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Thread: PvP Balance

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    Default PvP Balance

    My one serious question to the Devs is, does pve prevent obvious changes needed for a more balanced pvp environment?

    In other words, for example, everyone knows (this is not a discussion or whine or asking for thoughts) that rogues in general (MM, Assassin) put out too much damage for pvp (in general; skill aside). Almost everyone agrees with this, yet no tweaking down of abilities has been implemented. Warriors for the longest time were in a similar state prior-for over 1/2 a year or more I believe? It seems the only things that do get changed in any agreeable amount of time are game-breaking abilities that would cause pvp to fail as a whole with people quitting left and right.

    I will also mention before I go on that builds take a while to get used to and L2P does have its place, for sure. This thread is for those that have L2P and have reached the skill level where they know what is broken and what is not. If you are in a calling and getting hammered in pvp change your build, ask some advice from other people, and get good at hitting the right buttons when you need them. ALL callings have very powerful builds, mentioned below. The only complaint that someone who is experienced should be making about their overall class is that certain trees are gimp, and could use more beefing (higher up) in the trees. The lower the beefing in the tiers the more OP you will make the already OP builds by letting them dip into these low hanging fruit.

    Now we have certain overpowered classes. Clerics Inq with Rebuke, Mages Pyro or a well-played pyro dom. They also need tuning down, yet how long does it take to get done, if it is even done at all?

    My one suggestion to fix, or tune-down, classes would be to rework the tier trees. For example, using rogues again, it is far too easy to work your way through any of the trees picking only damage stacking abilities. Even the passives for most the trees is all damage. Hence the result, too much damage (for pvp). With the other classes you generally have to pick talents that 1. Don't do anything for you or 2. Are weed-through talents to get to a good one.

    The other thing I would look at is CC across the board. In some callings its a lot higher up in trees to get a decent mix, and in other callings thats where ALL the CC is for pvp. Why no side options for all the trees. Example: For mage you get a 3 point (30%) reduction in stuns and silences in the pyro tree. Why? Why is there not an option in another tree for something of equal value if I so chose to take it that would do something in pvp for me? I don't want the trees chock-full of them, but why the mentality of pyro is the pvp tree (or at least that's what it would seem from looking at it). We could also use MM too. Speed boost, range, silences all in one tree. Easy stuns hanging low in other trees you dip into (which boost damage anyways so its all good). The fix on some things was to change its location in the tier section higher up, why not use this same process to fix the broken?

    I tried my best to be constructive since most threads break out into arguments. I've made every calling, have a 50 warrior, mage, cleric, and created a rogue to look at it in a "why are things like they are" inquisitive manner. Overall I'm just wondering if things can't change really because pve trumps pvp, because I"m sure most people are going, why doesn't Trion just tweak things down 5-10% at a time until its in line?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrastion View Post
    My one serious question to the Devs is, does pve prevent obvious changes needed for a more balanced pvp environment?

    In other words, for example, everyone knows (this is not a discussion or whine or asking for thoughts) that rogues in general (MM, Assassin) put out too much damage for pvp (in general; skill aside). Almost everyone agrees with this, yet no tweaking down of abilities has been implemented. Warriors for the longest time were in a similar state prior-for over 1/2 a year or more I believe? It seems the only things that do get changed in any agreeable amount of time are game-breaking abilities that would cause pvp to fail as a whole with people quitting left and right.

    I will also mention before I go on that builds take a while to get used to and L2P does have its place, for sure. This thread is for those that have L2P and have reached the skill level where they know what is broken and what is not. If you are in a calling and getting hammered in pvp change your build, ask some advice from other people, and get good at hitting the right buttons when you need them. ALL callings have very powerful builds, mentioned below. The only complaint that someone who is experienced should be making about their overall class is that certain trees are gimp, and could use more beefing (higher up) in the trees. The lower the beefing in the tiers the more OP you will make the already OP builds by letting them dip into these low hanging fruit.

    Now we have certain overpowered classes. Clerics Inq with Rebuke, Mages Pyro or a well-played pyro dom. They also need tuning down, yet how long does it take to get done, if it is even done at all?

    My one suggestion to fix, or tune-down, classes would be to rework the tier trees. For example, using rogues again, it is far too easy to work your way through any of the trees picking only damage stacking abilities. Even the passives for most the trees is all damage. Hence the result, too much damage (for pvp). With the other classes you generally have to pick talents that 1. Don't do anything for you or 2. Are weed-through talents to get to a good one.

