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Thread: Why melee doesn't work - and probably never will. Some ideas, though.

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    Default Why melee doesn't work - and probably never will. Some ideas, though.

    Most of what I read from warriors is "I want to melee. Period." I can sympathize. It would suck to roll up a character with a clear vision of your desired play-style, a vision clearly supported by the prevalence of melee dps souls and abilities on display, only to find it's not workable.

    So warriors, please don't be offended by what follows.

    What does it take to make a melee-focused toon viable in an environment where ranged dps is extremely common?

    Well, what does it take to make a swordsman viable on a battlefield where everyone has guns?

    Answer: either the swordsman needs to be borderline unkillable, or the destruction he inflicts (when he does close to melee range) needs to greatly exceed that caused by a single ranged combatant.

    In other words: if a melee soul is going to be viable in the current meta, it needs to have either ungodly survivability or ungodly dps.

    What I'm sensing, from most of the warriors who balk at the current state of things, is that they want to play in melee, they want to kill people, and they don't want to be any more likely to die than other (ranged) dps. That's a fine goal. It's also a total pipe dream.

    You cannot just wish away the safety advantage of ranged dps, and you cannot realistically compensate for the lack of it with damage output. The amount of additional dps needed to offset the restriction/risk of melee absolutely breaks the game.

    Ungodly survivability is a serviceable alternative, especially when paired with some utility/support. Unfortunately, thus far, Trion has either overtuned the damage aspect of these builds (nb/rs) or failed to provide enough actual utility/support (most warrior tank souls).

    Most players only seem satisfied with these tanky builds when they somehow weave together the right sub souls to somehow push dps beyond acceptable limits (given the survivability). Others try their best to lend support/utility, but the mechanics just don't translate to pvp like they should.

    Shifting gears: a few things have led to this overarching issue. One is the introduction of tempest, which increased the number of ranged callings from 3/4 to 4/4 (and the maximum number of ranged dps in any given game from 75% to 100% - or, assuming healers, something like 60% to 90%). Another is the versatility of the rogue calling, which has conveniently retreated into a variety of effective (even dominant) ranged options in order to handle (or define) the current the meta.

    Put more succinctly: the "melee classes" are simply too good at being ranged right now. In some ways, they're better than the original "ranged classes" (magic dps). So long as this remains true, the overall role balance in any given wf will continue to favor ranged dps almost exclusively.

    It's hard to put these ranged genies back into their respective bottles without really upsetting the current order of things, but I think it's the only way you can bring melee back to pvp.

    Specifically: they need to nerf the ranged souls for these callings. That is the only way you can shift viability back towards the melee souls. This, in turn, will generate a population shift from ranged to melee, and this will increase melee survivability tremendously - warriors will simply have far fewer people peppering them as they close gaps.

    The idea is for ranged dps to become the purview, more or less, of the caster classes once more. Not exclusively so; I think rogues and warriors should continue to have that option. But it shouldn't be the vastly superior option next to their melee alternatives, and that means introducing some new limitations and vulnerabilities for the ranged warrior/rogue souls - including more reliance on hard casts, susceptibility to interrupt/silence, etc.

    Range dps should be backloaded (through cast times) in order to give melee an extra second or two to close range. Range dps should be relatively immobile while dishing out damage so that melee isn't kited to oblivion. Range dps should vulnerable to certain exclusive checks on uptime, like interrupts and silences, as a tradeoff for their greater reach. Rogue and warrior ranged souls generally don't succumb to these time-honored restrictions. They break most of the "ranged rules", and in so doing they become excessively attractive options for most intelligent players.

  2. #2
    General of Telara Ashh's Avatar
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    You are wrong.

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    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    the only thing they need to do is nerf range damage, if players dont hit for 4k builders from range on tank specs then people will play melee. also melee specs need something to keep players in melee since most specs have lots of ways to keep melee off.

    to relate it to your sword comment its more like a bow an arrow doing more damage then an ax when someone is 2 feet away.

    nerf range damage across the board this in turn will reduce TTK and give melee some incentive to get back on the front lines.

    there are plenty of melee builds that would be viable if range dps wasnt so insane

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    or

    my snare could not be 30pts into a dps tree that isn't reachable by current TTK, and destroys synergy.
    My only cc break could not only be found in a ranged soul.
    my only roots are on a couple of charges, one that needs a shield, and another on a pull mid tier tank tree... only lasts 2 seconds... .5s longer than the gcd to cast it.

    my charges and pulls in WL could not share a CD
    charges could more easily talented instead of just per tree.

    Block could actually work in pvp. I have 15% block, my shield doesn't even have any on it besides the rune.
    Resists work as elemental armor now... if my cc and cc breaks were scaled back as admited in tempest reveal because I wear plate, why not my plate pvp armor have the same resist and hp as everyone else?
    Last edited by spaceboots; 02-12-2013 at 07:24 PM.

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    I agree with nearly everything the OP says and I'd to elaborate a bit on one point. Yes, nerf ranged damage, but things should not go back to 1.7-1.9 where having a warrior 1m away meant death for a mage (slight exaggeration, but you get the point). There should be some kind of compensation for classes with cast times, but not for instant cast classes (you know the one I mean).

