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Thread: Dumbing down the game

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default Dumbing down the game

    Around a year ago, I bought rift and been subscribed ever since because the pvp of rift reminded me of the good 'ol pre-tbc pvp. However, it has been going to a wrong direction for a quite time, and now they just ruined it. At least for me.

    Removing skills that are plain overpowered, such as "Lingering Wounds" was a good call. (fyi: -50% healing for 15 seconds, non dispellable and applies from every crit, if you've got the talent from middle of the tree.) However, along with this change, Trion decided to remove or significantly nerf (I'd just say, remove, for 10% healing reduction = useless) all other healing reductions as well. This means that there is absolutely no solid way to kill a healer, in other words, there's no smart way to kill a healer anymore. One might say "l2p and learn to use CC", however, it's not a viable option either in Rift, because the diminishing returns have always been ridiculous. (fyi: You snare or silence a few times, the victim becomes immune for ALL CC for a quite long time, which is like 10 seconds I'd say.) and using interrupts to interrupt heals isn't simply enough, because almost all healing trees have very powerful instant heals with nearly no mana cost or cooldown.

    So, they left with one way to kill a healer anymore, and I'd definite it as the "dumb way". Just full nuke it, and hope for the best. However, with the healing so powerful compared to damage healers take, it's pointless to try to kill a healer alone (especially if it's P50).

    Some might also say, that "WAIT TILL EXPANSION, IT WILL BRING BALANCE" - will it also bring 50% or more healing reduction back, or fix the CC that way it's a viable option to use against healers? I highly doubt. The only thing it'll most likely do, is give a few silly new souls, increase the numbers you see when you damage or heal, or check your healthbar, and it will also give a few silly skills. The problem still remains, there's only one way to kill a healer, and it's the way people used to call "the dumb way to kill a healer".

    However, there is a very simple solution to all of this.
    Nerf damage
    Nerf heals (way more compared to damage)
    Add more skills that reduce healing, but make 'em all dispellable.
    Reduce the effect of DR
    = The game becomes more skill based than gear based.

    Oh, and whoever comes to this thread and tells me to think about PVE:ers - well, I won't.
    Honestly, I don't give a **** about pve:ers, and that's why I'm posting this in PvP because I believe this is pretty much a pvp-only issue. PvP is the only thing I'm playing rift, and if they're doing their very best to get rid of it - well, I won't like it.

  2. #2
    Champion Crisson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaines View Post

    Oh, and whoever comes to this thread and tells me to think about PVE:ers - well, I won't.
    Honestly, I don't give a **** about pve:ers, and that's why I'm posting this in PvP because I believe this is pretty much a pvp-only issue. PvP is the only thing I'm playing rift, and if they're doing their very best to get rid of it - well, I won't like it.
    You had me your entire speech until you decided to puke this piece on your last paragraph. So far Trion showed they have a hard time balancing things for pvp without messing up for pve (riftstalker was a good example!). And they end up making it an even worse experience for pvp.

    Maybe if they implement all those changes only for the pvp servers it would be good but let's be honest and stop living in denial: the majority of the so called pvpers get bored of pure pvp servers and move to pve servers.

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    You can also just drain mana. Good ol mages have had their mana drain capabilities increased very much There are 2 very good mana draining abilities on reasonable cooldowns as well as mana wrench and mass betrayal which is a solid AoE as well as an energy/mana drain. Rogues have some kind of drain, though I'm not sure how good it really is in PVP. Other classes are s*** outa luck I think.

    Lingering wounds was so absurdly OP I can't believe it didn't get nerfed in under two weeks, so I'm glad that's gone. But like you, I also enjoyed the strategy of using a healing reduction at the right time to kill a key DPS or healer. It seems now the only strategic option is to drain the crap out of cleric healers.


    As far as CC's, there was a post about some changes to the PVP system. I'm pretty sure it was for SL, although maybe it was for 1.11 and the changes are already in place. But the diminishing returns system on CC will change such that short term CC abilities don't give long 10-15 second immunity once they break and the immunity will instead be proportional to original CC length. So I think that will help a little bit by making it easier to disrupt other heals while focusing down a target.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaines View Post
    So, they left with one way to kill a healer anymore, and I'd definite it as the "dumb way". Just full nuke it, and hope for the best. However, with the healing so powerful compared to damage healers take, it's pointless to try to kill a healer alone (especially if it's P50).
    I'll agree with the healing debuff being a little "overpowered", but necessary to have pre-1.11. But, healing is technically reduced by 40% in PvP anyway (soon to include shields too), so it's almost as if the healing debuff is already there. There are some abilities that are a little stronger than "intended" so that certainly does not help things.

