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Thread: An improvement to pvp

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default An improvement to pvp

    Looking at rift, being a beta tester, and knowing the potential Rift has, i decided to make a post in the forums. This is not a QQ thread, I am not complaining, but looking for a way to improve Player vs Player experience in Rift.

    Lets define the problem... What is wrong?

    1). PvP is a grind. In order to get Superior gear you must dedicate hours and hours into the game. There is little or no reward for being a good player, other than satisfaction of victory or bragging rights. *some will say I am wrong here, but thinking deep... What do you get out of being good?

    1*** Some ideas i came up with are:
    players will pick top 3 players on the team to award with a bonus exp/flavor/prestige due to their game-style/teamwork/helpfulness... etc. Players cannot vote themselves. A random button is featured, for those who don't care.

    Outcome: Players who try and are noticed will get rewarded... some player satisfaction.

    How to know a good player? Answer: a current system which is already in use... Leader boards, Each player, will have a chance to rate a player with either a + or a - ... after an amount of each players will be affected positively or negatively.

    Negative outcome results in longer wait times if a player leaves a WF... etc. I haven't put a lot of though into this one...
    Positive ratings will cause a player's name to be announced when he enters a WF, something not very useful but still cool.

    2). Rewards. They are dull... gear, and upgrades to that gear...

    2*** My idea was to improve that system: Mix it up a bit...

    Some rewards could include, but not limited to:
    A). Fluff gear, which would work great with current wardrobe system.
    B). A mount or some form of reward, which only good players can get. (I will compare this to the drake that in Burning Crusade [World Of Warcraft] was given out to top arena players)
    C). Maybe new dimension where it would be like a pit for dueling, or something of that sort... not game changing, yet UNIQUE.
    D). Maybe let a WF win pick a PvE reward, such as tokens or something... causing PvE players who finished their dungeons for the week or whatever have some interest in joining PvP.
    E). Allow favor to be converted into other currencies... once again, maybe a non PvP'er will be interested in giving PvP content a shot. Otherwise... what is there for them?

    Outcome: PvP will now be more of an attraction.

    3). Options: What can i say? They are limited...

    World PvP is almost dead... Sometimes you run into someone questing or farming materials in the world...

    Waterfronts: They were fun before Storm Legion, at least for a while. Now they just feel like a boring repetitive activity to kill time, just another thing to grind. I loved the idea of random waterfronts, that was a definite improvement.

    Conquest: It’s not as bad as people say it is... but, it has room for improvement.

    Lack of Content: self-explanatory...

    3*** My take on this:

    World PvP:

    [Trion indicated that the current map is three times as big, as the previous map before SL]

    This would be a major patch change... but add some form of map. Maybe zone, where it is 100% player controlled. Please not something dull like Wintergrasp or whatever it is called from World of Warcraft (haven't played it after early Wrath of Lich King.)
    Give us some form of source stones to defend. And with a built in timer, those source stones, just like rifts, will sent invasions... players could accompany them to take over other source-stones on the map. With time and resources these locations could be upgraded, resulting in stronger defenses and more invasions.
    There could be up to 10 source stones (or designated locations) on the map. Each faction would control as many as possible. For each source stones under control the faction would gain a favor/prestige increase only on the designated map/zone. On those maps there would be castles… those castles be the final points. In each castle a general would be placed… they would be very difficult to kill, requiring teamwork… like a raid boss. These generals would change weekly… Also killing a general would cause the opposite faction to be incapable to use the map for the week.
    During that time, PvE quests would be given out, greatly rewarding the winning faction.
    The map would be a carnage based map. Only quests would be given out at start locations (which are the castles) and could be turned in at any source-stone area.

    Waterfronts:

    Lets add more waterfronts. Maybe two, over the course of the expansion. New game styles, that have not been yet implemented in other games. Preferably a 5v5 and 40v40. Wink Wink ))




    Conquest:

    Increase turrets upgrades from 4 crystals to 10. When each turret is upgraded to a 10stackthe base health is increased by 50% for all turrets and the objective. This also causes Npc's to spawn to defend the objective. Implementing this change, will cause the current objective’s health to be greatly reduced.

