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Thread: almost there trion

  1. #61
    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunzip View Post
    Lol, people cried about healing, Trion nerf it, and now they cry more about the lack of heals, so ironic. Lesson learned, careful what you wish for.
    The people crying about lack of healers are healers trying to make &*(@ up. Yes there is warfronts we do not get healers. This has always been the case but their is plenty of healers on both sides.

  2. #62
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunzip View Post
    Lol, people cried about healing, Trion nerf it, and now they cry more about the lack of heals, so ironic. Lesson learned, careful what you wish for.
    i for one am not crying about lack of heals because they are there. the problem is damage is way to high.

    the counter to over the top damage isnt over the top heals...yet people dont seem to grasp that. unless you give everyone a healing soul then it can never be the answer.

    reduce damage, this will make healers better and dps will gain more survivability without needing over heals all the time.

  3. #63
    Ascendant Gunzip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    i for one am not crying about lack of heals because they are there. the problem is damage is way to high.

    the counter to over the top damage isnt over the top heals...yet people dont seem to grasp that. unless you give everyone a healing soul then it can never be the answer.

    reduce damage, this will make healers better and dps will gain more survivability without needing over heals all the time.
    Pvp was fine when healers could survive better, folks were running stupid hybrid builds and complained on the forums about not being able to take down healers, I had no issue as I ran a glass canon dps build. So now healers are useless, you look at them and they fall over and die. Like I said, careful what you wish for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    I believe Assassin DoTs are uncleansable.

    It's still a terrible PvP spec compared to Marksman, though.

  4. #64
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunzip View Post
    Pvp was fine when healers could survive better, folks were running stupid hybrid builds and complained on the forums about not being able to take down healers, I had no issue as I ran a glass canon dps build. So now healers are useless, you look at them and they fall over and die. Like I said, careful what you wish for.
    i wished for lower heals, not lower heals and more damage. i was running 76points into maybe the highest dps soul in pvp right now. i was hitting IMO at a perfect amount. in a small enviroment heals were good. 2 v1 healing could survive but evenutally they would die vs glass cannon specs. the problem was with more then 3 or 4 healers it became imposibble to kill anybody and people saw multiple games of stalemates. this game favors group PVP and group objectives, there for there was constant situations of just two groups of healers on each team that were impossible to kill, regardless of focus fire and cc.

    trion had two options, nerf healing, or give dps more tools to slow down heals.

    they choose reduce heals and increase raw damage which was the wrong choice. healers and other classes are now taking too much damage again. its back to pew pew zerg vs zerg pvp.

  5. #65
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunzip View Post
    Pvp was fine when healers could survive better, folks were running stupid hybrid builds and complained on the forums about not being able to take down healers, I had no issue as I ran a glass canon dps build. So now healers are useless, you look at them and they fall over and die. Like I said, careful what you wish for.
    and healers are far from useless, they are still the most important class in the game and the most important to have on your team. I would trade a equally skilled dps for a healer every day.

  6. #66
    Ascendant Gunzip's Avatar
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    These changes are being put in place by forum whiners that are very unskilled, they click, backpedal, keyboard turn, don't expect good balance when terrible players get catered to by the developers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    I believe Assassin DoTs are uncleansable.

    It's still a terrible PvP spec compared to Marksman, though.

  7. #67
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunzip View Post
    These changes are being put in place by forum whiners that are very unskilled, they click, backpedal, keyboard turn, don't expect good balance when terrible players get catered to by the developers.
    yea i agree, thats the only reason you could justify a damage increase. bad players who werent doing crazy damage pre the valor buff really didnt nothing for damage when valor was fixed. i mean honestly the bad players make up for a much larger % then even the average player.

  8. #68
    Rift Master Anathemus's Avatar
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    Default The Chinaman is not the issue!

    The valor is not the issue. The healing is not the issue. The issue is and continues to be the dearth of skill in the majority of the playerbase, on both healing and damage sides. The less forgiving the pvp becomes (ie, the closer the damage to healing ratio is to 1) the more this lack of general skill will start to effect the whole team. I think the most skilled team should win, but like anything there should be multiple opportunities to succeed. In the case of healers, as it is now, if you are slow on a GCD somebody, if not you, dies. As a dps, if you are slow on a GCD, somebody doesn't die. One gives a second opportunity, the other does not. When the lack of forgiveness starts to be a constant choice between saving yourself with that one GCD, and saving a team mate, then you are forced to triage and let them die. This situation is all too easy to create over and over and over. It only take two good dps at this point to completely remove a healer from the game, one on the target of the healer, and one on the healer.