    Also, focus fire has been like the staple way of killing anything in mmorpg-based PvP. Basically just main assist -> everyone else sync your kaboom -> next target, etc.

    Some might also say, that "WAIT TILL EXPANSION, IT WILL BRING BALANCE" - will it also bring 50% or more healing reduction back, or fix the CC that way it's a viable option to use against healers? I highly doubt. The only thing it'll most likely do, is give a few silly new souls, increase the numbers you see when you damage or heal, or check your healthbar, and it will also give a few silly skills. The problem still remains, there's only one way to kill a healer, and it's the way people used to call "the dumb way to kill a healer".
    A lot of people dislike CC because it removes control of their character, yes I know that's the point of CC, but still, some people just do not like that aspect regardless.

    However, there is a very simple solution to all of this.
    Nerf damage
    Nerf heals (way more compared to damage)
    Add more skills that reduce healing, but make 'em all dispellable.
    Reduce the effect of DR
    = The game becomes more skill based than gear based.
    Nerfing damage and heals doesn't necessarily make things more "skill" (lol) based, but I will give you that the other things you listed can.
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    Ascendant Hartzekar's Avatar
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    Healing has been globally reduced in PvP. Now everyone has a heal debuff on them!
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    First off: Healers are very killable currently. The only ones that aren't are Purifiers. They're the outlier, Puri needs a nerf.

    But, anyway, I do agree. I was thinking about the functionality of healing debuffs, and I wish they did something more like ... "Reduces the next 2-3 heals applied to your target by ~100%. No Global Cooldown. Does not apply to Heal Over Time effects that were on the target prior to activation. Cleansable."

    Heal debuffs have always been really fire-and-forget in Rift (give that most of them are passive) so it'd be nice to see a little elevated gameplay. With a mechanic like this, it gives the DPS access to a very powerful tool to take out healers, but it needs to be properly timed with burst, as it won't last long.
    The numbers could be tweaked anywhere from what I've listed to 50% debuff on the next 5 or 10, as long as it remains wholly cleansable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaines View Post
    they took away the only heal debuff some other guy had, and i'm fine with that. it was clearly OP because it wasnt my heal debuff and i might be the target of it.

    but then they also nerfed my three heal debuffs. unlike the clearly OP other guy and his only heal debuff, i still have my three heal debuffs, but now they're nerfed.

    i has a sad
    there, fixed it for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

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    Ascendant Jeffreys's Avatar
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    The original post complains about CC

    From the patch notes:
    * Crowd control effects like stuns, roots, etc. are subject to diminishing returns when used against players in PvP. This diminishing returns system has been changed:
    - Old method: 1st effect has full duration, 2nd effect has reduced duration, 3rd effect is further reduced, etc. until target becomes fully immune. Then timeout occurs, and the whole thing resets.
    - New method: 1st effect has full duration, and when it ends, the target becomes immune for a period of time equal to that duration.
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  9. #9
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crisson View Post
    the majority of the so called pvpers get bored of pure pvp servers and move to pve servers.
    Sad but true.
    And the reason, why this happens? It's quite simple, I believe it has something to do with pvp being f'd in the A.

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeysUncle View Post
    Other classes are s*** outa luck I think.

    As far as CC's, there was a post about some changes to the PVP system. I'm pretty sure it was for SL, although maybe it was for 1.11 and the changes are already in place. But the diminishing returns system on CC will change such that short term CC abilities don't give long 10-15 second immunity once they break and the immunity will instead be proportional to original CC length. So I think that will help a little bit by making it easier to disrupt other heals while focusing down a target.
    Cleric has multiple skills that will regen their mana damn quick, in middle of combat anyway. constant mana drain works, but so far the only effective mana drain is mage only skill. What they should do, is make each class have some trees that specialize in a way or another to kill melee, caster or healer. The more possibilities to customize your build - the better, and the more balanced the game will be, due the fact to counter a spec, you're able to build a spec that counters it (which means, each spec should have some weaknesses. A hybrid spec has multiple weak-weaknesses.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Adastra View Post
    But, healing is technically reduced by 40% in PvP anyway

    Also, focus fire has been like the staple way of killing anything in mmorpg-based PvP. Basically just main assist -> everyone else sync your kaboom -> next target, etc.

