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Thread: NB/RS a bit OP and needs some adjustment

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    Default NB/RS a bit OP and needs some adjustment

    Trion

    As a Rogue who plays NB/RS frequently because it is our strongest spec, and as a Rogue whom plays this class as my main, I'm fine to admit that NB/RS is OP at the moment and needs some adjustment. The issue is that the spec brings absolutely huge survivability along with absolutely huge single-target damage. 1v1, there is no spec in the game I've found that can hang with NB/RS. Further, you give an NB/RS one pocket healer and you have yourself someone who can shred through the other team rather quickly.

    I literally just got out of a match of Black Garden where the opposing team was 7/10 Rogues and 6 of those Rogues were NB/RS. Needless to say, the match was extremely lopsided with a final score of 500 - 114.

    The NB/RS spec has been around for a long time. However, it has never been this strong. Prior to 2.0, I used to jokingly refer to NB/RS as a flavor of the month "gnat" spec that all new Rogues would run. It did very little damage compared to other specs like Saboteur or Marksman but had astronomical survivability which lead to a Rogue blinking around with little threat of dying while doing minimal damage. Further, the spec was trivialized by a single Marksman who would simply spam Eradicate thus keeping all the helpful buffs off the NB/RS. With Eradicate having a 3s CD now, this isn't possible as the number of buffs the spec puts up far exceeds that which can be reasonably purged.

    Nowadays, that same Rogue is blinking around with little threat of dying but doing ridiculous damage. As a Rogue myself, I'm not afraid to admit this as, above all else, I want this game to be as balanced as possible across the board.

    So here is my proposition:

    Make Stalker Phase increase incoming damage by 10% as a tradeoff for doing increased damage yourself. Further, reduce the damage on Dusk Strike and Twilight Force by around 10-20% but increase the damage done by Fiery Spike to balance out any hit NB might take from DS and TF reduction in PvE.

    Thanks!
    Moved on from Rift due to: Rift's PvP being a mindless, skilless zerg that has been and will continue to be perpetuated and reinforced :: A horribly optimized engine :: My personal distaste for F2P (already heading down the P2W path) after giving it a fair shake. Rift is an exceptional MMO by an overachieving development team that unfortunately is ruined by a few personally show-stopping issues.

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    Calling NB/RS the rogue's strongest spec? Really?

    I'm fine with nerfing it because it's a mid tier spec that gives people a lot of slack to cover for poor play and all the baddies have flocked to it since 1.5, but it's far from the rogue's strongest spec. I mean, I've seen it played (including by you), and I've played it, and it's exactly what it's been for the past year or so. Compared to other straight dps specs, the output is pretty middling -- maybe it's strong, relatively, because of the smaller pool of healers/lack of Eradicate/whatever, but it's still going to lag behind about five other PvP rogue builds for ST and/or ST burst.

    So, yes, nerf it, even if I don't agree entirely with your premise.

    Edit: Other specs should be getting a swing with the nerf bat before this one, anyway.
    Last edited by Kyera; 12-07-2012 at 11:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyera View Post
    Calling NB/RS the rogue's strongest spec? Really?

    I'm fine with nerfing it because it's a mid tier spec that gives people a lot of slack to cover for poor play and all the baddies have flocked to it since 1.5, but it's far from the rogue's strongest spec. I mean, I've seen it played (including by you), and I've played it, and it's exactly what it's been for the past year or so.
    What specs are stronger? MM certainly isn't. Tac is situationally very strong. Sin/RS has huge ST damage but almost no survivability.

    There is no spec the Rogue has that combines this much survivability with this much damage so let's be honest with ourselves. Further, saying that the spec is exactly as it's been for a long time really betrays your bias. NB/RS didn't used to do anywhere near this damage. It was a decent spec that could be good in the hands of new players and was a go-to spec for most Rogue given its survivability. Further, it was heavily countered by a single Marksman that could spam Eradicate every GCD to strip all buffs - something that is no longer possible.
    Last edited by Synovia; 12-07-2012 at 11:04 AM.
    Moved on from Rift due to: Rift's PvP being a mindless, skilless zerg that has been and will continue to be perpetuated and reinforced :: A horribly optimized engine :: My personal distaste for F2P (already heading down the P2W path) after giving it a fair shake. Rift is an exceptional MMO by an overachieving development team that unfortunately is ruined by a few personally show-stopping issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Synovia View Post
    What specs are stronger? MM certainly isn't. Tac is situationally very strong. Sin/RS has huge ST damage but almost no survivability.

