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Thread: Warfront matchmaking still needs work!!!!!!!

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Warfront matchmaking still needs work!!!!!!!

    Adding in raid assist to all members joining a warfront was a HUGE bonus this patch. I cant describe how great it is to not having to deal with the inept to get raid assist. Kudos on that one.

    Youve still got work to do though. The fact I just lost 14 games in a row says as much. I lost 2 as a guardian, then got merced twice to defiant and lost both of those, back to guards for 4 losses, merced again to defiant and lost. YOu get the drift.

    Heres some problems as i see them:

    Joining games that are already lost:

    This is very annoying. You que up and get tossed into a match which is already so badly lost theres no hope to win. Its a waste of time. It has gotten so bad that the last match I entered before writing this post, the Defiant had 998 points. I literally entered and then the game ended.

    This should not happen. You should block out any match that is already X amount of time underway and/or where a team has scored, lets say, 75% of the total points needed to win.


    Matchmade against people epically more geared:

    I have not been lucky enough to be in a guild doing a lot of raiding yet. I have "decent" gear but it is mostly blues with drippings of epics. I have around 17k health in my main build, 21k health in an off build.

    I have been going into warfronts where ROGUES have 50k health Other mages have 25k health, etc.

    It is obvious these guys are wayyyy more geared and powerful than I am. When you get half an opposing team this well geared you may as well just sit on the res pad.

    I think you need to introduce an item level into the games items. I hate to take anything from WoW but it seems the easiest solution to giving a "number" to an tem for basis of comparing players for the system to matchmake.

    Matchmaking should only be done between players within, say, 100 ilevels of each other. TO combat abuse of this system, disallow item swapping in warfronts.


    Healing is necessary and powerful:

    EVen nerfed healing is obviously a very powerful tool. Normally the team with the most/best healers wins.

    What certainly IS true is that if one team has a healer and yours doesnt - youre gonna lose. I have never won a match without a healer if the other team had healers.

    I think players should have to que in as ROLES just like they do with the LFG ques. Its obviously already coded. Make it so teams have to be roughly balanced role wise (say within 1-2 healers of each other) for a game to launch. Make it so a match wont launch if one team has no healers and the other team does.

    Losing out due to a simple role imbalance is dumb.





    so in closing:

    -Block out games already lost
    -bracket the matchamking more based on the gear levels of both teams
    -Set up a ROLE based queing system so teams both have healers.


    These shouldnt be too hard to implement

  2. #2
    Ascendant Valnak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blakhart View Post
    Matchmade against people epically more geared:

    I have not been lucky enough to be in a guild doing a lot of raiding yet. I have "decent" gear but it is mostly blues with drippings of epics. I have around 17k health in my main build, 21k health in an off build.

    I have been going into warfronts where ROGUES have 50k health Other mages have 25k health, etc.

    It is obvious these guys are wayyyy more geared and powerful than I am. When you get half an opposing team this well geared you may as well just sit on the res pad.

    I think you need to introduce an item level into the games items. I hate to take anything from WoW but it seems the easiest solution to giving a "number" to an tem for basis of comparing players for the system to matchmake.

    Matchmaking should only be done between players within, say, 100 ilevels of each other. TO combat abuse of this system, disallow item swapping in warfronts.

    All gear is normalized in warfronts. You are 100% wrong about this. You are essentially saying that there is a skill gap and you're on the lower end of the skill curve here.

    Try reading patch notes sometime.

  3. #3
    Ascendant Appendy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blakhart View Post
    -Block out games already lost
    -bracket the matchamking more based on the gear levels of both teams
    -Set up a ROLE based queing system so teams both have healers.
    1. those "lost games" you speak of can be won. Win them.
    2. due to bolstering, no one is more 'epically' geared than you at this point (assuming you are lvl 60)
    3. you can't force someone to play a spec they don't want to play (in a pug). Ask nicely and someone might step up. If they don't, well there are stupid jerks in this world. Does this surprise you?

  4. #4
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    Biggest problem I see is there is a conflict between proper match making and even as much as 2 people designated themselves as a group for a single WF team.

    Not saying I am not in favor of better matches or have anything against people grouping together for WFs. But, a well made match making system would probably split teams up to do its job to the best of its ability. This worked great in FPS games where people didn't have imaginary attachments to one side. Also worked great because those games gave you a way to make private games so teams could choose their make-up and face off without a shuffle tossing them around.

