'd laugh if your idea were put in place. I'd queue as heals then go DPS every time regardless just for the instant queue. Think warriors queuing for dungeons as support.
    Last edited by CericX; 05-01-2013 at 07:47 AM.

  12. #12
    Ascendant Pork Star's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garnatian View Post
    You'd be correct if Rogues/Warriors had a viable Healing Soul. However, I have been in teams where it's simply made up of Rogues/Warriors.
    False. Even if each calling could only fill one role, ever, it would still be a player problem. Players choose the calling.

    Also, bard/tact can heal. Don't underestimate them. My SO frequently beats wardens and LGV chloros(yes, bad ones) in healing done.

  13. #13
    Prophet of Telara Gamma Ray's Avatar
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    On the other hand, there are those rare, glorious matches where your team's DPS is so tremendous that the team 'o healers can't keep up. Those are fun.
    Last edited by Gamma Ray; 05-01-2013 at 08:36 AM.
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  14. #14
    Rift Disciple 1Benevolent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pork Star View Post
    False. Even if each calling could only fill one role, ever, it would still be a player problem. Players choose the calling.

    Also, bard/tact can heal. Don't underestimate them. My SO frequently beats wardens and LGV chloros(yes, bad ones) in healing done.
    not to mention the fact that even comps of pugs being all DPS vs a good comp in the end it comes down to players still...

    Ive had groups and even a few instances where my entire warfront was nothing but warriors or warriors and dps roles and we just massacred the other team even though they had a great comp, u know FF and actually cooperating for kills, pulls, cc stuns and punts can easily trump the comps but people just expect everything to be handed down, or OH they have healers we have none its over kinda mentalities.

    Sure its a disadvantage but cant reap what you dont sow, dont get other soul combos to change ur build accordingly to the situation then you most definitely deserve to lose, go on be a hero and charge into 5 ppl alone and then complain to the group and especially to the healers on why exactly it is you dieded :c
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