    I play triage healing specs only. I aim to maximize my ability to heal two targets, myself and my target, and I play the whackamole game, every game. Barring the very best focus fire with good CC, I still will not die. But this means that everybody else will because only triage specs have any chance at out healing even modest Focus Fire in the current paradigm (but only so long as their modest mana resource holds out). My survivability is dependent wholly on my ability to constantly move and heal, and never hard cast (so never exposed to interrupts). Positioning and mobility give me an edge, and allow me to move with the frontline, as fast as the frontline. Most healers can't do this, and most healers need to use Sentinel since it currently is the only spec with enough stamina to maintain its throughput in protracted fights (yes because of mana) while being reliant on the triage healer to cover their *** in the eventual case that they get caught with a silence on a CI cast trying to save themselves or somebody else. And don't tell me Sent is OP. In its current iteration it is basically a clumsy ****ing mess. Hardcasts in a world of Melee and midrange juggernauts is a deathsentence. Given the design of the single target healing specs in regard to the new damage ratio, we are running low on resource now in 30 seconds, and spend much of the rest of the fights trying to regen mana, since our only effective heals against the burst is our most expensive (ES, or CI). Yes, currently the answer is to stack more healers and rely even more heavily on mindless aoe spray and pray healing to make up some of the difference. Is this an improvment? I don't think so. I think it ****ing stinks.

    I am, and remain hard to kill (and to catch), but mine is the only spec that can claim this, and the others are just gonna get rolled. This is not how it should be. Healers now are basically the only role that is self rooted by its main mechanic. This is ****ing stupid.

    Something has to give. It won't be me. I will still be there making bad dps cry, and doing my best to save the stupid warriors that STILL, even now constantly overextend because they wholly lack any perspective on what is happening in the minds of their healers. I said this in another thread, but it bears repeating. Healers are the ONLY role that requires multitasking to be sufficient in their function. The same cannot be said for dps or tanks. Yes, you leet warrior tanks might have a cast @focus interrupt macro that you use from time to time to be extra irritating, but compare that to trying to keep four people alive by nothing but a thousand Health knowing full well that those players, as well as everyone else is watching and expecting you to carry the situation, and knowing that if you fail, most likely they will all die and you will be left standing alone in the middle of the field with your pud in your hand. When you, as dps, can assert that you have that kind of pressure, then maybe you can understand why the current situation is not correct.

    I should really be studying for class, so that is /end of diatribe, for now.
    "The thousand little pieces of my life, which I have tried so hard to hold onto, are slipping through my fingers again. Each time I have to pick them back up, my hands seem a little smaller. Don't pity me, kill me. Just be gentle." -from my hour of need-

  9. #69
    Rift Chaser psionicalpha's Avatar
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    I'm of the opinion that where things are currently is pretty much fine. I was in several matches yesterday and this morning where things were mostly at a stand still. Eg no one dying and healing being through the roof. Was specifically in black gardens and whitefalls that this happened. I was also in several situations where one side or the other had their doors blown off.

    Personally I think that's about as close to the middle ground as you can get, and the composition + skill of the teams determines the outcome. In the cases of the stand still, we had 4-5 healers on both sides and pretty much no one died.
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  10. #70
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anathemus View Post
    The valor is not the issue. The healing is not the issue. The issue is and continues to be the dearth of skill in the majority of the playerbase, on both healing and damage sides. The less forgiving the pvp becomes (ie, the closer the damage to healing ratio is to 1) the more this lack of general skill will start to effect the whole team. I think the most skilled team should win, but like anything there should be multiple opportunities to succeed. In the case of healers, as it is now, if you are slow on a GCD somebody, if not you, dies. As a dps, if you are slow on a GCD, somebody doesn't die. One gives a second opportunity, the other does not. When the lack of forgiveness starts to be a constant choice between saving yourself with that one GCD, and saving a team mate, then you are forced to triage and let them die. This situation is all too easy to create over and over and over. It only take two good dps at this point to completely remove a healer from the game, one on the target of the healer, and one on the healer.

    I play triage healing specs only. I aim to maximize my ability to heal two targets, myself and my target, and I play the whackamole game, every game. Barring the very best focus fire with good CC, I still will not die. But this means that everybody else will because only triage specs have any chance at out healing even modest Focus Fire in the current paradigm (but only so long as their modest mana resource holds out). My survivability is dependent wholly on my ability to constantly move and heal, and never hard cast (so never exposed to interrupts). Positioning and mobility give me an edge, and allow me to move with the frontline, as fast as the frontline. Most healers can't do this, and most healers need to use Sentinel since it currently is the only spec with enough stamina to maintain its throughput in protracted fights (yes because of mana) while being reliant on the triage healer to cover their *** in the eventual case that they get caught with a silence on a CI cast trying to save themselves or somebody else. And don't tell me Sent is OP. In its current iteration it is basically a clumsy ****ing mess. Hardcasts in a world of Melee and midrange juggernauts is a deathsentence. Given the design of the single target healing specs in regard to the new damage ratio, we are running low on resource now in 30 seconds, and spend much of the rest of the fights trying to regen mana, since our only effective heals against the burst is our most expensive (ES, or CI). Yes, currently the answer is to stack more healers and rely even more heavily on mindless aoe spray and pray healing to make up some of the difference. Is this an improvment? I don't think so. I think it ****ing stinks.

