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Thread: What did we learn from the 5v5 tourney? Few thoughts.

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    Default What did we learn from the 5v5 tourney? Few thoughts.

    My primary take-away: if your five man group is worth a damn, it's got a defiler, a sentinel, and a riftblade. Chloro isn't viable in the slightest, and rb is still in a league of its own.

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    Ascendant Valnak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by handerhank View Post
    Chloro isn't viable in the slightest, and rb is still in a league of its own.
    Chloro is viable when duohealing with a defiler if your dps are strong enough.

    For example see this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=criBlfP_FfY

    Yes my team lost, but it did really well and could have easily gone my team's way if we had played better.

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    That looks exactly like a bunch of very, very good players fighting a huge uphill battle due to comp imbalance.

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    That you can replace an MM with a BM and it would work out better. I called it..first RB/BM/DOM/SENT/DEFILER...

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    Can actually if you don't have a mage, use a beastmaster in the place of a dom. 1 RB, 1 MM, 1 BM. BM can buff the team, purge, and cc the healers; can be pretty amazing if played right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by handerhank View Post
    My primary take-away: if your five man group is worth a damn, it's got a defiler, a sentinel, and a riftblade. Chloro isn't viable in the slightest, and rb is still in a league of its own.
    I just don't think a chloro can take a place of a good sent or defiler, sent has the best cleanses to counter dom's by far and defiler links are almost a necessity, even though i do feel however 2 sents would be just fine i think a defiler just makes it easier.
    I can't believe you didn't mention the MM's or Dom's, with a defiler on the other team having a MM on your team is very vital and dom's shut clerics down.
    It may all seem very cookie cutter to alot of people at this point but this was the first tournament and you have yet to see different comps yet so i wouldn't base all my opinions/assume perfect comps just yet, i think as this progresses you may see different comps be successful once we all gain more experience

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    Quote Originally Posted by slash_wrists View Post
    sent has the best cleanses to counter dom's by far
    Chloro has identical cleanses to Sentinel.

    This goes 3/3 so 100%: http://www.rifthead.com/trait/819/convalesce
    This goes 2/2 so 1.0s gcd: http://www.rifthead.com/trait/820/healing-balance

    Chloro's spammable single target single debuff cleanse: http://www.rifthead.com/ability/1070...ures-cleansing
    Chloro's aoe cleanse: http://www.rifthead.com/ability/-280...cleansing-rush
    Last edited by Valnak; 04-28-2013 at 05:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valnak View Post
    Chloro has identical cleanses to Sentinel.

    This goes 3/3 so 100%: http://www.rifthead.com/trait/819/convalesce
    This goes 2/2 so 1.0s gcd: http://www.rifthead.com/trait/820/healing-balance

    Chloro's spammable single target single debuff cleanse: http://www.rifthead.com/ability/1070...ures-cleansing
    Chloro's aoe cleanse: http://www.rifthead.com/ability/-280...cleansing-rush

    I knew someone was going to say that, i meant it can't do what sent does as far as healing and cleansing goes in a 5v5
    I'm also aware of how useful warden cleanses would be also, for anyone else who is going to say that too, i get it...
    i just meant you can't really beat a sent as far as cleansing and healing are both concerned in a 5v5...

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    Champion of Telara Hikos's Avatar
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    Slashwrist best cleanse bot 2013.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slash_wrists View Post
    I just don't think a chloro can take a place of a good sent or defiler, sent has the best cleanses to counter dom's by far and defiler links are almost a necessity, even though i do feel however 2 sents would be just fine i think a defiler just makes it easier.
    Chloro cleanses are actually on par with sent (1.0 gcd, aoe on 10 sec cd, slight heal). Problem is chloro can't drop even a single global for anything other than straight healing because someone will die. And even when you dedicate every available global to healing... yeah, someone usually dies.

    I say this often, but anyone who has logged extensive time with both chloro and sent will tell you that sent is so much more powerful it feels like cheating. The positional requirements (or lack thereof), the emergency cool downs, the self-healing - it's like playing a different game.

    And links are absolutely overpowered, but w/e.

    I can't believe you didn't mention the MM's or Dom's, with a defiler on the other team having a MM on your team is very vital and dom's shut clerics down.
    I think BM can fill in very well for dom once more warriors learn to leverage the spec. I also think you could potentially run a second riftblade (instead of the MM) in that comp. Point being: CC and purge are necessary but possibly more "available" than "best healing" and "best damage".

