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Thread: Idea for warrior support/utility: why not links?

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    Default Idea for warrior support/utility: why not links?

    Most of the riftblade apologists are saying warriors need game-breaking damage because they don't bring enough utility. I think this is an excellent argument for lowering riftblade damage and increasing warrior utility.

    What two roles do warriors fill in pve? Tanking and dps. The dps role obviously functions just fine in pvp, but the tanking role sort of falls short. As a warrior tank, you can troll objectives or throw yourself at zergs, but you will always be neutralized by intelligent players focusing your teammates instead of you. You can't reliably soak damage for your team without help from the enemy.

    Unless you're a cleric defiler...?

    Warriors should absolutely have access to links. Conceptually, it's a perfect match. A lot of people roll warriors to absorb punishment in place of their allies. Links allow you to do this in pvp without relying on forced targeting nonsense.

    In terms of balance, it's exactly what this game needs right now. Defiler links are 100% mandatory in competitive play. Breaking that monopoly (and simultaneously adjusting riftblade) would really open up group composition.

    The more I think about it, the more I wonder why Trion didn't give links to warriors first. Still, better late than never.

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    Quote Originally Posted by handerhank View Post
    Most of the riftblade apologists are saying warriors need game-breaking damage because they don't bring enough utility. I think this is an excellent argument for lowering riftblade damage and increasing warrior utility.

    What two roles do warriors fill in pve? Tanking and dps. The dps role obviously functions just fine in pvp, but the tanking role sort of falls short. As a warrior tank, you can troll objectives or throw yourself at zergs, but you will always be neutralized by intelligent players focusing your teammates instead of you. You can't reliably soak damage for your team without help from the enemy.

    Unless you're a cleric defiler...?

    Warriors should absolutely have access to links. Conceptually, it's a perfect match. A lot of people roll warriors to absorb punishment in place of their allies. Links allow you to do this in pvp without relying on forced targeting nonsense.

    In terms of balance, it's exactly what this game needs right now. Defiler links are 100% mandatory in competitive play. Breaking that monopoly (and simultaneously adjusting riftblade) would really open up group composition.

    The more I think about it, the more I wonder why Trion didn't give links to warriors first. Still, better late than never.
    I think this is a tricky subject, mainly due to the fact we want to do two things. As of current only a few souls really do the trick for bursting good clerics down. I believe someone said defiler is helping to keep TTK from being out of control, so what you have basically is a RB is needed to burst down another player healed and mitigated by a defiler.

    So if you nerf the RB damage, then add more links, the TTK will skyrocket in my opinion and things will get silly again. We would have to adjust links in general along with RB damage or you would simply lower RB damage and get rid of one of a few (the best currently) class to kill anything despite its protection.

    I think links need looked at, and the fact the cleric placing the links is basically a healing tank as well. Its a problem when their focus is elevated to tank-like status and they are already at tank-like status whilst healing. Oh you purged me, well everything is OGCD! Back up again. Not many options to fight one if they halfway pay attention. Also links take no attention. Its not like you have to focus on raid frame health bars and click click click. Its on click and boom instant mitigation I can forget about you.

    Overall not against it, and I think it is very creative, just think we should fix RB and look at defiler links to get the souls more on par with TTK with one another.
    Last edited by Wrastion; 04-19-2013 at 12:45 AM.

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    Rift Master Krumelur's Avatar
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    Maybe shields like purifier that soaks up damage and links it to you. Spammable! Some kind of self healing like defiler. Or simply being tough enough to handle the damage.

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    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    Because defilers shouldn't exist in the game to begin with. No need to spread the monstrosity.

    PS: it kinda sounds like people think defiler, in itself, is tanky. It really is not more tanky than sentinels.

    It's simply a free caster. It doesn't benefit defensively from links just that the damage it takes from the links are negligible and blocked completely by a self shield which only blocks link damage. Other than that and UT, a defiler and senti are on equal standing when it comes to self preservation for the most part, which has been a theme for cleric healers.
    Last edited by Eughe; 04-19-2013 at 12:58 AM.

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    Depends on the composition of the raid. Scenarios are different and changing. If for instance a RB gets purged it loses a ton of damage. If for instance they get a dom debuff they can't attack or usually go ooe or get squirreled etc. There is actually counters to them but those counters also have counters like raid buffs. cc immunity, cleanses etc. Then you can use debuffs like from archon and cleanses..etc as a counter to a counter. The scenarios are vast.

