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Thread: Best way to make a statue? Swing a sledgehammer once every 4-6 weeks.

  1. #1
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    Default Best way to make a statue? Swing a sledgehammer once every 4-6 weeks.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm ecstatic that Trion addressed pvp in a very significant way with this update. A dog tends to devour just about anything if he hasn't eaten in weeks.

    But the severity of the change, as well as the unmeasured and untested nature of it, has become a predictable, even reliable course for Trion. Instead of subtle but meaningful adjustments every patch (aka the way pretty much any paying customer would prefer things) Trion stands by for months doing practically nothing only to swing a comically over-sized hammer and break everything in the opposite direction.

    Maybe I'm taking crazy pills here, but this seems the worst possible way to balance a delicate, complicated system like mmo pvp. So many variables and factors to consider - the whole thing practically screams "light touch". How does a mostly untested blanket ~30% damage reduction seem like a good idea? Why no consideration for obvious secondary effects like the relative strength of healing in an environment with lower TTK?

    And now we've got official word that things won't be rolled back, and no more significant changes will be made, until the dust settles and people adjust. That's all well and good if we're to trust that Trion's way of doing things actually can produce an increasingly well-balanced pvp experience, but I just don't see how that's possible. The changes are simply too infrequent, too extreme, and. too. untested.

    I hate for this to come across as a rant post, but I'm honestly befuddled. Why not turn more knobs more frequently and less severely? Why not a 10% damage reduction to start? Why not a matching 5-10% healing reduction? Why not a slight downtick for mana regen? Why not a 5% damage reduction versus ranged dps for melee souls? Little, subtle adjustments that gradually round the game into shape. Is it a limited resources issue? A priority disagreement?

    Why not draw from the community? Give a handful of pvpers a few afternoons in the pvp sandbox, testing out specs in a variety of circumstances, and finishing up with thorough notes for your own devs?

    I'm rambling. I do that. I just know that I really love Rift PvP when it's working, and I want to believe my $15 a month (in an era where the vast majority of MMOs are free) is providing an effective framework for managing and balancing the pvp environment. This one enormous, game-altering change every 2-3 months strategy? It mixes things up, for sure. But it's not the best way to get us where we need to be. If it happens to be the most cost effective way, I'm not sure I care to support it much longer.
    Last edited by handerhank; 02-14-2013 at 05:28 AM.

  2. #2
    Rift Master Anathemus's Avatar
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    Default I have an analogy for what I think is at play here.

    PvP requires two Players hence two P's instead of one. A blanket change to a mitigation stat such as valor, has a linear effect based on the quantifiable potential of the build whether dps or healing.

    Consider the case of two viscous rogues duking it out at Vault, Rogue A and Rogue B. This change in potential effects both equally (assume equal gear) and as such increases the length of the duel (TTK). This is good. This was needed. Now, add a healer to both sides of the fight. One rogue (Rogue A) is actively attacking the other's healer (Healer B) in vain hopes of pulling off a kill, while maintaining dots on the other rogue (rogue B) who for the sake of this analogy is trying to kill Rogue A. The other healer (Healer A) is not taking any damage and is only healing Rogue A. What does this do in regard to the valor change? In the case of team A, the change in potential is arranged in a parallel configuration with the total potential being additive but not cumulative. In the case of team B, the potential is now arranged in series configuration and is the cumulative potential of both cells. This works for Damage potential better than it does for healing potential, since the best a healer can do is not die, whereas a dps can get the healthpool to zero and kill somebody.

    TLDR, or the wtf is he talking about version: Focus fire, like focus healing, is a force multiplier rather than simply a function of the total potential of the team. In a static environment, the additive total potentials offset eachother. It is only when potentials are aligned in the same direction on one side of the equation that the ratio begins to shift.
    Last edited by Anathemus; 02-14-2013 at 06:46 AM.
    "The thousand little pieces of my life, which I have tried so hard to hold onto, are slipping through my fingers again. Each time I have to pick them back up, my hands seem a little smaller. Don't pity me, kill me. Just be gentle." -from my hour of need-

  3. #3
    RIFT Guide Writer Redcruxs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anathemus View Post
    PvP requires two Players hence two P's instead of one. A blanket change to a mitigation stat such as valor, has a linear effect based on the quantifiable potential of the build whether dps or healing.

