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Thread: Proposed fixes for Conquest

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple Harmil's Avatar
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    Default Proposed fixes for Conquest

    First off, people have decided on a winning team. That team is NF. They queue for NF in order to win. The people who don't care or are now, queue for the other two. This leads to the 2-hour pain fests that we see now.

    This is easily solved. Here's the way I'd code it, but you can do whatever you like to fix this:
    * Queue for whatever you like
    * If, when you queue, one team (X) is at or below 95% of any other team, you get a message, "team X needs recruits, you can [o] stay in your queue until they get them or [o] Queue for team X instead" where [o] are dialog buttons.

    That's it. You still get the choice and you never HAVE to be on a team you don't want to be on. Ever. It probably makes sense to only kick this logic in once one team has at least one full raid.

    OK, so that solves that problem. The next is the "it makes sense not to win".

    That's not as easy to fix, but it's not too hard, either.

    I would give players more of a buff when near an extractor, in a bell-curve fashion. If there's less than 4, the current buff is all they get. When there are 4-10 the buff ramps up until it reaches the point that 10 people can reasonably hold off an incoming 40. This makes it worth trying to leave some guards at each extractor taken and gain and hold ground. The strategy that predominates now is to take an extractor back as soon as the opponents leave and then follow them to the next one and kill them, but never win. With this change, however, a team trying to do this won't get and hold enough nodes to keep the marks rolling in.
    Harmil is:
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  2. #2
    Rift Chaser Nargauzius's Avatar
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    I don't think that will do anything. The way to fix it is to have a random queue set up to assign players based on the number of players on each team (so there's no randomly assigning one team too many players). Keeping your assigned team like now is also essential. There is absolutely no need to choose your team.

    Beyond that, I think simply lowering the kill count from 5k to 3k would go a long way toward preventing those insanely long matches. 3k is still a ton of kills.

    If none of that is possible (but it is - difficult to do does not mean impossible to do) what about preventing people from joining the team they queued for until the other two teams have the same number of players? It would most certainly help team balance. not as much as a random queue but still better than what we have now which is NF fielding a full team of 80 before Dom even reaches 50.

  3. #3
    Ascendant ilex011's Avatar
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    yep, the only way to fix this raid number mess is to have us put in random factions until full!

  4. #4
    Rift Disciple Ovdisaier's Avatar
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    I'd have to agree, a random queue is a must because with the option you suggested lots of people would not get into CQ bc they all seem to want to play NF instead of joining Dom or Oath although everyone by now must know that those 2 teams have inferior numbers so for the sake of fun for everyone it would be common sense to join any team but NF... Giving ppl the option to wait it out until Dom is up in numbers compared to NF, yeah well GL with that.
    I like the idea of a defense boost near extractors. As you said, reality is Oath/Dom do always recap but never actively attack/defend while NF often comes running in full force while Dom or Oath is still waiting for the uncapped extractor to tick down, resulting in a complete wipe, an uncapped extractor that NF takes back and no fun. Some people like to defend more than to push and I could see ppl wanting to defend rather than run into 2 raids of NF knowing you not only have inferior numbers but these numbers are not present or disperse at the first sight of an enemy...
    Also, I dunno which realm you all play, but the past couple days in EU realm the CQ matches were over really quick, often enough before even the bosses spawn and that happens after 15-20min? NF provides quite the service atm, my only consolation is that they don't get much prestige/favor-wise bc Oath and Dom just totally avoid them instead of feeding them their deaths aswell along with all the extractors on the map <.< But there's not much actual pvp going on

  5. #5
    Shadowlander
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    Default Random queues won't fix the design flaws

    Random queues will obviously make teams nearly balanced, in terms of number of players per team and the skill of those players. So why haven't they implemented it? My conjecture is that the pvp team at Trion realizes that what they've created is terribly flawed, and a random queue just worsens the problem.

    Here's the issue: CQ only ends quickly when there is a significant imbalance in team strength. Logically, given 3 equal teams there is barely any chance that one team can reach 66%. Winning means one team must hold 12 extractors, while the other 2 teams combined can only have 6 total. Lets say each team has 60 players. The winning team will have 60/12 = 5 players per extractor, while the losing teams have 120/6 = 20 players per extractor. Essentially, the winning team needs to approach 4 times the effective strength/ability/strategic planning/etc. to win. This isn`t impossible, but it can`t really occur without some horrible mistakes by the other 2 teams, or large numbers of players just giving up so it will end. Random queues will lead to balanced teams which inevitably leads to stalemates.