    There is no spec the Rogue has that combines this much survivability with this much damage so let's be honest with ourselves.
    MM is stronger. The right Tac build is stronger. Sin/RS is stronger from a raw output perspective and is certainly still in the ballpark of survivability of NB/RS. So, yes, I'd say there are several builds that are stronger. There is no spec that combines that much survivability with the NB's level of damage, but the NB/RS's level of damage is still on the low tier compared to all of the other offensively-oriented specs -- especially those that can afford to eschew durability in exchange for other tools in the toolchest.

    NB/RS is exactly what it's been for the past year: a spec for novices and/or solo queuers that combines mid-tier damage with escape tools and a fair bit of passive mitigation. It's ostensibly less effective than it was before relative to other dps performers, but appears stronger owing to the lack of support in play to offset it. NB/RS wasn't doing a thing when Puris were lolsilly, para exemplar.

    I really need Topo to come in here to talk about that Library the three of us were in. I'd love to engage in storytime about all of the NB/RS muppets that have tried to maul my face off over the past week and a half -- assuming I'm not in a 1v1 situation (because 1v1 doesn't matter), it's a non-issue. They're not winning the race and at worst we'll stalemate.

    That being said, nerf it. It's low on the skill curve totem pole and it's got a disproportionate performance-to-skill ratio in the current paradigm -- maybe that's the premise that should be used.
    Last edited by Kyera; 12-07-2012 at 11:08 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyera View Post
    MM is stronger. The right Tac build is stronger. Sin/RS is stronger from a raw output perspective and is certainly still in the ballpark of survivability of NB/RS. So, yes, I'd say there are several builds that are stronger. There is no spec that combines that much survivability with the NB's level of damage, but the NB/RS's level of damage is still on the low tier compared to all of the other offensively-oriented specs -- especially those that can afford to eschew durability in exchange for other tools in the toolchest.

    NB/RS is exactly what it's been for the past year: a spec for novices and/or solo queuers that combines mid-tier damage with escape tools and a fair bit of passive mitigation. It's ostensibly less effective than it was before relative to other dps performers, but appears stronger owing to the lack of support in play to offset it. NB/RS wasn't doing a thing when Puris were lolsilly, para exemplar.

    I really need Topo to come in here to talk about that Library the three of us were in. I'd love to engage in storytime about all of the NB/RS muppets that have tried to maul my face off over the past week and a half -- assuming I'm not in a 1v1 situation (because 1v1 doesn't matter), it's a non-issue. They're not winning the race and at worst we'll stalemate.
    MM does less damage and has negligible survivability. If you are getting hit as Marksman, you are going to die. Warriors can kill me at with spears as MM.

    What Tac build are you even referring to? Tac is a one-trick pony: AoE on clumped groups. Single target, Tac is borderline worthless.

    I can say with confidence - and I'll issue this as a challenge - I don't believe there to be a single spec that can beat NB/RS completely 1v1. I will have Marksman dead in about 5-10 seconds even if I stay completely at range from them.
    Last edited by Synovia; 12-07-2012 at 11:11 AM.
    Moved on from Rift due to: Rift's PvP being a mindless, skilless zerg that has been and will continue to be perpetuated and reinforced :: A horribly optimized engine :: My personal distaste for F2P (already heading down the P2W path) after giving it a fair shake. Rift is an exceptional MMO by an overachieving development team that unfortunately is ruined by a few personally show-stopping issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Synovia View Post
    MM does less damage and has negligible survivability. If you are getting hit as Marksman, you are going to die. Warriors can kill me at with spears as MM.
    You pretty much lost me at "MM does less damage". I need to go see if I have some screens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synovia View Post
    What Tac build are you even referring to? Tac is a one-trick pony: AoE on clumped groups. Single target, Tac is borderline worthless.
    I don't have the spec sheet in front of me but suffice it to say it I ran into an active forum participant giving it a go and we were pretty neck-and-neck in our head to head race. I don't think it's one of the ones bandied about on the rogue boards (neither the one that Dunsparrow dismissed offhand or the one that someone else posted that blew), but I haven't double-checked the stat sheets.

    P.S. If your argument is that the class is ridiculous in 1v1 situations, so be it, but I've never been a fan of balancing around 1v1 situations. The build has always been derpy good in that situtation, including pre-SL, because cooldowns.
    Last edited by Kyera; 12-07-2012 at 11:13 AM.
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    Champion of Telara kronor's Avatar
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    MM>Nb/Rs for overall damage, opener with SoD and yes the burst is nice especially with 25 SoD Procs but once they run out the damage isnt that good. MM just sets a high pace and keeps it there with 0 downtime plus you arent tab fodder either

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    NB/RS is fine, I can kill em, they can kill me I don't see anything OP here, OP

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    MM does considerable more damage than NB/RS. Always had.
    One dying more as an MM is an L2P issue.


