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Thread: Why healing needs to cost more mana. Far reaching implications.

  1. #16
    Plane Walker
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    I'd actually like to see all classes have to deal with resources again. What's the point of having them if we don't have to be mindful of them? Right now healers are still the ones that have to be mindful of resources despite their mana regen skills.

    What I want is for mana drains to be in a few more souls and for the assassin mana drain poison to be buffed a bit. DPS absolutely should suffer when you mana drain, but should produce noticeable (but not overpowered) results.

  2. #17
    Rift Master Anathemus's Avatar
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    Default 100% agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoggoth1890 View Post
    I'd actually like to see all classes have to deal with resources again. What's the point of having them if we don't have to be mindful of them? Right now healers are still the ones that have to be mindful of resources despite their mana regen skills.

    What I want is for mana drains to be in a few more souls and for the assassin mana drain poison to be buffed a bit. DPS absolutely should suffer when you mana drain, but should produce noticeable (but not overpowered) results.
    This is the only mmo I have played so far that resources meant nothing in. why is that?
    "The thousand little pieces of my life, which I have tried so hard to hold onto, are slipping through my fingers again. Each time I have to pick them back up, my hands seem a little smaller. Don't pity me, kill me. Just be gentle." -from my hour of need-

  3. #18
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    [QUOTE=Anathemus;4143361Mana is not the issue. TTK is.[/QUOTE]

    They are both very closely correlated actually.
    Introducing back mana management (more than 1 GCD in rotation) would allow the devs to make people more resiliant. People would not die exclusively because of burst, but because of burst and "long term" ressources.

    Matches would be longer but not infinite as limited in the end by ressources. As everybody would be more resiliant, people would be able to play longer and more easiliy without healers.

    I think there is a reason most of the games set the secondary ressources as the desciding factor (be it mana, or long term CDs or...). The reason is that a game balanced just on healing buffers, and hps vs dps throughput is too difficult to balance. Because finding the rigth spot for wich hp pools / hps/ dps lead to combats of mayby 2 minutes, and does not depend too much on healer number, is too difficult. Moreso in game which has that much variability in specs.
    Last edited by Ailis; 02-02-2013 at 09:04 AM.
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  4. #19
    Rift Chaser Riftologist's Avatar
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    "I want things like mana management and "falling back to recover" back in the game."

    I agree with Handerhank. Resource management should matter. It would certainly promote more meaningful gameplay.
    Who is John Galt?

  5. #20
    Plane Walker Scarybadlady's Avatar
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    Again you dont balance a game by what happens in duels
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  6. #21
    Ascendant Valnak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riftologist View Post
    "I want things like mana management and "falling back to recover" back in the game."

    I agree with Handerhank. Resource management should matter. It would certainly promote more meaningful gameplay.
    I agree. Warriors and Rogues should have to deal with mana too.

  7. #22
    Sword of Telara Izualy's Avatar
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    why not just make everyone have to manage their energy and mana...Like league of legends or something. maybe some less then others. atleast so people arent spamming there auto follow BS more then a ***** who gives out on 45th street.

    maybe give everyone a bigger pool of energy and mana make the skills cost more depending on dmg or healing..
    Last edited by Izualy; 02-02-2013 at 10:14 AM.

  8. #23
    Rift Chaser Riftologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valnak View Post
    I agree. Warriors and Rogues should have to deal with mana too.
    Congratulations Valnak, you sure showed me!

    Getting back to the idea of resource management. If players had to worry more about energy/mana maybe this would serve as a good opportunity for other soul combos to step forward and become PvP viable.

    Thinking outside the box here ... but what if Necromancers or Beastmasters had an ability to recharge mana/energy? Could make things interesting and afford them an opportunity to fill an important niche in a Warfront.
    Who is John Galt?

  9. #24
    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by handerhank View Post
    The point of the thread is that failure to kill a target shouldn't be the same things as never having queued into the wf. That when I dominate a game on my chloro (and I've dominated more than a few) without ever looking at my mana bar even once, something is kind of wonky. That other styles of play should be encouraged, including suboptimal (in terms of burst) dps specs, because it's healthier for the game overall.
    You, as a chloro, may not need to think about mana, however, i as a cleric, do. Me pumping out stellar heals does not come free of charge. My mana depletes very quickly, and even if you feel mana drains arent spectacular (which i agree with) if i am active, they do add up and its very easy for me to be OOM.