    The other thing I would look at is CC across the board. In some callings its a lot higher up in trees to get a decent mix, and in other callings thats where ALL the CC is for pvp. Why no side options for all the trees. Example: For mage you get a 3 point (30%) reduction in stuns and silences in the pyro tree. Why? Why is there not an option in another tree for something of equal value if I so chose to take it that would do something in pvp for me? I don't want the trees chock-full of them, but why the mentality of pyro is the pvp tree (or at least that's what it would seem from looking at it). We could also use MM too. Speed boost, range, silences all in one tree. Easy stuns hanging low in other trees you dip into (which boost damage anyways so its all good). The fix on some things was to change its location in the tier section higher up, why not use this same process to fix the broken?

    I tried my best to be constructive since most threads break out into arguments. I've made every calling, have a 50 warrior, mage, cleric, and created a rogue to look at it in a "why are things like they are" inquisitive manner. Overall I'm just wondering if things can't change really because pve trumps pvp, because I"m sure most people are going, why doesn't Trion just tweak things down 5-10% at a time until its in line?
    as for rogues ill anwer cause im rogue! assassin is not OP, it is the best spec for 1vs1 and that what should be, an assassin is suppose to kill anyone 1vs1 because that is the spec about, assasin 1vs2 will die cause that is suppose to happen.

    NB can handle 1vs2 and is more warfront spec to play, again not OP

    Range MM,ect are way OP! i can run MM and be unstoppable from 35 metres for fun, and is not rogue the problem is that range pvp dps is a lot better than melee, that is the problem!

    trion should reduce range dps about 50%, MM and Tempest can rule wf. and mellee players will die in 4 sec from a range without even notice it.

    thats the problem

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrastion View Post
    In other words, for example, everyone knows
    Maybe it's not really everybody. Not everybody on the forum agrees and the forum itself is a minority, and a minority with an opinion that may or may not be accurate or reflect those with a better data viewpoint than us.
    Last edited by Violacea; 12-03-2012 at 01:47 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valsamis1985 View Post
    as for rogues ill anwer cause im rogue! assassin is not OP, it is the best spec for 1vs1 and that what should be, an assassin is suppose to kill anyone 1vs1 because that is the spec about

    This wasn't in my rift pvp manual.


    Now when you have 1 spec that is de facto winner of all 1v1 fights, that constitute it being OP.
    Last edited by Eughe; 12-03-2012 at 01:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    Maybe it's not really everybody. Not everybody on the forum agrees and the forum itself is a minority, and a minority with an opinion that may or may not be accurate or reflect those with a better data viewpoint than us.
    It's already known pvp'ers are a minority for Rift. Stating those who post in the pvp section "might" be the minority is not in question. I think I covered that in my post which is why the first question was what it was regarding pve affecting the lack of pvp changes. You missed the boat defending a Calling.

    On a side note, and this is not to be mean, when you know your class well you know which builds are overpowered. When you don't you think your class isn't (because, again not to be mean, you aren't that good so you don't see good results). A good example would be other mages stating Chloro sucks. I read it all the time. I play mage main and its really good so far (havent hit 60 yet), and I top healing charts in Wf's sometimes. Overpowered isn't something hidden to regular Pvper's. It's obvious to other players as well...hence the no nonsense statements I put in my post. You might have missed those statements.

    If you want data I don't take screenshots or any of that simply because I look at WF stats every WF and I'm too lazy to bother. Other posts of complaints (which most run the same trend of complaints, hence I go back to the no nonsense thing I keep talking about) have numerous data and people complaining about the same stuff. If you want to get specific let me know how many harbinger complaint posts there are, how many paladin complaint posts there are, how many Warden complaint posts there are, and how many MM complaint posts there are. You'll get your data quickly. I'm also speaking up to date posts not old versions since changed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    This wasn't in my rift pvp manual.


    Now when you have 1 spec that is de facto winner of all 1v1 fights, that constitute it being OP.
    I was going to state that they, by definition, described what OP was but you beat me to it. I"m curious what they think the definition of balance is....I think there is a quote by Majorin that describes pvp warrior balance. Accept it.

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    To OP:

    My mage gets destroyed by MM, sins, tempests, cleric's "rebuke". I am not necessarily in the top 5 dps every match but I am often times the top dps among mages. Balanced?
    Beyond the point of caring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrastion View Post
    I was going to state that they, by definition, described what OP was but you beat me to it. I"m curious what they think the definition of balance is....I think there is a quote by Majorin that describes pvp warrior balance. Accept it.
    I believe the dev view of balance is "If everyone is complaining, it must be ok!"
    Beyond the point of caring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FourRums View Post
    To OP:

    My mage gets destroyed by MM, sins, tempests, cleric's "rebuke". I am not necessarily in the top 5 dps every match but I am often times the top dps among mages. Balanced?
    Most get destroyed by the above said builds even being played by the average player, which is part of the problem. Good players on said builds make them seem even more overpowered. Mages just feel it more since they are the squishiest class unless built for surviving.