    Rift has vehicles already built in. I bet in 2 months they could get catapult graphics established and working without a problem. Give us some vehicles in conquest… make teamwork matter.

    Lack of Content:

    Take a look at other games… they have a lot more. Start throwing things in, some will work others will not.
    Give us options… Arena is a big one (personally I would not mind it, but I know many don’t want it)
    Maybe give us a ring… like a free for all. With a ticket system. Pay x to enter… being top 5 gets you your money back…
    Victor gets all the stakes.
    Well thanks for listening… I am open to critizism and will be happy to hear any idea’s that you have. If anyone things they can add info or ideas it will only expand trion’s options in improving the game. Thanks again
    Quote Originally Posted by titansgrip View Post
    I have it on good authority that some Pyros do in fact play with their elbows rather than their face.

    Point of fact; Wolfman

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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  3. #3
    Ascendant Hartzekar's Avatar
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    Your systems and plans are great in theory, but they won't work in practice. The biggest issue I took with your post is the rating thing. Basing it off of scoreboards would be TERRIBLE. It would encourage KB stealing, ignoring objectives, and spamming useless AoE damage/healing.

    I agree with the fluff as reward for PvP. It's something we've all wanted for a long time.

    We could use some more warfronts, but they can't just be a "Run this to here" or "Hold this for as long as you can". They need to be fresh and innovative in style (a PvE example is the dream sequence quests in Eastern Holdings. That was totally different from regular PvE. We need something like that for PvP).
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    Ascendant Misun's Avatar
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    How to know a good player? Answer: a current system which is already in use... Leader boards, Each player, will have a chance to rate a player with either a + or a - ... after an amount of each players will be affected positively or negatively.
    This is a very, very bad idea.

    Very.

    but if the boards showed how many times you saved someone, could be healing OR peeling...something that would show team play. I would love that.

    But allowing other people to + or - another person would most certainly be abused.
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  5. #5
    Rift Disciple Sibylla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misun View Post
    This is a very, very bad idea.

    Very.

    but if the boards showed how many times you saved someone, could be healing OR peeling...something that would show team play. I would love that.

    But allowing other people to + or - another person would most certainly be abused.
    This idea is exactly what SWTOR had (maybe still has) although their leader boards provided usefully information for tanks as well. In my experience it was mostly top heals, top mitigation and players that stood out that got the mvp votes. Sure you have some derps that would just vote for top dps but that wasnt the typical case most of the time from my time ranking up a couple characters. Anyway maybe you arent giving people enough credit

  6. #6
    Shadowlander
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    Thanks for the feed back. Anyone has any ideas or suggestions? i would be more than happy to hear stuff.

    We do need a system to rate the good players from the bad ones... Many times in WF i have encountered AFK players, teammates who are immature and non-responsive, and just bad players as a whole. When entering a random WaterFront i rather have people around my rating around me.
    Quote Originally Posted by titansgrip View Post
    I have it on good authority that some Pyros do in fact play with their elbows rather than their face.

    Point of fact; Wolfman

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodgod44 View Post
    Thanks for the feed back. Anyone has any ideas or suggestions? i would be more than happy to hear stuff.

    We do need a system to rate the good players from the bad ones... Many times in WF i have encountered AFK players, teammates who are immature and non-responsive, and just bad players as a whole. When entering a random WaterFront i rather have people around my rating around me.
    have a gm observe any warfront and let him vote

  8. #8
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antigonos View Post
    have a gm observe any warfront and let him vote
    That "could" work, but i feel like they would have better things to do... So maybe some form of player/individual rating system:

    For example... when you inspect anyone there would be a player rating
    0-10 in each cat. (having some include PvE, PvP, Raiding, Instant Adventures and so on)


    Raiding:
    Understanding of content 0-10
    understanding teamwork 0-10
    knowing your role 0-10
    PvP
    communication 0-10
    Teamwork ...
    Helpfulness ...
    knowing your class ...
    etc...
    Quote Originally Posted by titansgrip View Post
    I have it on good authority that some Pyros do in fact play with their elbows rather than their face.

    Point of fact; Wolfman

  9. #9
    Shadowlander
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    No one interested in helping this thread out?
    Quote Originally Posted by titansgrip View Post
    I have it on good authority that some Pyros do in fact play with their elbows rather than their face.