    Allowing people to pick a team causes teams to be imbalanced. That`s why we see matches that end in under 10 mins late at night when one team fills up and the others are nearly empty. It`s why matches in the morning, afternoon and late evenings on weekdays typically are a reasonable length; one team is slightly stronger in terms of raw numbers and eventually gains the upper hand. CQ during primetime hours can drag on forever because so many people are playing that the teams are fairly close to being evenly balanced. So right now we have occasional matches that last several hours. Random queuing will ensure all matches are very long and nobody seems to want that.

    The real solution is to make the victory condition a cumulative score of some kind like a WF, rather than just a snapshot.

    TLDR; random queue = balanced teams = stalemate

  6. #6
    Rift Master Jaguarundi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ovdisaier View Post
    I'd have to agree, a random queue is a must because with the option you suggested lots of people would not get into CQ bc they all seem to want to play NF instead of joining Dom or Oath although everyone by now must know that those 2 teams have inferior numbers so for the sake of fun for everyone it would be common sense to join any team but NF... Giving ppl the option to wait it out until Dom is up in numbers compared to NF, yeah well GL with that.
    I like the idea of a defense boost near extractors. As you said, reality is Oath/Dom do always recap but never actively attack/defend while NF often comes running in full force while Dom or Oath is still waiting for the uncapped extractor to tick down, resulting in a complete wipe, an uncapped extractor that NF takes back and no fun. Some people like to defend more than to push and I could see ppl wanting to defend rather than run into 2 raids of NF knowing you not only have inferior numbers but these numbers are not present or disperse at the first sight of an enemy...
    Also, I dunno which realm you all play, but the past couple days in EU realm the CQ matches were over really quick, often enough before even the bosses spawn and that happens after 15-20min? NF provides quite the service atm, my only consolation is that they don't get much prestige/favor-wise bc Oath and Dom just totally avoid them instead of feeding them their deaths aswell along with all the extractors on the map <.< But there's not much actual pvp going on
    I have to say I am not found of the random queue. Last night I was in a cq, the power outages in the eastern US probably had a lot to do with who was on the team, I was on NF 6 people complaining about how long it was taking and we just want to win, another 5 or 6 that actually went to do the mini's and were complaining about no one joining them. Most of them left the team before it was over as they were not happy as all they wanted was their marks and ISS. For those of us that dont need marks or ISS there is no benifit to mini's (outside of letting a good team that dosent do them catch on up extractors if they are behin) outside of losing the game for you, this has always been oaths downfall even in games they were winning. They all stop for the mini's. If you make it random, you will just have a lot of people upset depending on what mindset they have.

  7. #7
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    the part i find funny about this is:

    People come and complain about how long conquest lasts blah blah and winning teams and all. But every conquest i have been in, the teams still fight. If you dont like a group rolling you over and over and over.... how about not giving them that satisfaction. Even when one side is trashing everyone... the other sides are still trying to push the PVE objective.

    First ill say, if you dont want to try to kill each other, dont queue for a PVP feature. I think everyone should just try to maul each other as huge groups.

    Second, If you find yourself not liking conquest, or thinking it is too long... Leave!

    Third, if you want to push the PVE objective, just let the other team have it. You keep fighting back, itll make it go toward the 5k kill timer.

    So this gives 2 options if you dont like getting rolled/rolling for hours: 1) join but not really fight or 2) get your group to actively look for the other groups to fight to drive the kill timer.

    yes 3k would be better, but at the end of the day, if you want 30 min PVE ISS farm... go back to world events.

  8. #8
    Rift Disciple Ovdisaier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dkjester View Post
    the part i find funny about this is:

    People come and complain about how long conquest lasts blah blah and winning teams and all. [...]

    First ill say, if you dont want to try to kill each other, dont queue for a PVP feature. I think everyone should just try to maul each other as huge groups.

    Second, If you find yourself not liking conquest, or thinking it is too long... Leave!

    Third, if you want to push the PVE objective, just let the other team have it. You keep fighting back, itll make it go toward the 5k kill timer.