    I am, and remain hard to kill (and to catch), but mine is the only spec that can claim this, and the others are just gonna get rolled. This is not how it should be. Healers now are basically the only role that is self rooted by its main mechanic. This is ****ing stupid.

    Something has to give. It won't be me. I will still be there making bad dps cry, and doing my best to save the stupid warriors that STILL, even now constantly overextend because they wholly lack any perspective on what is happening in the minds of their healers. I said this in another thread, but it bears repeating. Healers are the ONLY role that requires multitasking to be sufficient in their function. The same cannot be said for dps or tanks. Yes, you leet warrior tanks might have a cast @focus interrupt macro that you use from time to time to be extra irritating, but compare that to trying to keep four people alive by nothing but a thousand Health knowing full well that those players, as well as everyone else is watching and expecting you to carry the situation, and knowing that if you fail, most likely they will all die and you will be left standing alone in the middle of the field with your pud in your hand. When you, as dps, can assert that you have that kind of pressure, then maybe you can understand why the current situation is not correct.

    I should really be studying for class, so that is /end of diatribe, for now.
    i agree with you, as someone who over extends a lot i dont expect my healer to keep me up. i try and finisher off a healer or at least make them break los to their front line. i then use my two ports, hopefully blood thirsty, health pot and shield to get back to my zerg and my healers.

    if i die i dont blame the healers i blame my agression, hell im a warrior im suppose to die. staying with the zerg firing range gets old fast, you need melee to push the line.

    i think that healers have a tougher job, and ill be the first to say when i think they are getting screwed. i havent thought that since 1.11 because of healing bugs. burst heals and burst dps were both way over the top.

    last week we were so close to good pvp. i think in a perfect enviroment we would of been there since its much easier to run in small groups and work together in small groups. the problem is this game isnt small groups its mostly zerg vs zerg. and it was a problem when 4 healers could stand there spam the same spells non stop and keep their entire team alive without moving, without CC and without much skill.

    like you said good healers and good dps will be fine no matter what, but you cant balance this game around the best because they are the 5%.

  11. #71
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psionicalpha View Post
    I'm of the opinion that where things are currently is pretty much fine. I was in several matches yesterday and this morning where things were mostly at a stand still. Eg no one dying and healing being through the roof. Was specifically in black gardens and whitefalls that this happened. I was also in several situations where one side or the other had their doors blown off.

    Personally I think that's about as close to the middle ground as you can get, and the composition + skill of the teams determines the outcome. In the cases of the stand still, we had 4-5 healers on both sides and pretty much no one died.
    i think it all depends on what you want for pvp. i would agree with you that matches seem pretty close if you have an equal amount of healers on both sides but i still think that certain damage specs are hitting too hard. some people like more of a fps feel where its really quick battles i dont thats why i switched to rift.

  12. #72
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    They need to just revert the valor nerf and be done with it.

  13. #73
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    They need to just revert the valor nerf and be done with it.
    yea its very frustrating they didnt try the old valor with the healing nerf first then if healing was still too high reduce valor. i think people would of been a lot happier with just a small healing nerf and valor unaffected.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrastion View Post
    The fact you don't know chloros have to deal damage to heal and can't stay in the back of the zerg but be within range of...well...a ranged game (so mostly everyone) for the most part is all I need to say to reply to this post. I also won't mention how ignorant you look just now.
    I would sympathize if it werent for poorly controlled pets running around your raid you could easily grab healer aggro on and heal from anywhere. Also, you dont have to deal damage, a target can immune the damage and still proc a heal, not to mention direct heals. Coming from a bard in the days of 20m range, if you cant figure out how to heal from the back of the zerg with damaging abilities that proc heals, you might want to review your tactics. I think possibly you are so worried about getting kills as chloro you find yourself in bad positions, rather than focusing on postiioning and healing.
    Last edited by ShalarLight; 02-21-2013 at 07:28 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    FYI Riftstalker running isn't even pve. .... You might as well call riftstalker running PVE.

  15. #75
    Ascendant Fujitasix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    They need to just revert the valor nerf and be done with it.
    I'll stick with my original assessment of saying split the difference, give half of the valor back. Living longer favors healers, and would be a modest buff for them as well.

    It's just a fuzz too arcade at the moment, but it's an improvement over last week.

    Regardless, Trion is making an effort and I'll be a lot more excited about new PvP stuff when they have the fundamentals in good working order. They are very close.
    Currently playing Beermaid lvl 65 War

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