    The problem is players look at it one dimensional. Basically dps vs. dps where yes RB is OP but in the wide scope of things NOT REALLY... it just depends. Unfortunately, most matches is about dps and healing and those other roles don't get any glory at all when it is those roles that actually can make the biggest impact... not RB. LIke for instance defiler and dom.

    You can say well warriors have tank and rogue have bard but you have to consider that those roles are also flawed because there is an over emphasis on healing. The Healing role can extend over to a point where it makes having those roles as option completely crippling when there is lack of dps etc.It is better to counter healing with healing and that is basically it in many cases.

    What I am saying is sure nerf rogue and warrior but to be fair you need to offer them specs like dom or defiler in return as in the right hands they are OP as well when you are not one dimensionally thinking just dps vs. dps.

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    Plane Walker Bodicca's Avatar
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    Because defilers shouldn't exist in the game to begin with. No need to spread the monstrosity.
    This can't be said enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    Because defilers shouldn't exist in the game to begin with. No need to spread the monstrosity.

    PS: it kinda sounds like people think defiler, in itself, is tanky. It really is not more tanky than sentinels.

    It's simply a free caster. It doesn't benefit defensively from links just that the damage it takes from the links are negligible and blocked completely by a self shield which only blocks link damage. Other than that and UT, a defiler and senti are on equal standing when it comes to self preservation for the most part, which has been a theme for cleric healers.
    If they slapped a cooldown, even a modest one like 4-6 sec, on explosive growth, they might be able to justify the current links. Or if the defiler actually took damage from the links instead of it all being mitigated passively through talents, that might be okay. But I agree 100% that the current combination of free damage reduction + massive burst healing (with no cast times or cds anywhere) is completely over the top and should have been kicked in the nuts a long time ago.

    But if they're not going to properly balance the links, they should allow another calling to bring them to the table. Warriors, having no quality heal or support specs, and being the foremost tank class (conceptually, anyways) are a natural candidate for more links. I think it'd be a nice bone for them if Trion ever gets off its hands and tunes RB. Of course, all links should probably be halved in pvp (just like the heals and absorbs).

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    Rift Master Anathemus's Avatar
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    Default What scenario are we talking about now?

    Quote Originally Posted by handerhank View Post
    If they slapped a cooldown, even a modest one like 4-6 sec, on explosive growth, they might be able to justify the current links. Or if the defiler actually took damage from the links instead of it all being mitigated passively through talents, that might be okay. But I agree 100% that the current combination of free damage reduction + massive burst healing (with no cast times or cds anywhere) is completely over the top and should have been kicked in the nuts a long time ago.

    But if they're not going to properly balance the links, they should allow another calling to bring them to the table. Warriors, having no quality heal or support specs, and being the foremost tank class (conceptually, anyways) are a natural candidate for more links. I think it'd be a nice bone for them if Trion ever gets off its hands and tunes RB. Of course, all links should probably be halved in pvp (just like the heals and absorbs).
    This thread has gone back and forth from wfs to CQ to 5's and back again. None of these statements bears and validity without a couched definition of parameters.

    In 5v5's (as every body knows) the best way to counter a Defiler is with a Dom, so everybody runs a Dom.

    The best way to counter a Dom is to run a Sentinel to aoe purge Dom nasties and to have enough of a mana reserve to make draining a Sent pointless for the most part. So everybody runs a Sent.

    The best way to counter a Sentinel is to Bring a Marksman. So everybody brings a Marksman.

    The best way to counter a Marksman is with a better Marksman, the second best way is to pull and focus nuke the hell out of em and overwhelm the mobility shenanigan with any of the many well timed roots. Or to squirrel em and ignore em. Since everybody has a Dom already, the best way to nuke down a MM is with a RB (not to mention their damage in melee is enough to melt pretty much anything without two healers on it. So everybody brings a RB.

    The best way to offset the damage of a RB is to bring a Defiler to absorb through the links.