    I am not sure what Rift needs to do for match making. There are good ideas, but we can't have all the cake and eat it. Many good ideas would take precedence over other existing methods of participating in WFs. And there are things lacking in our control that would make more robust match making a proper option for PUG games in general.

    I think even the ability to switch teams before a WF starts should be allowed. But then you would need the option to ready-up, not a strict countdown.

    Lots of stuff really needs a revamp and re-thinking if it is to be aimed towards more quality matches. Also, it has stuck in my mind since leaderboards came out and it was said that they aimed more to show 'fun/random' stats and less 'stuff that shows who the good and bad players are'. If matches are ever going to become higher quality for team make-up the dev team/powers above them is going to have to get over that little aspect.

    We can run around in candyland thinking were all evenly skilled and that make-up is not overly important, and keep having instances of more frequent lame matches. Or we can cut the BS and hone in on what actually does orchestrate good matches. Highschools have Junior Varsity and Varsity teams for a reason. It's almost like...sectioning people off on general skill and capability creates more fair and balanced match ups. Hmmm. Oh well, in Rift the freshmen who is trying the sport for the first time is perceived to be an equal contender with the 3rd year player who made MVP last year. Because we don't want the freshmen to really know that 3rd year guy is better than him. We'll just make it so the freshmen gets angry and doesn't realize why the games he plays feel like loopsided crap.
    New round up of some high rank matches
    Chun-Li*E.Honda*Evil Ryu
    Abel*Ibuki*Dhalsim
    Gouken*Zangief*Ryu

  5. #5
    Plane Touched Arynite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blakhart View Post
    This is very annoying. You que up and get tossed into a match which is already so badly lost theres no hope to win. Its a waste of time. It has gotten so bad that the last match I entered before writing this post, the Defiant had 998 points. I literally entered and then the game ended.
    I don't really mind entering so late that the match is practically over. It's free rewards, and you weren't the one turned into a punching bag for the entire match. Even better when it's a win, but I'll take a free loss.

    And like Appendy said, there's still a chance to turn a lot of matches around. I've zoned into Karthan Ridge matches where the enemy had already scored twice and had both sinks en route to the last drop point, and we completely turned the match around and won. It gives more satisfaction than a faceroll ledge camping BG match, that's for sure!

    And the 50k hp rogues are tanks. They tend to hit like wet noodles compared to their 20k brethren.
    Last edited by Arynite; 01-09-2013 at 05:16 PM.
    Eshlon@Greybriar

  6. #6
    Sword of Telara
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    someone plz post a screen shot of a rogue having 50k health in a warfront. i havent really messed around with rogue tank builds but i doubt this is even possible.

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple
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    @OP: As others have said, you are wrong about the gear. You can compete very well in the bolster gear you automatically have when you enter. The differences are small between the gear tiers, and if you are lower rank you'll be in WFs with people who mostly have the same as you anyway.
    The hp pool differences you see mostly come from defensive/offensive specs I am guessing.

    I agree that matchmaking needs some work.
    The late queue ins wouldn't be too bad if they happened occasionally, but you get streaks of 3 or 4 matches, and that can get annoying. I don't mind it too much, but I wouldn't blame anyone if they at one point say "F this, not worth queueing just to have to fix other people's mess".

    What I would like to see is a randomization of sides/people. Currently if at a certain time of the day healer count is lopsided, you end up with one side getting long loss streaks, which can be frustrating.
    Obviously much less of a problem at peak when many people are playing and you don't end up in games with the same few repeatedly.

    Healing is currently a bit bugged for some specs. This probably amplifies healer count imbalances.
    Last edited by Naelee; 01-09-2013 at 06:23 PM.

  8. #8
    Ascendant Pork Star's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blakhart View Post
    What certainly IS true is that if one team has a healer and yours doesnt - youre gonna lose. I have never won a match without a healer if the other team had healers.
    Only in the worst of pugs. All it takes is two halfway decent DPS players, or one good DPS(finger pointy time, an assassin or NB, usually) to nullify a healer. Yes, even the buggy healers.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pork Star View Post
    Only in the worst of pugs. All it takes is two halfway decent DPS players, or one good DPS(finger pointy time, an assassin or NB, usually) to nullify a healer. Yes, even the buggy healers.
    I agree one enemy healer should not be much of a problem, even in a PuG you can mostly focus him down easily enough, If you can't... you have bigger problems than just him.

    The tough ones are the totally lopsided matches with 3 or 4 enemy healers crosshealing while you have none or maybe 1. That's quite an uphill battle.