    Consider the case of two viscous rogues duking it out at Vault, Rogue A and Rogue B. This change in potential effects both equally (assume equal gear) and as such increases the length of the duel (TTK). This is good. This was needed. Now, add a healer to both sides of the fight. One rogue (Rogue A) is actively attacking the other's healer (Healer B) in vain hopes of pulling off a kill, while maintaining dots on the other rogue (rogue B) who for the sake of this analogy is trying to kill Rogue A. The other healer (Healer A) is not taking any damage and is only healing Rogue A. What does this do in regard to the valor change? In the case of team A, the change in potential is arranged in a parallel configuration with the total potential being additive but not cumulative. In the case of team B, the potential is now arranged in series configuration and is the cumulative potential of both cells. This works for Damage potential better than it does for healing potential, since the best a healer can do is not die, whereas a dps can get the healthpool to zero and kill somebody.

    TLDR, or the wtf is he talking about version: Focus fire, like focus healing, is a force multiplier rather than simply a function of the total potential of the team. In a static environment, the additive total potentials offset eachother. It is only when potentials are aligned in the same direction on one side of the equation that the ratio begins to shift.

    what the frig did i just read? and how does it pertain to trion making infrequent, massive changes to the game as opposed to frequent small tweaks?

    I mean i get what you're trying to say, i think, but throwing around all the "parallel configurations potential alignments equations" BS just makes it way more complicated then it should be. what alignment? what equations? who's potential? parallel? I don't think these words mean what you think they mean.

    Just say it simply:

    The valor increase affects DPS'ers linearly, every player takes ~35% more damage to kill
    The valor increase affects Healers exponentially, every player takes ~35% longer to kill, which lets them cast ~35% more heals, which lets them keep people alive even longer... etc.

    This shifts the balance too much in favor of heals.

    But anyways, on topic: I agree with the OP. Trion, find a way to make smaller adjustments more frequently (iterative testing?) and we'll all be better off.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anathemus View Post
    PvP requires two Players hence two P's instead of one. A blanket change to a mitigation stat such as valor, has a linear effect based on the quantifiable potential of the build whether dps or healing.

    Consider the case of two viscous rogues duking it out at Vault, Rogue A and Rogue B. This change in potential effects both equally (assume equal gear) and as such increases the length of the duel (TTK). This is good. This was needed. Now, add a healer to both sides of the fight. One rogue (Rogue A) is actively attacking the other's healer (Healer B) in vain hopes of pulling off a kill, while maintaining dots on the other rogue (rogue B) who for the sake of this analogy is trying to kill Rogue A. The other healer (Healer A) is not taking any damage and is only healing Rogue A. What does this do in regard to the valor change? In the case of team A, the change in potential is arranged in a parallel configuration with the total potential being additive but not cumulative. In the case of team B, the potential is now arranged in series configuration and is the cumulative potential of both cells. This works for Damage potential better than it does for healing potential, since the best a healer can do is not die, whereas a dps can get the healthpool to zero and kill somebody.

    TLDR, or the wtf is he talking about version: Focus fire, like focus healing, is a force multiplier rather than simply a function of the total potential of the team. In a static environment, the additive total potentials offset eachother. It is only when potentials are aligned in the same direction on one side of the equation that the ratio begins to shift.
    I feel like you wrote enough here to accidentally stumble upon what I was talking about, but I read and read and never found it.

  5. #5
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    I think they mean to have players adjust their playstyle/builds. There is no need for more survivability if you go dps so more pure dps builds can change how things are.

    Also, tactics were out the door prior and people will get used to them again.

    For the most part I see a lot of people attacking the near-invulnerable yet dps weak tanks in front and not the heals in back. Of course healing is OP this way. Part of the adjust is for people not to nuke down the first thing they see (typically the tank). If the tank on your boards has highest damage taken then you know most dps are just focusing them.

    Check it out next time in a wf and you'll see people are mostly attacking the tanks.

  6. #6
    Ascendant Fujitasix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrastion View Post

    For the most part I see a lot of people attacking the near-invulnerable yet dps weak tanks in front and not the heals in back. Of course healing is OP this way. Part of the adjust is for people not to nuke down the first thing they see (typically the tank). If the tank on your boards has highest damage taken then you know most dps are just focusing them.