    Point of fact; Wolfman

  10. #10
    Sword of Telara Atropus's Avatar
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    Any player-moderated karma system is going to be abused by PVP guilds.

    My suggestion? Give bonus rewards to players with the most objective or teamplay based involvement. Leading your team in "time defending an objective" in Codex? Bonus Favor/Prestige/Marks. Most "Saves"? Bonuses. Successful interrupts? Have some free stuff. This would promote more skillfull play.

    I wholeheartedly agree with fluff as incentive for PVP and a Siege map, btw.

  11. #11
    Shadowlander
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    Default Abuse is only part of the immature community

    anyone who is going to be playing rift maturely is going to let this system work... only people who will not do so are immature players who are selfish and greedy. now since there are a vote from everyone, they only can vote for a different player... this will let only 1 person to get the reward bonus or etc. therefore it will not be MAJORLY abused.
    Quote Originally Posted by titansgrip View Post
    I have it on good authority that some Pyros do in fact play with their elbows rather than their face.

    Point of fact; Wolfman

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodgod44 View Post
    anyone who is going to be playing rift maturely is going to let this system work... only people who will not do so are immature players who are selfish and greedy. now since there are a vote from everyone, they only can vote for a different player... this will let only 1 person to get the reward bonus or etc. therefore it will not be MAJORLY abused.
    Firstly, this line is already the answer to your implied question: "anyone who is going to be playing rift maturely is going to let this system work...". I'm probably putting my head above the parapet and drawing a nifty target on my back right now, but I'll dare say that you'll be dealing with a minority. Might be me though, being all negative and such.

    Secondly, while I don't wish to condemn the idea in its entirety, I'll have to agree with those posters, who have pointed out that such systems are most likely prone to abuse. All it would take are 5 individuals, who don't need to be in one guild, nor have to be friends, but for example know each other from past WFs (in a more or less positive way). 5/15 players voting for one of them + any one or two random dudes/dudettes chiming in and your pukesalad is perfect for serving. Especially, when such things are arranged beforehand. In that case, join WFs 24/7 with a PUG and decide upon whose turn it is next.
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  13. #13
    Telaran Kedoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodgod44 View Post
    Looking at rift, being a beta tester, and knowing the potential Rift has, i decided to make a post in the forums. This is not a QQ thread, I am not complaining, but looking for a way to improve Player vs Player experience in Rift.
    This is going to come across as me being overly critical, but here it goes:

    Anyone can be a BETA tester now-a-days, depending on what BETA you enter, how many the company has, etc.

    RIFT actually has no pure-PvP driven potential; it's two shining gems are it's class system and the rate of content pushed out. Our warfront mechanics are extremely basic, and the number of them to participate in is severely low. Conquest is wannabe-RvR that possess the same problems as WAR and DAoC did, while sporting nothing ground-breaking in terms of design, class roles, or environment (it actually goes backwards in some of those areas). PvP rifts were never an active part of PvP server environments, unless it became an event run by guilds and even then, it was just defend/run/defend/run/defend/run.

    As for your ideas:

    1). PvP is a grind. In order to get Superior gear you must dedicate hours and hours into the game. There is little or no reward for being a good player, other than satisfaction of victory or bragging rights. *some will say I am wrong here, but thinking deep... What do you get out of being good?

    1*** Some ideas i came up with are:
    players will pick top 3 players on the team to award with a bonus exp/flavor/prestige due to their game-style/teamwork/helpfulness... etc. Players cannot vote themselves. A random button is featured, for those who don't care.

    Outcome: Players who try and are noticed will get rewarded... some player satisfaction.
    MMOs have evolved into grindfests, it just depends on how well the grind is hidden by carrots. It's a sad truth, but a truth none-the-less.

    PvP is a competitive game aspect. That, "other than satisfaction of victory or bragging rights.", comment is you asking for more than what is needed. Healthy competition needs only be rewarded by basic carrots and the joy in your victory. Asking for a visual aide for other players to see your epeen is also unnecessary, since players naturally discuss who is the best and do genuinely give credit it when it's do.