  10. #10
    Ascendant Bliter's Avatar
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    Default Sage sage sage sage sage sage sage sage sage sage sage sage sage sage sage sage

    Does anyone even have to explain why this was doa?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hailolyergory View Post
    All, Please nerf paper it is too strong, but leave scissors alone they are fine.
    Yours Truly,
    Rock.

  11. #11
    Soulwalker
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    Im not a dunce. I played this game at beta and at launch. Ive been around a long time. Probably longer than many of you repliers.

    I know what bolstering is. I say it doesnt work properly. Gear still imbalances the matches.


    I HAVE seen rogues with 50k health in warfronts. Sorry if you dont think its possible, maybe you should go ask them how they do it. Last match had a rogue with 42k health. Ive seen warriors as high as 56-58k.


    For those saying im on the lower end of the "skill curve", spare me. My rogue was one of the best in his brackets when i was playing him 6 months ago. The mage is slightly newer to me but its the same character I played beta, launch and for a while now. Im pretty clued in.

    Theres many imbalances still present in classes for sure. Ive been ONE SHOT by bloody nysyrs rebuke in WF's and its annoying. Im not drudging up class imbalancing here though, im talking about matchmaking.


    The matchmaking is horrendous in this game. TO lose match after match after match inherently tells this story. If matchmaking were better youd lose a few matches, maybe up to 50%. You certainly wouldnt lose 14 times in a tow to the point you say F this.

    I hate to compare to WoW but I never lost repeatedly time and again in WoW's BG system. I might have a run of bad luck and lose 2-3 in a row but thats it. Other games Ive played have had much more reasonable matchmaking than I am seeing out of Rift.

    It feels worse now at level 60 than it ever did at level 50. All the comments which, summed up, state "get better" are just ignorant of the facts.


    As far as "forcing" players into roles. WHy not? SImply make it that matches wont start with major mismatches in healing power. I see nothing wrong with this at all. You arent FORCING anyone to play what they dont want to - yous imply put your foot downa nd say this isnt gonna happen until teams are balanced.

    What I see happening is this:

    lets take a library match. 15 per side. 30 in total.

    side 1: 1 healer, 2 tanks (lol) and 12 dps

    side 2: 6 healers, 9 DPS

    Matchmaking system says "major imbalance here, lets even it up"
    either
    A) 2 healers from side 2 get merced to side 1 for an even 3-3 split
    or B) The matchmaking system peels off 4 healers from side 2 and puts them into a new que. Theyll wind up getting folded in with another lot of people queing up.

    You are thinking about it too literally. There wont be just one match going on. There could be 2, 3, 4 or dozens. It is just giving the matchmaking system more flexibility to balance teams out and ensuring each team has a more balanced equation.

    The same deal goes for the item level suggestion.
    Last edited by Blakhart; 01-09-2013 at 09:04 PM.

  12. #12
    Soulwalker
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    and to those saying " some of the matches you enter are winnable, win them"

    Yea.

    800 - 200 library. You gonna turn that one around?
    440 - 50 black garden. GOnna win that?


    im not talking about 50-100 or 300 vs 260. Im talking about the ones way blown out.

    I have seen teams be up 2-0 in Whitefall and lose. I know its possible to turn some of them around. But the majority of matches you walk into with a big gap in points are not salvageable - so please spare the "go win them" BS. Also, theres usually a reason the team you just joined is getting smacked around like rag dolls.

  13. #13
    Ascendant Valnak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blakhart View Post
    Im not a dunce.
    Smells like a new Majorin. What do you guys think?

  14. #14
    Ascendant
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    all nonsense.


    what we really need:

    seperate queue (really seperate not this mixed mambojambo we have right now) for teams/premades/guilds.
    5vs5 rated Warfronts only full groups can queue.
    perhaps a kind group finder for warfronts with fixed classes needed, like lfg for dungeons.

    this will fix SO MANY problems for random/pug players, that im really shocked its still not in this game.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blakhart View Post
    and to those saying " some of the matches you enter are winnable, win them"

    Yea.

    800 - 200 library. You gonna turn that one around?
    440 - 50 black garden. GOnna win that?


    im not talking about 50-100 or 300 vs 260. Im talking about the ones way blown out.

    I have seen teams be up 2-0 in Whitefall and lose. I know its possible to turn some of them around. But the majority of matches you walk into with a big gap in points are not salvageable - so please spare the "go win them" BS. Also, theres usually a reason the team you just joined is getting smacked around like rag dolls.
    didnt see you complain about the many warfronts you join which were already WON for you ^^

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