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    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    melee is about the only thing that does work as far as mages are concerned

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    General of Telara littlepoit's Avatar
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    good OP analysis
    Last edited by littlepoit; 02-12-2013 at 07:39 PM.

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    General of Telara Ashh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaceboots View Post
    or

    my snare could not be 30pts into a dps tree that isn't reachable by current TTK, and destroys synergy.
    My only cc break could not only be found in a ranged soul.
    my only roots are on a couple of charges, one that needs a shield, and another on a pull mid tier tank tree... only lasts 2 seconds... .5s longer than the gcd to cast it.

    my charges and pulls in WL could not share a CD
    charges could more easily talented instead of just per tree.

    Block could actually work in pvp. I have 15% block, my shield doesn't even have any on it besides the rune.
    Resists work as elemental armor now... if my cc and cc breaks were scaled back as admited in tempest reveal because I wear plate, why not my plate pvp armor have the same resist and hp as everyone else?
    I am going to have to agree with boots, just give these guys a snare man.

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    Sword of Telara Thedarkside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    melee is about the only thing that does work as far as mages are concerned
    Yep and every other ranged class blows us up just as fast lol. **** marksmen

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    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    Making natural defense mechs (block,parry,dodge,res,armour) more effective at least for melee will assist in this.

    However, the problem with melee pvp, is pve. Since pve, for the most part, isn't completely tank and spank, ranged souls are used. The more they are used, the more people want them to be powerful enough to get content down, thus, less hard cast and more insta power megadeath attacks of doom.

    Can't nerf ranged into oblivion because it limits options, however, so long ranged souls gets tweaked and revamped and altered to make them better dps in pve, it will translate in pvp too.

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    General of Telara littlepoit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    Making natural defense mechs (block,parry,dodge,res,armour) more effective at least for melee will assist in this.

    However, the problem with melee pvp, is pve. Since pve, for the most part, isn't completely tank and spank, ranged souls are used. The more they are used, the more people want them to be powerful enough to get content down, thus, less hard cast and more insta power megadeath attacks of doom.

    Can't nerf ranged into oblivion because it limits options, however, so long ranged souls gets tweaked and revamped and altered to make them better dps in pve, it will translate in pvp too.
    i completely agree it's all a matter of people wanting to do the exact same dps on the dragon since toping the dpsmeter will make you look good just like pvp players love taking screenshots of their epeen scoreboards to print and stick on the wall like college diplomas (i printed mine on a tshirt).

    but i digress, PvE should be balanced but so should PvP and since trion has implemented the code to make ability changes to PvP only they should do the exact same thing in PvE. the latest MM buff should have been PvE only .....

    i think daglar or elrar said balancing each ability for PvP and PvE would be a nighmare but i have a hard time believing them it's a one time thing then get a pvp designer to concentrate on pvp balance !
    Last edited by littlepoit; 02-12-2013 at 09:16 PM.

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    Ascendant Keota's Avatar
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    God warriors are such babys
    Zoartype@Deepwood

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    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    the only thing they need to do is nerf range damage, if players dont hit for 4k builders from range on tank specs then people will play melee. also melee specs need something to keep players in melee since most specs have lots of ways to keep melee off.
    But which range need to be nerfed? All range? How is that fair to casters, who are already saddled with cast times and vulnerability to silences (which, incidentally, already make them inferior to ranged warriors/rogues)? And what happens when you reach the "threshold" where melee are reliably closing the gap without taking much damage *while* doing substantially more damage than ranged? Doesn't it just turn into a melee fest at that point?

    nerf range damage across the board this in turn will reduce TTK and give melee some incentive to get back on the front lines.
    What I'm trying to get at with my first post is that so long as rogue and warrior range builds are more effective than their melee builds, these players will gravitate towards those ranged builds... which exacerbates the problem by deplenishing the frontlines and adding more ranged combatants. Mage and cleric ranged builds shouldn't be lopped in with the others because they suffer targeted limitations in order to account for their range advantage (silence/interrupt vulnerability, backloaded damage and immobility from hard casts). Besides, if you blanket nerf range, does that force mages and clerics into mostly melee range? With mages having only one melee soul?

    The idea here is for warriors to get back into melee, rogues to get back into melee at least half of the time, clerics to be in there even less often, and mages to be mostly ranged. That's what the souls indicate should be happening with these callings, and that sort of distribution would give you a nice balance between frontline and ranged combat.

    They definitely need to add some snares back in there (while nerfing the pulls), and I wouldn't be opposed to a very mild base damage reduction for exclusively melee souls. But it can't be the sort of binary situation where melee on ranged = death, either. Rift simply doesn't have the DR system or the balance in cc/snares to allow for that kind of dynamic, kite vs anti-kite gameplay.

  14. #14
    General of Telara Ashh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keota View Post
    God warriors are such babies
    There you go bud, fixed that for you. BTW you still didn't mention me over there in the "who is a badass" thread.
    Last edited by Ashh; 02-12-2013 at 09:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashh View Post
    You are wrong.
    Hey, I'm sure it's fun to play what is essentially a front-loaded, mostly instant-cast pyro, only with more escapes and always-on runspeed advantages. It's just not particularly healthy for the game.

    Mages and clerics definitely can blow people up, but they're nothing next to a rogue. Everyone knows it. We should probably stop taking people who seem to deny this very seriously.

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