    We the players didn't design it this way, we are only doing what is logical with what we are given. Remove Defilers and this balance gets way way out of line. Unless all five of the specs mentioned above are looked at equally, this is a moot point. Remove any one of them and the balance is broken. But this only barely applies to wfs, and not at all to CQ. Define your parameters.
    Last edited by Anathemus; 04-19-2013 at 05:06 AM.
    "The thousand little pieces of my life, which I have tried so hard to hold onto, are slipping through my fingers again. Each time I have to pick them back up, my hands seem a little smaller. Don't pity me, kill me. Just be gentle." -from my hour of need-

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    Plane Walker Bodicca's Avatar
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    In 5v5's (as every body knows) . . .
    Yeah because 5's are the bulk and backbone of RIFT PvP . . . the 5's wf, the 5's CQ, the 5's arena. . .

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    why dont we just make everyone the same? everyone can use every soul from every class? no uniqueness no need to have a good team comp just everybody can do everything. they already ruined this game enough with tempest because of this attitude of "well they can do it why cant we."

    leave the unique souls to the classes that have them. stop trying to blend everything together.

    Currently the class differences are

    Clerics: top heals, defiler is best support, good range dps
    Rogue: good damage from melee and range, good support
    Mages: Dom is awesome, Good melee soul, good healing sole, ok range soul
    Warrior: Top burst soul, good range, best tank soul, worst support soul

    IMO everyone has awesome abilities and plays an important roll in PVP. Stop trying to make everyone the same.

  11. #11
    Rift Master Anathemus's Avatar
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    Default I think you intentionally missed the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodicca View Post
    Yeah because 5's are the bulk and backbone of RIFT PvP . . . the 5's wf, the 5's CQ, the 5's arena. . .
    Try reading it again, and be sure to read the first and last parts that talk specifically about the need to DEFINE PARAMETERS of the discussion. Then I think you may have a better idea what you should say in response.
    "The thousand little pieces of my life, which I have tried so hard to hold onto, are slipping through my fingers again. Each time I have to pick them back up, my hands seem a little smaller. Don't pity me, kill me. Just be gentle." -from my hour of need-

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodicca View Post
    Yeah because 5's are the bulk and backbone of RIFT PvP . . . the 5's wf, the 5's CQ, the 5's arena. . .
    While I make lengthy posts and seem to be pissing off a lot of main warriors, I am finding most the people vehemently arguing base their game balance around 5's. Even the post you responded to his main talk was balancing around 5's. I feel like saying, what 5's? Honestly even if you discount my posts there are some seriously laughable people because they are constantly biased on balancing around a nonexistent WF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anathemus View Post
    Try reading it again, and be sure to read the first and last parts that talk specifically about the need to DEFINE PARAMETERS of the discussion. Then I think you may have a better idea what you should say in response.
    From my point of view yes you did mention it, but most your post explanation was about balancing 5's. All I got from it was how to balance the callings if in a 5''s, which we have no WF of such unless late at night and numbers leave you with just that.

    That being said obviously 5's should not be the discussion, so you've solved one problem and the talk should not be about balance related to 5's, but a more normal WF of around 10-15 would be a start?

    If Dag or someone states we might get a 5's or anything less then 10 then lets start talking. I believe Dag stated against this though in a prior post. I'm of a sound mind what you said is 100% correct (although lol the same people who 5's argue its not) in your balance and this is a nightmare so Trion would NOT want less in a WF. The outliers which people argue are not outliers (or needed you could say) stand out you can't deny it. Then you would have to balance a lot more callings to equal them for variety.
    Last edited by Wrastion; 04-19-2013 at 10:14 AM.

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    Plane Walker Bodicca's Avatar
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    Try reading it again, and be sure to read the first and last parts that talk specifically about the need to DEFINE PARAMETERS of the discussion. Then I think you may have a better idea what you should say in response.
    While I could be wrong I believe the PARAMETERS of the discussion is RIFT PvP. I'm not trying to be confrontational but I'm at a loss as to why you brought up 5's.

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    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodicca View Post
    While I could be wrong I believe the PARAMETERS of the discussion is RIFT PvP. I'm not trying to be confrontational but I'm at a loss as to why you brought up 5's.
    Because you cant clump the same scenario for 5s as you do with 20 v 20. Not fully anyway.

    In a 20 v 20, wardens become the healers of choice while defilers for the most part, are a waste unless youre spreading heal debuffs and aoeing, in which cabs would be better.

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