    So this gives 2 options if you dont like getting rolled/rolling for hours: 1) join but not really fight or 2) get your group to actively look for the other groups to fight to drive the kill timer.

    yes 3k would be better, but at the end of the day, if you want 30 min PVE ISS farm... go back to world events.
    That's not a smart suggestion. I think people are complaining and post suggestions here and discuss because they do care. People who do not care about conquest are the sitters imo, I doubt you will find them here exchanging ideas.
    Whatever features have been changed since launch bc of players' input were never about not liking rift or not liking a class or not liking a skill and so on, we all like it fine but some things just need tweaking and if you have been around long enough you should know that new features - and I consider CQ new - sometimes take time to reach a system that does not favor only a small portion of the players but turns out to be fun for everyone.
    Anyone still remember when Flamespear had no cd?? The flamefest was never about not liking flamespear or not liking warfronts or warriors in warfronts or riftblades in warfronts, it was about a mechanic that was beneficial to some and a huge pain in the azz for everyone else. And we all see that the change was not the end of everything and their mom.

    Also I guess people would be happy if they could kill each other in CQ, emphasis on EACH_OTHER, but there is not much pvp going on in CQ bc currently one team just farms the others not because of skill, teamplay or organization but because of sheer numbers. If the numbers arent balanced you can't encourage people to fight back, CQ starts and 1/3 stays in camp and waits the 10mins until the idol phase starts... People in my guild always join NF even if they have to wait 10-20min in queue bc and I quote "I just run with the zerg" lulz, where is that about PVP if you just roll with the masses... Take away the imbalance, make the teams equal, then maybe finally the team that wants it most will win. Bc if the match drags on, lots of ppl will leave, eventually preventing one team to actively guard their extractors :P
    Recently someone suggested ingame to remove the extractors and just port all teams into the eye, killfest until last man standing XD
    Or just give us siege warfaaaare!
    Btw, I've never seen a match end bc of the killmeter...

  9. #9
    Ascendant Charlice's Avatar
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    I think they should get rid of the CQ bonus. Failing that, there needs to be a better way to get rid of afk'rs.

    If teams can't or won't be made random, there needs to be players added to all teams evenly. At the moment it's not so uncommon to zone in with not even a full raid on Dom or Oath, and NF already be at 27% or close. All that happens then is players give up before the match has really started.

    I still find it fun.... sometimes, I still zone in and hope that I'll catch a team that actually wants/tries to win.
    Mostly though you get the players just zoning in to keep their CQ bonus in check. They'll be the ones whining the loudest in raid chat, or fishing.

    The problem isn't with CQ itself IMO, it's with the people that play it.
    Maybe randomising faction, and keeping numbers even, will fix it.


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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlice View Post
    The problem isn't with CQ itself IMO, it's with the people that play it.
    Maybe randomising faction, and keeping numbers even, will fix it.
    Exactly right. The problem is the players and Trion can only do so much in hopes to corral the players into doing what they intend. Here is the problem... people join CQ that have NO want to fight another player. THey sneak around to steal extractors and want it to end so they can run around and tag mobs for Marks/ISSes. These players wants a 15 minute match so they farm and farm fast. The other side of the player base sees CQ as a long time grind for Favor/Prestige. They are driven to fight and pk, cause after all they want to get better gear to PK people more. Problem is with the two different types of people you get 1 faction that avoids PVPing, 1 that ONLY wants to do that and one that is kind of in the middle.

    When a team has half people who wanna fight and half that dont, that group gets rolled by the group that wants to PVP. THe group that tries to avoid killing entirely, gets rolled by pvp group while trying to PVE through CQ. This leads to a long match cause there are those wanting to get to the tag and run phase without fighting. When everyone fought each other, the matches werent as long as they are now with the 5k kills. Now with people avoiding fighting, the 5k kills takes forever, and the PVE extractor stealing almost never ends the match till the "farm favor" group finally gives up cause the other sides arent fighting as much.

    That is the underlying problem... There are those that want a quick farm Mark/ISS round and others that want to PVP.

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple Ovdisaier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dkjester View Post
    Exactly right. The problem is the players and Trion can only do so much in hopes to corral the players into doing what they intend. Here is the problem... people join CQ that have NO want to fight another player. THey sneak around to steal extractors and want it to end so they can run around and tag mobs for Marks/ISSes. These players wants a 15 minute match so they farm and farm fast. The other side of the player base sees CQ as a long time grind for Favor/Prestige. They are driven to fight and pk, cause after all they want to get better gear to PK people more. Problem is with the two different types of people you get 1 faction that avoids PVPing, 1 that ONLY wants to do that and one that is kind of in the middle.