    In terms of your solution (as someone already mentioned), guilds would abuse the bonus rewards without even flinching, regardless of how mature they are. The random button feature would also be counter-productive, as the whole point of the system would be to actively reward those who are noticeably skilled/critical to the match.

    Positive ratings will cause a player's name to be announced when he enters a WF, something not very useful but still cool.
    This is actually an interesting idea, because it's socially competitive, if the system it's derived from is decent.

    2). Rewards. They are dull... gear, and upgrades to that gear...

    2*** My idea was to improve that system: Mix it up a bit...

    Some rewards could include, but not limited to:
    A). Fluff gear, which would work great with current wardrobe system.
    Fluff gear is indeed always nice, and is cheap to create (in terms of time and resources) allowing a mass a mount of rewards to be added.

    D). Maybe let a WF win pick a PvE reward, such as tokens or something... causing PvE players who finished their dungeons for the week or whatever have some interest in joining PvP.
    E). Allow favor to be converted into other currencies... once again, maybe a non PvP'er will be interested in giving PvP content a shot. Otherwise... what is there for them?

    Outcome: PvP will now be more of an attraction.
    Your ideas would result in literally countless afk/leechers from PvE coming into warfronts just to get the extra chance at their PvE reward(s).

    Your seeming intent to build a bridge between PvE and PvP is 180 degrees from what players throughout many MMOs have decided they loathe, the mixture of PvE and PvP. Both gameplay aspects have been proven to excel when seperated.

    Making PvP more of an attraction isn't something a company can do (well). Like I said before, it's a competitive aspect, and well all play MMOs for different reasons.

    Conquest: It’s not as bad as people say it is... but, it has room for improvement.
    It is as bad as they say.

    World PvP: ....
    That idea, again, is 180 degrees from the direction MMOs are trying (need) to go. It took WAR 2+ years to finally remove NPCs from ORvR and they still added some back in.

    RvR is at it's best with realm pride, where players will actively defend points and run objectives themselves. Letting NPCs guard/run objectives lets the zerg maintain it's size with no repercussions, allowing the realm with the most players to win with a significant amount of ease.

    In addition to my above point, NPC generals are also a coders nightmare. The amount of times fort/keep lords bugged out in WAR because they switched aggro 12 times in 2 seconds is countless.

    "DRAGONWAKE KEEP BUGGED! PUSH THUNER MOUNTAIN!"

    Your "waterfront" comment is basic, but actually makes a hidden point. With the introduction of random warfronts, a large selection of warfronts would be beneficiary.

    Conquest:
    I feel the need to repeat myself here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kedoss View Post
    Also, remember Skaven in Warhammer? >.>
    Lack of Content:
    It's a very general concern for PvP throughout MMORPGs at the moment. We've been fighting in the same general ways for years, new concepts need to arise. Your ideas have a tiny amount of merit there, but aren't polished enough.

    __________________

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodgod44 View Post
    Looking at rift, being a beta tester, and knowing the potential Rift has, i decided to make a post in the forums. This is not a QQ thread, I am not complaining, but looking for a way to improve Player vs Player experience in Rift.

    Lets define the problem... What is wrong?

    1). PvP is a grind. In order to get Superior gear you must dedicate hours and hours into the game. There is little or no reward for being a good player, other than satisfaction of victory or bragging rights. *some will say I am wrong here, but thinking deep... What do you get out of being good?

    1*** Some ideas i came up with are:
    players will pick top 3 players on the team to award with a bonus exp/flavor/prestige due to their game-style/teamwork/helpfulness... etc. Players cannot vote themselves. A random button is featured, for those who don't care.

    Outcome: Players who try and are noticed will get rewarded... some player satisfaction.

    How to know a good player? Answer: a current system which is already in use... Leader boards, Each player, will have a chance to rate a player with either a + or a - ... after an amount of each players will be affected positively or negatively.

    Negative outcome results in longer wait times if a player leaves a WF... etc. I haven't put a lot of though into this one...
    Positive ratings will cause a player's name to be announced when he enters a WF, something not very useful but still cool.

    2). Rewards. They are dull... gear, and upgrades to that gear...

    2*** My idea was to improve that system: Mix it up a bit...