    I can beat most of the above said classes, but only in a pure healing build. Good assassins can outdamage my best attempts at hitting every single CD, boost heal, insta heal, Damage mitigation, and spamming healing on myself. Basically tit-for-tat damage > healing currently for the most part.

    Lately all I do is heal since there is a huge lack of healers, but sometimes I get to dps. I usually only switch to dps if we have other heals. Other then that you do give up a lot of survivability to do your damage, so expect to die quite a bit unless your WF is healing you.

    If you want to survive really good go pure chloro with a little in harb for the early tier defense and speed boost. Dom gives that extra range too if you aren't already building into it for dps. Natural Healing is your best friend. 1v1 I literally stop moving, spam natural healing, and wait for my insta heals to proc, then jump away hitting my insta heals, shoot out a withering vine or ruin, then repeat. It actually beats a lot of people as they slowly die. Damage is pretty crazy right now so its a method. If facing a rogue (good chance right?), spin while healing so they have a hard time hitting your backside-it saves you hp vs. certain rogue builds. I'ts also probably pretty annoying to them when they expect you to drop and you just keep going plus you won't show your back to them.

    Harb is also really good for surviving, but people playing mages I think have a hard time getting used to the "up in your face" mentality, plus chasing people around. You will get a better appreciation for the good warriors who you can't shake trying to melee if you have never done so before as a mage. Once you are used to it, though, its got some great survivability skills. It won't dps like a pure dps build, however. Phantom Blades is great to keep your distance and get insta procs and dps. Use dom 5 points for extra distance and go to town. Mix with ele or pyro for the high cast damaging abilities that you insta proc.

    As a side note I've topped dps charts as healer, but that's because I survived longer then anyone else and my damage output was constant. Top damage is subjective. In the above described builds once you get good I"m usually top or near top damage taken since you get marked a lot and when you know what to hit you survive a long time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrastion View Post
    I was going to state that they, by definition, described what OP was but you beat me to it. I"m curious what they think the definition of balance is....I think there is a quote by Majorin that describes pvp warrior balance. Accept it.
    Oh my goodness, please don't take anything Majorin says seriously.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misun View Post
    Oh my goodness, please don't take anything Majorin says seriously.
    Haha I don't. During the height of warrior's being overpowered he was the only person probably saying they need buffed. He had an argument for everything. I came to two conclusions: 1) He is the best troll and suckered everyone or 2) The worst warrior to ever play Rift.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    Maybe it's not really everybody. Not everybody on the forum agrees and the forum itself is a minority, and a minority with an opinion that may or may not be accurate or reflect those with a better data viewpoint than us.
    Dude, you're serious? I think part of the uproar with warriors is that they lived in a state of OP'ness for so long that they are having a hard time coming to terms with it. I'm not flaming you, and I think you're a smart guy, but pvp rogues are in a state of OP'ness. Like warriors of old, lots of pretty bad rogues have come out of the woodwork to get in on the OP'ness and tend to dilute what rogues are capable of. But a semi-good rogue is gonna have advantages in a wf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrastion View Post
    Haha I don't. During the height of warrior's being overpowered he was the only person probably saying they need buffed. He had an argument for everything. I came to two conclusions: 1) He is the best troll and suckered everyone or 2) The worst warrior to ever play Rift.
    Judging by how it was in Warhammer...I'm going with #2
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    I play MM+NB, sometimes MM+AS. MM is strong, but not OP. I unloaded all my cooldowns into VK/Tempest who eventually beat me 1v1. This shouldn't be happening. Warrior isn't supposed to beat MM at MM's own game (range). It feels like tank builds have too much survivability and this needs to be looked at. Also there is a problem with Riftstalker (secondary soul) rogues having too many gap closers, large HP pool, absorbs, and doing large amounts of damage.
    Last edited by Lothi; 12-03-2012 at 12:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothi View Post
    I play MM+NB, sometimes MM+AS. MM is strong, but not OP. I unloaded all my cooldowns into VK/Tempest who eventually beat me 1v1. This shouldn't be happening. Warrior isn't supposed to beat MM at MM's own game (range). It feels like tank builds have too much survivability and this needs to be looked at. Also there is a problem with Riftstalker (secondary soul) rogues having too many gap closers, large HP pool, absorbs, and doing large amounts of damage.
    Um, perhaps the problem with vk isn't their survivability but their dmg. And yes they are tough to take down 1v1 with their absorbs available, but they are hardly WF dominators. Theor is no shame in dying to a vk 1v1. They are so easy for a MM to avoid I don't see what the issue is.

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