    When a team has half people who wanna fight and half that dont, that group gets rolled by the group that wants to PVP. THe group that tries to avoid killing entirely, gets rolled by pvp group while trying to PVE through CQ. This leads to a long match cause there are those wanting to get to the tag and run phase without fighting. When everyone fought each other, the matches werent as long as they are now with the 5k kills. Now with people avoiding fighting, the 5k kills takes forever, and the PVE extractor stealing almost never ends the match till the "farm favor" group finally gives up cause the other sides arent fighting as much.

    That is the underlying problem... There are those that want a quick farm Mark/ISS round and others that want to PVP.
    Something has to change definetly. I just joined NF team only bc I had the veteran vials on and wanted to make the most of it. When I was ported in, NF had 55% and ppl in the raid were complaining that the match was over already. 90 kills had been "accomplished". So I suggest what any helpful person would "Just join Dominion next time!" and get called an idiot. I guess I didn't understand that person's real issue because he just won cq as he prolly did every hour and he is still complaining...
    As for the dynamic imo it's NF that's farming marks because seriously, the match ends and just when the Lich King boss in Zareph dies the message appears that announces the 3 minibosses so you can imagine how fast that match was over *yawn what fun we had in... 8min
    Frankly, I could do with some 2 hour matches right about now...

  12. #12
    Telaran
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    Obligatory: It has been like this for months on the seastone cluster.

  13. #13
    Rift Disciple Harmil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nargauzius View Post
    I don't think that will do anything. The way to fix it is to have a random queue set up to assign players based on the number of players on each team
    1) That's the definition of not-random.

    2) Can you explain how that results in any difference in outcome from what I described EXCEPT for people being upset about not being able to choose? In fact your idea and mine are identical, except for the fact that given my suggestion players FEEL that they have a choice.
    Harmil is:
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  14. #14
    Rift Chaser Nargauzius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harmil View Post
    1) That's the definition of not-random.

    2) Can you explain how that results in any difference in outcome from what I described EXCEPT for people being upset about not being able to choose? In fact your idea and mine are identical, except for the fact that given my suggestion players FEEL that they have a choice.
    Simple. You don't choose your team, the game chooses it. You never know which team you will be on, hence it's random. You click the Join button, it assigns you a team based on which team needs players, and you go and play a fairly even Conquest match.

    It would never work if it was truly random because keeping team numbers even is essential and a truly random system has a chance of putting too many on one team. One of CQ's biggest problems right now - if not the biggest - is the fact that one team can have an entire raid more than the other teams, and maybe more.

    It already sort of does this for warfronts. There's a chance you are merced because the game works to keep teams even.

    You know I wouldn't be opposed to not even being allowed to queue for a particular team until all three teams have the same number of players (or almost the same, I don't have examples in mind right now but maybe + or - 5 players). The important thing is the join box would be greyed out entirely for all but the team with the least players. That's more complicated a solution though because team numbers would constantly change and boxes will constantly go grey and become available. It's not the ideal solution.
    Last edited by Nargauzius; 11-02-2012 at 09:22 PM.

  15. #15
    Rift Disciple Harmil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nargauzius View Post
    Simple. You don't choose your team, the game chooses it.
    That's not "random" that's "selected for you".

    Also, you never answered my question: how are the two different in effect?

    Once again, what I proposed:

    1. You select a team
    2. The game lets you in if the teams are roughly balanced or if there are fewer than some threshold number of players (e.g. less than one full raid on the largest team)
    3. Once the teams get more than 5% away from each other, you get a popup that says, "you can join X team or queue" where X team is whoever has the least players.

    It's that easy. You get the same result either way, all teams are equal. Problem solved. But, with MY proposal, no one ever gets forced onto a team they didn't actively select (either up front or because they didn't want to get queued).
    Last edited by Harmil; 11-03-2012 at 04:56 PM.
    Harmil is:
    Mev - 60 Mage (Archon, Harbalist, Chloro) Faeblight
    Pso - 50 Rogue Faeblight
    <Ascended of Corthana>
    Gaming blog: http://ajsgaming.blogspot.com/

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