    It may all seem very cookie cutter to alot of people at this point but this was the first tournament and you have yet to see different comps yet so i wouldn't base all my opinions/assume perfect comps just yet, i think as this progresses you may see different comps be successful once we all gain more experience
    I don't think we'll see different comps until we see outliers properly nerfed. Is a BM as good with cc or purge as a dom or mm individually? No, but there is enough ability crossover to allow for some potential variety. Nothing touches sent's healing throughput, defiler's links, or riftblade's damage. If they were to shore up chloro healing in pvp (would require a few big changes), spread links to another calling (after nerfing them a bit), and reign in riftblade some, other callings might become viable for those cornerstone roles. You don't need absolute equality. You just need it to be close enough that skill or strengths in other areas potentially cover the gaps.

    Food for thought: you can't really use a caster as lead dps in competitive pvp because the meta is loaded with interrupts and silences. As long as pyro and inq are arbitrarily saddled with an additional vulnerability to a highly prevalent and exclusive form of cc, seems lead dps will always be rogue or warrior.

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    Yeah..except mages don't run out of mana.
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    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by handerhank View Post
    My primary take-away: if your five man group is worth a damn, it's got a defiler, a sentinel, and a riftblade. Chloro isn't viable in the slightest, and rb is still in a league of its own.
    4 bards, 1 defiler, go. CC all of the things.

    (I'm joking. Mostly. I kind of wonder how effective that would be, though.)
    Last edited by Muspel; 04-28-2013 at 09:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misun View Post
    Yeah..except mages don't run out of mana.
    Because they don't have any mana dumps to keep people alive through focus fire. Kind of the point.

    The ability to go oom in exchange for repeatedly saving people's lives is a *good* thing. Heck, even in the most one-sided wfs with all of the dps on the other team, no one on my side has to die until I'm out of mana and cds. A good team of dps will exhaust that mana and those cds in 20 seconds, but that's leagues better than the chloro alternative - people simply right away.

    Quote Originally Posted by slash_wrists View Post
    I knew someone was going to say that, i meant it can't do what sent does as far as healing and cleansing goes in a 5v5
    I'm also aware of how useful warden cleanses would be also, for anyone else who is going to say that too, i get it...
    i just meant you can't really beat a sent as far as cleansing and healing are both concerned in a 5v5...
    This is a huge indictment of chloro (or great proof that sent is OP): despite having identical tools for cleansing, sent is much more effective at the job because it has the throughput and cds to cleanse AND heal. How can it be any more clear that chloro is subpar (or sent is overtuned)?
    Last edited by handerhank; 04-29-2013 at 02:44 PM.

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    I think that Chloro needs four things to be roughly equivalent to a Sentinel, but in different ways.

    1. A second break free / cc break.
    2. A cooldown resetter.
    3. Some kind of sprint / teleport.
    4. No GCD on Synthesis and/or No Cooldown on Synthesis.

    If it had these it would be a more damaging (ignoring current WE) sentinel that sacrifices mitigation cooldowns (HCov) for mana resilience.

    As you can tell a 61chloro/11+ pyro already has 2 of these things, but 15 warlock is basically required or the Chloro is both squishy and cannot heal itself effectively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by handerhank View Post
    Because they don't have any mana dumps to keep people alive through focus fire. Kind of the point.

    The ability to go oom in exchange for repeatedly saving people's lives is a *good* thing. Heck, even in the most one-sided wfs with all of the dps on the other team, no one on my side has to die until I'm out of mana and cds. A good team of dps will exhaust that mana and those cds in 20 seconds, but that's leagues better than the chloro alternative - people simply right away.



    This is a huge indictment of chloro (or great proof that sent is OP): despite having identical tools for cleansing, sent is much more effective at the job because it has the throughput and cds to cleanse AND heal. How can it be any more clear that chloro is subpar (or sent is overtuned)?
    Chloro should be subpar, it's a MAGE not a cleric...
    Also sent is fine, in a 5s a good Dom or a good MM will shut me down as a sent, all i can do is instant cast my big heals and cleanse bot...
    If Skreamo, Reincarnation or Nuku are on the other team a Sent is not OP, maybe you need to play in actual 5s against those 3 and tell me just how overtuned it really is

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