    Yes, i can get it back, but, i have to actively do it, meaning i either sit their an channel (being vulnerable) or lower my HP and forgo healing. And it long matches, there will be times in where i am just running around trying to refil mana, hoping my pot comes off CD, as i cant use two skills to heal myself (or anyone else for that matter) because i was not paying attention to my mana consumption, or was being FF and drained.

    Maybe something needs to be done with mages, however, as a cleric healer, i manage mana plenty.
    DPS, i never have to look at the stuff.


    You think I wrote all of that in response to one healer not dying when I unloaded? I play a healer more often than not because it's usually the best way to help the majority of my teams.
    I think you wrote it because you were 1v1ing a cleric as a dom and spamming your CC attacks and wondering why stuff wasnt working, thus, obviously the system is wrong.

    When I do play dps, I tend not to have much trouble blowing people up. The games where I do have trouble, when dps on my team is light and the other team is rocking multiple competent healers, I will admit, I wish my damage meant something. In those situations, my contribution would be a negative one to some healer's blue bar, but that's still worthwhile. That healer, pressured enough, might have to scale back, retreat, etc. Then maybe we can push, score a kill, etc.
    Welp, fighting multiple healers is literally fighting multiple healers. People cant expect to 1v5 and win even if they are not necessarily fighting an offensive target. (Not saying you thought that)

    I guess the overall theme here is that pvp is too binary. It's reflected in wf scores, which are almost always lopsided. It's reflected in specs and attitudes. And it's strangling people who appreciate breadth and depth of play.

    I think most people over analyze things, mainly dps, because they feel that once they attack something it should die, and dont realize that they do not die, because they arent fighting 1 person in a duel. They are fighting a team, and just as no one expect to go up against multiple dps solo and live, the same way no one should expect to go up against multiple healers and **** face. Not without some form of coordination, as those multiple healers, all looking at their raid frames, will notice an HP bar dropping rapidly, and will instinctively heal it, all of them and continue healing it until it stops moving around so much.

    You, as a healer, should realize this.

  10. #25
    Plane Walker Scarybadlady's Avatar
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    Im starting to understand why trion doesnt give pvp much attention. In a game dominated by dps the dps still think healing is OP and dont realize how easy they have it compared to healers, front line melee and tanks. Dps is way to easy in this game and its made dps not able to cope when they face even the slightest challenge. Which means if i spam my one dps macro and it takes more then 5 gcd to land a kill or u have to use purge or cc or cooperate with another dps to kill your target then its obvious dps is broken and too weak to do its job.

    Anytime you ask for a nerf to a class and base your point on what happend in a duel or against a dummy you fail to even begin to realize what the real issues are.

    Again in a game where paper, rock, scissor is how its balanced you need to factor in that healers are outnumbred 3 or 4 to 1 and need to be able to do their job while having to heal damage not from only one source but multiple sources of damage focused on the target they are healing. You cannot use 1v1 ever to balance pvp even 2v2 is not a good example at minimum you need to start at 3v3 and expect a healer to be able to keep up 2 people and themselves while taking damage from 2 others at the very least.

    Your not a great dps if you expect to blow cds and cc when ur target is at 100% hp and kill them regardless if its a healer or other dps. Players should be able to have time to react to damage and respond to it. Landing a kill should be about outplaying your target and getting them down to 30% and then using your big cc and cds to land the kill. Warfronts should be close matches won by small margins at the end by strategy not by whoever did more dps.
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  11. #26
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    They should do the exact opposite, make it so that mana users burn through mana using dps souls. That would force mana users to only heal that way we have 2 classes that can only dps and 2 that can heal...would be crazy but in all honesty I think it will be only way to make healers happy and balance the game.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 02-02-2013 at 01:26 PM.

  12. #27
    Ascendant Oblivion333's Avatar
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    Are you kidding me? I remember before SL, mages would just eat our mana like there was no tomorrow. I am certainly happy that we are now given the gift to regenerate mana from our utility ability.

    Currently the only cleric class that eats a lot of mana is defiler, and they are mana hogs. If heals REALLY heal players due to more mana cost then I'm good with that but if mana cost are high and the heals are not impacting then forget it.
    Last edited by Oblivion333; 02-02-2013 at 01:39 PM.

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  13. #28
    Ascendant Oblivion333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarybadlady View Post
    Im starting to understand why trion doesnt give pvp much attention. In a game dominated by dps the dps still think healing is OP and dont realize how easy they have it compared to healers, front line melee and tanks. Dps is way to easy in this game and its made dps not able to cope when they face even the slightest challenge. Which means if i spam my one dps macro and it takes more then 5 gcd to land a kill or u have to use purge or cc or cooperate with another dps to kill your target then its obvious dps is broken and too weak to do its job.

