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Thread: Next on the docket: Nerf Marksman(more respectful and constructive ver)

  1. #1
    Plane Touched Shyessa's Avatar
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    Default Next on the docket: Nerf Marksman(more respectful and constructive ver)

    This is a more respectful and constructive version from the original post which, I think, is mistakenly closed by mod because I did't see anything nonconstructive from Kyera. Please go on and keep it beloved by Rift moderator as much as possible.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Kyera's Avatar
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    I think my reputation precedes me.

    Repeating my last post in that thread:

    For further discussion, here's a gallery of random MM-related stuffs from the past few nights (and the odd screenshot from 1.11 release weekend). Sorry if there are duplicates -- I may have re-uploaded things.

    Worth noting:
    a) I'm not running the highest potential dps MM spec.
    b) For most of these, I'm not in full P50 -- was full Criterion (old P8/P40), but w/ P50 weapons. I actually just got around to 4pc Pathfinder tonight.
    c) The leaderboard shots are a pseudo-random sampling -- some involve healer heavy warfronts, some don't. These aren't best or worst performance grabs, either. Just the times where I remembered to hit Print Screen before hitting Leave Warfront.
    d) The ACT parses are generally for the entire packet of warfronts (usually about 20) for a given night. They include numbers from times I was playing Bard, or Assassin, or a janky new spec I'm ****ing around with on paper. The MM numbers are nearly always from 44 MM/22 BD.
    e) The biggest hits are often on low/no-valor targets (as is the one screenshot w/ a combat log). Ballpark one-GCD max burst is in the 4k-5k range on a reasonably geared target without big physdam mitigation (armor, % dmg reduction) via DES -> ES, with a larger potential rotation of DES -> Strafe -> ES -> RFS -> ES which generally drops anything that doesn't get huge heals by the time the first ES drops. Softer targets or clutch CC from my duo partner often means I can drop targets faster than this -- it's not uncommon for him to call a silence and for me to swap to the target and DES -> ES or even ES -> DES -> ES someone down before it ends.
    f) You'll notice that in some of the WF screens I have a billion points of damage taken/healing received, and in others I have a minimal amount. In most warfronts, I tend to get this performance with a low amount of damage taken/healing received, but owing to the nature of this BG warfront and the escapability of the spec I've spent more time than I normally like wading in to draw fire and/or to AoE people to prevent pumpkin pickups. In the hands of a really good MM, expect this thing to take minimal damage by virtue of the fact that Marksman can now play entirely mobile.

    tl;dr: spec is ******* ridiculous w/ the puri nerfs, but it was def a necessity before them.

    All this being said, I notice there are a lot of MMs out there that can't deliver, but I don't think the spec should be untouched "just because" most people can't properly drop the big hit. I'm not going to take a Majorin-like stance re: MM burst and deny that it's a thing or that it only happens against PvE-geared targets -- I've eaten the same sort of burst rotation I've delivered at the hands of like three other MMs, and I'm always in PvP gear.
    Last edited by Kyera; 10-30-2012 at 06:17 PM.
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  3. #3
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    Sorry I have to spam links, I don't have a gallery, but the images are full size! I have very good MM shots but, I don't think it is exclusive or stand-out to the extreme.

    Some of my good MM games, I guess they are OP.

    http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...kkotax/mm1.jpg
    http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...kkotax/mm2.jpg
    http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...kkotax/mm3.jpg
    http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...kkotax/mm4.jpg
    http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...kkotax/mm5.jpg
    http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...kkotax/mm6.jpg
    http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...kkotax/mm7.jpg
    http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...kkotax/mm8.jpg
    http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...kkotax/mm9.jpg

    But I don't see how these screenshots prove much, I can make other results with the other toons. Aren't I still pretty much skinning the cat all the same?

    Sab games:

    http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...kotax/sab1.jpg
    http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...kotax/sab2.jpg
    http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...kotax/sab3.jpg
    http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...kotax/sab4.jpg
    http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...kotax/sab5.jpg

    But then again, even this is Bard (which is way more crazy when you consider they do this while being worthy support):

    http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...otax/bard1.jpg
    http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...tax/bard12.jpg
    http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...otax/bard3.jpg
    http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...otax/bard4.jpg


    Those are just the specs I have vested time and effort with in WFs. The more I worked on BD, despite its terrible gap closing ability, I was able to produce some decent results. NB blows now. Sin is just another BD story, I can do good but melee without gap closers is melee without gap closers. What's that leave, ranger and RS? Never been great pvp main souls anyway.