    Some rewards could include, but not limited to:
    A). Fluff gear, which would work great with current wardrobe system.
    B). A mount or some form of reward, which only good players can get. (I will compare this to the drake that in Burning Crusade [World Of Warcraft] was given out to top arena players)
    C). Maybe new dimension where it would be like a pit for dueling, or something of that sort... not game changing, yet UNIQUE.
    D). Maybe let a WF win pick a PvE reward, such as tokens or something... causing PvE players who finished their dungeons for the week or whatever have some interest in joining PvP.
    E). Allow favor to be converted into other currencies... once again, maybe a non PvP'er will be interested in giving PvP content a shot. Otherwise... what is there for them?

    Outcome: PvP will now be more of an attraction.

    3). Options: What can i say? They are limited...

    World PvP is almost dead... Sometimes you run into someone questing or farming materials in the world...

    Waterfronts: They were fun before Storm Legion, at least for a while. Now they just feel like a boring repetitive activity to kill time, just another thing to grind. I loved the idea of random waterfronts, that was a definite improvement.

    Conquest: It’s not as bad as people say it is... but, it has room for improvement.

    Lack of Content: self-explanatory...

    3*** My take on this:

    World PvP:

    [Trion indicated that the current map is three times as big, as the previous map before SL]

    This would be a major patch change... but add some form of map. Maybe zone, where it is 100% player controlled. Please not something dull like Wintergrasp or whatever it is called from World of Warcraft (haven't played it after early Wrath of Lich King.)
    Give us some form of source stones to defend. And with a built in timer, those source stones, just like rifts, will sent invasions... players could accompany them to take over other source-stones on the map. With time and resources these locations could be upgraded, resulting in stronger defenses and more invasions.
    There could be up to 10 source stones (or designated locations) on the map. Each faction would control as many as possible. For each source stones under control the faction would gain a favor/prestige increase only on the designated map/zone. On those maps there would be castles… those castles be the final points. In each castle a general would be placed… they would be very difficult to kill, requiring teamwork… like a raid boss. These generals would change weekly… Also killing a general would cause the opposite faction to be incapable to use the map for the week.
    During that time, PvE quests would be given out, greatly rewarding the winning faction.
    The map would be a carnage based map. Only quests would be given out at start locations (which are the castles) and could be turned in at any source-stone area.

    Waterfronts:

    Lets add more waterfronts. Maybe two, over the course of the expansion. New game styles, that have not been yet implemented in other games. Preferably a 5v5 and 40v40. Wink Wink ))




    Conquest:

    Increase turrets upgrades from 4 crystals to 10. When each turret is upgraded to a 10stackthe base health is increased by 50% for all turrets and the objective. This also causes Npc's to spawn to defend the objective. Implementing this change, will cause the current objective’s health to be greatly reduced.

    Rift has vehicles already built in. I bet in 2 months they could get catapult graphics established and working without a problem. Give us some vehicles in conquest… make teamwork matter.

    Lack of Content:

    Take a look at other games… they have a lot more. Start throwing things in, some will work others will not.
    Give us options… Arena is a big one (personally I would not mind it, but I know many don’t want it)
    Maybe give us a ring… like a free for all. With a ticket system. Pay x to enter… being top 5 gets you your money back…
    Victor gets all the stakes.
    Well thanks for listening… I am open to critizism and will be happy to hear any idea’s that you have. If anyone things they can add info or ideas it will only expand trion’s options in improving the game. Thanks again
    Good effort but don't bother, OP. If they haven't already (I'm not going to bother looking through the entire thread), the 12 people who think there's nothing really seriously wrong with Rift PvP will be along to derail your thread with nonsense.
    Moved on from Rift due to: Rift's PvP being a mindless, skilless zerg that has been and will continue to be perpetuated and reinforced :: A horribly optimized engine :: My personal distaste for F2P (already heading down the P2W path) after giving it a fair shake. Rift is an exceptional MMO by an overachieving development team that unfortunately is ruined by a few personally show-stopping issues.

  15. #15
    Ascendant Baramos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartzekar View Post
    Basing it off of scoreboards would be TERRIBLE.
    With my -4.29 billion damage done every game it is safe to say I would be at the bottom.
    Last edited by Baramos; 01-05-2013 at 01:36 PM.
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