    Anytime you ask for a nerf to a class and base your point on what happend in a duel or against a dummy you fail to even begin to realize what the real issues are.

    Again in a game where paper, rock, scissor is how its balanced you need to factor in that healers are outnumbred 3 or 4 to 1 and need to be able to do their job while having to heal damage not from only one source but multiple sources of damage focused on the target they are healing. You cannot use 1v1 ever to balance pvp even 2v2 is not a good example at minimum you need to start at 3v3 and expect a healer to be able to keep up 2 people and themselves while taking damage from 2 others at the very least.

    Your not a great dps if you expect to blow cds and cc when ur target is at 100% hp and kill them regardless if its a healer or other dps. Players should be able to have time to react to damage and respond to it. Landing a kill should be about outplaying your target and getting them down to 30% and then using your big cc and cds to land the kill. Warfronts should be close matches won by small margins at the end by strategy not by whoever did more dps.
    I totally agree with your post, but Trion wants us to die and recycle quickly, and to make this happen is to keep heals to a minimum. 2.2 has announced they are fixing all of the healing bugs which basically means nerfing the heals that are already lacking. For those of us who have been healers before SL, are now considering their tactic and game play to be more DPS, and feel that is the right move. As a cleric (before SL), your priority was to heal and your secondary was dpsing. Currently with SL, most clerics are making the shift to where their new objective is to concentrate on dpsing and heals are now secondary. Unfortunately, it is a trend that make sense because healing as a PvP cleric is challenging esp. will the massive DPS they have to endure.

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  14. #29
    General of Telara Ardor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candoalot View Post
    Chloro may have infinite mana with no way to burn it all, but cleric healers have ways to increase our outgoing healing while burning 9-10% of our mana a cast (crucial invocation, healing effusion, explosive growth to name a few)

    If you want to make chloros have a way to increase outgoing healing at the expense of more mana too sure, but don't screw cleric healers over even more when our best heals cost a crap ton of mana already.
    The OP's idea is ill-considered and silly, for many reasons, but Candoalot has pointed out a very good one, and it bears repeating ^.

    If you are having trouble taking down healers, or focusing down a dps, in today's rift, you probably should just move on to another game.

    If you expect your spammed AoE to cause more damage than a raid healer can heal, then you probably should just move on to another game.

  15. #30
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    I know there is this tendency people have, whenever someone suggests something that is objectively negative for their aspect of pvp, to completely kneejerk in the opposite direction.

    Nerf a healer? Might as well get rid of all healing!

    You took information away from a duel? So now we're balancing the game 1v1!

    You want more dps specs to be viable? Like the game isn't already owned by dps!

    I'm sorry, but that's all nonsense. A suggestion to reduce mana regen rates/abilities such that healing standoffs don't last indefinitely is *not* the same thing as destroying healing.

    Healers should:

    - counter focus fire from 2-3 dps with moderate effort and maybe a cool down
    - keep a group up versus 1-2 aoe without breaking much of a sweat
    - heal themselves through 1 dps fairly easily, 1 good dps using cds at some expense
    - eventually run out of mana

    As a healer, I should have superior throughput versus dps. That's my advantage. If you want someone dead, and I decide he/she shouldn't die, I mostly win. But that power should come with a limitation of its own, and there should be ways to attack that weakness as well.

    There are also meta game shifts to consider. Right now, you queue healer and face off against 10+ burst dps specs. If other dps specs were viable, and drains were viable, you'd face off against fewer burst specs. New threats in, old threats reduced. More variety, more strategy, more depth. This team has a bunch of doms/vks (bring back vk drains, plz), so I better play carefully with regard to my blue bar. This team has a ton of glass cannons, so I better go balls out with cds, mana be darned, because surviving the first 30 seconds will determine everything.

    It's all so binary now. We blew them up before they blew us up, and now it's like nothing even happened to us. That's why we're farming their spawn point for the third game in a row, but that's cool because they were farming ours the two games before that...

    To be clear: changes like the ones I'm suggesting wouldn't change the first 1-2 minutes of a pvp encounter, for the most part. You might be a little more careful dumping with crucial invoke (and you should be, because that spell is meant to be used sparingly), but your throughput would be virtually the same. The change would happen after those opening minutes, in the event that both sides have been healing through all damage with relative ease. That's when healers running out of steam is a good thing.

    Also, this would only ever affect good healers. Bad healers would still die before they can exhaust their mana anyways. And really, that's sort of what this is about. Good healers are game changers. Good healers without mana concerns are game breakers.

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