    But I see NB as needing tweaks and Sin and BD just struggle with what they always have (BD damage is very nice). I don't see why MM should be nerfed unless all those callings I listed should be nerfed. If anything the most impressive is the bard because it hangs with the DPS to an extent while actually being a team player to the max. But they all can get on the battlefield and perform. Just my thoughts on it, I really think for now the rogue calling is fine, just NB feels lacking compared to pre-1.11.
    Last edited by Violacea; 10-30-2012 at 06:58 PM.
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  4. #4
    Telaran
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    Signed,

    A concerned mage.


    Edit: No awesome steam upload screenshots of me getting melted by every MM under the sun, oh well.
    Last edited by Vroken; 10-30-2012 at 07:16 PM.

  5. #5
    Ascendant HannonHellbringer's Avatar
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    PvP is starting to come together, I like it a lot better now. I miss my warlord but honestly, I still have uses for it and though discharge no longer hits for stupid amounts of damage, in the right set up it can bring some great burst even with warlord. Now that I said that...

    Marksmen are a bit over the top but seeing how the other classes feel and seeing how warlord and the warrior class is being handled, I imagine MM will get brought back down to normal. Other than that I think it is in pretty good shape outside of a few things here and there and wishing warriors had a bit more options with champ.

    I pvped like crazy today even got rocked by Dakkota earlier while trying to figure out the changes lol. loads of fun.

  6. #6
    Ascendant LOveRH's Avatar
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    http://i48.tinypic.com/2nh40g6.png

    I know this game we were farming a little but there has been a lot of games where i have seen only rogues top KBS/dmg over all the other classes.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    Now that Puri and WL have been nerfed, MM is freaking ridiculous on a stick.
    Please nerf empowered shot.
    ~Quiescent

  8. #8
    Plane Touched Shyessa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    ... some good info ...
    Actually, many specs of all classes (not limited to rouge) can yield those results. Clearly, if we judge things based on WF screenshot none of any spec (including warrior) will ever get nerfed. I think we are talking about damage output per survivability/utility tradeoff.
    Last edited by Shyessa; 10-30-2012 at 07:53 PM.

  9. #9
    Ascendant Ajax1114's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaros View Post
    Now that Puri and WL have been nerfed, MM is freaking ridiculous on a stick.
    Please nerf empowered shot.
    Yeah empowered is the bad variable from what I can tell. The only thing that concerns me is having burst at all if empowered shot is nerfed too much, but I spose MM shouldn't have its cake (mass utility/consistent damage) and eat it too (crazy burst).
    Last edited by Ajax1114; 10-30-2012 at 08:02 PM.

  10. #10
    Rift Master Jaguarundi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post
    Yeah empowered is the bad variable from what I can tell. The only thing that concerns me is having burst at all if empowered shot is nerfed too much, but I spose MM shouldn't have its cake (mass utility/consistent damage) and eat it too (crazy burst).
    It is currently the only competitive ranged rogue spec, nerfing it would cause hugh issues in pve. We are already below mages an warriors there, no need to make it lower.

    PVP should not be a reason to destroy the only ranged build that is even close to warriors and mages in pve.
    Last edited by Jaguarundi; 10-30-2012 at 08:54 PM.

  11. #11
    Rift Master Jaguarundi's Avatar
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    Sorry it would not let me edit the last one.

    MM's have no burst damage we have no burn it type spells to cast. If you look at the warrior and mage crits we are way behind.

  12. #12
    Ascendant spaceboots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguarundi View Post
    MM's have no burst damage
    You have plenty, especially given your mobility, cc and range.
    Last edited by spaceboots; 10-30-2012 at 08:59 PM.

  13. #13
    Champion of Telara Mire's Avatar
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    reduce empower shot dmg in pvp only like how they **** over fulminate and cinderburst/inferno

  14. #14
    Rift Master Jaguarundi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaceboots View Post
    You have plenty, especially given your mobility, cc and range.
    Name one spell we have that when they say burn cds we can use non, reload is it. and that is not a burn it spell. Mages can crit for close to 12k so can warriors, I have not seen any rogues close to that in pve.

  15. #15
    Ascendant spaceboots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguarundi View Post
    in pve.
    You're in the pvp forums...

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