    Check it out next time in a wf and you'll see people are mostly attacking the tanks.
    I throw on the high heels and hot pink lipstick sometimes and shake my money maker on the frontline, but I can't tell how much damage I'm taking due to the -4272893745628936492 bug. I do know however that I'm really irritating the hell out of the healers, because even once they've identified that I'm tanking, it won't be long before I'm a coordinated target switch. Probably about the time the healers are typing out "Get this !&%$#@! VK out of my face if you want healed!"

    /Yoink.

    You can't ignore a VK doing his job, or your healers won't be doing much of theirs.
    Currently playing Beermaid lvl 65 War

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fujitasix View Post
    I throw on the high heels and hot pink lipstick sometimes and shake my money maker on the frontline, but I can't tell how much damage I'm taking due to the -4272893745628936492 bug. I do know however that I'm really irritating the hell out of the healers, because even once they've identified that I'm tanking, it won't be long before I'm a coordinated target switch. Probably about the time the healers are typing out "Get this !&%$#@! VK out of my face if you want healed!"

    /Yoink.

    You can't ignore a VK doing his job, or your healers won't be doing much of theirs.
    True some good warriors have the right builds to tank/and dps and drain/silence/cc the heck out of healers. I have it done all the time to me, but to your point.

    a) yes if you are a cleric that works since they have to target themselves with their own heals
    b) No if you are a chloro that doesn't work (as well). If you don't have enough dps to pressure me I use you, the vk tank as my target to continue my heals, only I back up so that you are the only one that can target me and I don't have to stand on the front lines.

    Seen some pretty good warrior dps/tank builds though that CAN outdo my own self heals (as chloro). Most use tempest for the pulse (which does some pretty decent damage) to fill in the disconnects when not on my *****). I'm not seeing anything wrong with the calling now with that build makeup. Most I think dip more on the dps side now too since you inherently got more survivability. RB/Temp/x where x is some tank class.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcruxs View Post
    Just say it simply:

    The valor increase affects DPS'ers linearly, every player takes ~35% more damage to kill
    The valor increase affects Healers exponentially, every player takes ~35% longer to kill, which lets them cast ~35% more heals, which lets them keep people alive even longer... etc.
    Hnng, every time I read a broad generalization of core concepts in gameplay, I generate a new microaneurysm. Important to note that this generalization doesn't take into account....anything but straight DPSing. To be fair, however, the recent playerbase takes no issue with straight DPSing. Wonder why healers aren't dying? Probably not CCing.

    tl;dr: You're making fights last longer than they should of your own volition. Mana wrench is a helluva drug.

  9. #9
    Ascendant HannonHellbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fujitasix View Post
    I throw on the high heels and hot pink lipstick sometimes and shake my money maker on the frontline, but I can't tell how much damage I'm taking due to the -4272893745628936492 bug. I do know however that I'm really irritating the hell out of the healers, because even once they've identified that I'm tanking, it won't be long before I'm a coordinated target switch. Probably about the time the healers are typing out "Get this !&%$#@! VK out of my face if you want healed!"

    /Yoink.

    You can't ignore a VK doing his job, or your healers won't be doing much of theirs.
    YES!

    I do miss VK drains though. I used to use the hell outta them in open world pvp and hell even warfronts when I had to duke it out with a caster 1v1 or even 2v1.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scaramuccia View Post
    Hnng, every time I read a broad generalization of core concepts in gameplay, I generate a new microaneurysm. Important to note that this generalization doesn't take into account....anything but straight DPSing. To be fair, however, the recent playerbase takes no issue with straight DPSing. Wonder why healers aren't dying? Probably not CCing.

    tl;dr: You're making fights last longer than they should of your own volition. Mana wrench is a helluva drug.
    Drains were the solution to immortal healers before SL. Now passive and active mana regen are too powerful. You might drop a healer to 20-30% mana after 2-3 debuff cycles, but the fight is already 1-2 minutes old at that point. If other healers are present, there's still a clear overabundance of healing.

    I've personally drained you in wfs. It takes forever, and the healing you output even under constant pressure/duress from a full dom is ridiculous. You're a good player, which helps. But I don't think healers should be face-tanking drains AND people. Pick one, imo.

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