    NB/RS is strong because its super easy, like it has always been, and that's more because of the plethora of CDs, Sin/RS was the better spec since I believe 1.8 (well that's when I switched to sin/RS anyway).


    NB/RS is the FischerPrice spec of rogues. It works, its easy, but hardly the best. And the only way to nerf any RS build is to tie a crap ton of stuff to guardian phase.

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    Im a rogue aswell, and i do feel like the NB/RS specc is way too strong, and the strongest spec out there atm.

    If you want to change my mind, show me that any other rogue spec can singlehandedly take down 3-4 players (none of them healers tho) of equal gear. This has happened to me quite a few times over the last week.

    And i am playing a MM pvp specc atm.. im no pro tho but, sure its great dmg output, decent burst and so on.. but if i accidently run into a NB/RS rogue on my own... im toast. Not only does he have about the same damage output i do, he does it at range with more hp, shields and heals than i do.

    Its not even up for discussion atm wether a MM rogue or a NB/RS rogue wins a duel.. its just plain fact that the latter one will steamroll the fight without problem.

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    Just had a Cleric in the guild do some testing with me. We dueled several times - a few as NB/RS and a few as MM. Afterwards he and talked about the differences. The setting was that I was going to open on him and blow all CDs. For NB/RS, this was as follows:

    Open with Dark Malady for the damage increase, blink to get Ruthless Stalker up and get 2 more CP, Dusk Strike to 5CP and then pop Scourge of Darkness. I then popped Ebon Fury and spammed Dusk Strike on him. He was dead before I even got to use Blazing Strike the first time.

    For the second duel, I didn't have Ebon Fury up and I still killed him at the same time just as I ran out of Energy from Dusk Strike spam.

    For MM, it was as follows:

    Swift Shot to 5CP, use Free Recoil==>Rapid Fire Shot + Empowered Shot + Quick Reload + Free Recoil + Rapid Fire Shot into Strafe. He died on the second tick of Strafe.

    Overall the consensus was that NB/NS did more damage overall but that MM had more on-demand burst so long as CDs were available. He agreed that when you partner the huge survivability of NB/RS along with it's higher overall damage, you had an OP spec.
    Moved on from Rift due to: Rift's PvP being a mindless, skilless zerg that has been and will continue to be perpetuated and reinforced :: A horribly optimized engine :: My personal distaste for F2P (already heading down the P2W path) after giving it a fair shake. Rift is an exceptional MMO by an overachieving development team that unfortunately is ruined by a few personally show-stopping issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    MM does considerable more damage than NB/RS. Always had.
    One dying more as an MM is an L2P issue.


    NB/RS is strong because its super easy, like it has always been, and that's more because of the plethora of CDs, Sin/RS was the better spec since I believe 1.8 (well that's when I switched to sin/RS anyway).


    NB/RS is the FischerPrice spec of rogues. It works, its easy, but hardly the best. And the only way to nerf any RS build is to tie a crap ton of stuff to guardian phase.
    Sin/RS does slightly more damage than NB/RS but has substantially lower survivability.
    Moved on from Rift due to: Rift's PvP being a mindless, skilless zerg that has been and will continue to be perpetuated and reinforced :: A horribly optimized engine :: My personal distaste for F2P (already heading down the P2W path) after giving it a fair shake. Rift is an exceptional MMO by an overachieving development team that unfortunately is ruined by a few personally show-stopping issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Synovia View Post
    Sin/RS does slightly more damage than NB/RS but has substantially lower survivability.
    That is true. But the survivability never really got in my way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Synovia View Post
    Single target, Tac is borderline worthless.
    I think we should buff tactician in pvp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyera View Post
    I don't have the spec sheet in front of me but suffice it to say it I ran into an active forum participant giving it a go and we were pretty neck-and-neck in our head to head race.
    I need to type less~ That wasn't even a great run of the thing. Good times though.
    Last edited by Violacea; 12-07-2012 at 11:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synovia View Post
    Sin/RS does slightly more damage than NB/RS but has substantially lower survivability.
    Sin/Rs is more of a 1v1 spec, its handy for using to defend vault or kill flag carriers in scion, outisde of that its suicide to try and go mellee with it.

    Nb/Rs does need looking at though, its way to easy to cut through 90% of specs with ease. I have done a few 3v1 with the spec and won and i felt like i had cheated with just how absurd it is

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