    Nerfing damage and heals doesn't necessarily make things more "skill" (lol) based, but I will give you that the other things you listed can.
    It sure doesn't feel that way. From what I've seen, people aren't really dying in pvp as much as they used to. Especially healers. They're just not dying. Mage or cleric, doesn't matter.

    "focus fire" shouldn't be the only way to kill a healer. Currently it is, and I'm saying it shouldn't be.
    It shouldn't be that it takes an entire group of players to kill a single player.

    Well, I prefer small numbers, but maybe that's just me. anyway, the point is that you nerf the heals first, so you'd actually have to use single target heals if you want to keep a player alive (therefore spamming AOE healing would be waste of time and mana.), and a healer couldn't keep himself and the entire RAID alive, while he's being hit. Then, I understand the fact that if they now nerfed heals by, say, to half of what it currently is, damage would be WAY overpowered, and should be slightly nerfed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaros View Post
    First off: Healers are very killable currently. The only ones that aren't are Purifiers. They're the outlier, Puri needs a nerf.
    I don't think it's 'bout purifiers. I've seen mages as well, that are just healing and aren't dying. Perhaps there was a purifier backing them up.. Just perhaps.


    Anyway, Rift should have a lot of skills, that when timed correctly can actually "turn the table", such as healing reductions used to be, and CC should be (but most of the time, at the moment people will just 'immune' it.) - Healing reductions weren't overpowered, they were only good if they weren't noticed and dispelled. Lingering wounds was a whole different case, as it couldn't be dispelled.
    What I'm saying is, more skills that are very strong if used correctly, and aren't countered in a way or another.


    edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    there, fixed it for you.
    Last time I checked cleric used to have ONE healing reduction, which was removed. That however clearly wasn't your point.
    Clearly you didn't understand my point. I'd be perfectly fine with lingering wounds added back, as long as it could be dispelled.

    edit: fyi: my point was - healers are now overpowered because they removed healing reductions, and removed one smart way to take down a healer, leaving people with only ways that were called "dumb ways" to kill a healer.
    Last edited by Gaines; 10-23-2012 at 05:14 AM. Reason: reply

  10. #10
    Plane Touched Shyessa's Avatar
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    Unkillable healer/puri is fine if only he, himself, is unkillable. The problem is that not only himself is hard to kill but he make his friends hard to kill as he is too.

  11. #11
    Ascendant HannonHellbringer's Avatar
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    I still think its more of an issue that lvl 50 pvp is no longer the top tier, right now it is because we cannot progress, but it isn't because 10 new lvls are about to come. Think about it for a second, remember how the levels lower than 50 used to be when 50 was top tier? They were pretty much out of control with damage and healing. I was able to hit harder in the 30-39, and 40-49 bracket because I didn't need to worry about valor like in the 50 bracket. Right now they seem to be scaling the damage and healing for lvl 60 which is why it is high inboth damage and healing. Which is why warrior hae access to an ability that is crazy OP for now but MM's get something like it at lvl 60 or 61. Also, if you've been on the beta, the valor looks like it is going to be A LOT so the damage will take a dive at the lvl 60 bracket because of the valor changes.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the plan is to remove valor from the lvl 50 pvp gear and we will have to work our way up to the new gear. Damage in pvp from lvls 50-59 will be reduced and 60 it will be back to normal and gear is where you will get your mitigation from. This will make pvp gear VERY important and make PvE gear suicide.
    Last edited by HannonHellbringer; 10-23-2012 at 01:18 PM.

  12. #12
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    You say they've dumbed down the game while in fact what they did was made it very less possible for multiple specs to run around solo killing everything they run in to the majority of the time.

    In order to take down a healer you can't just pick an OP spec and have at it. You now need coordination with other team members.
    Since healers seems to be your main concern, I don't know why you refer to it as dumbing down the game.

    Are there still OP specs?
    Yeah ofcourse. 51 Inquisitor comes to mind first, but is it as horrible as NB/RS, Pyro-Chloro/Dom or RB/CH used to be pre 1.11? Hell no. That was dumbed down PVP and they've changed it for the better imo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cromyr View Post
    Are there still OP specs?
    Yeah ofcourse. 51 Inquisitor comes to mind first, but is it as horrible as NB/RS, Pyro-Chloro/Dom or RB/CH used to be pre 1.11? Hell no. That was dumbed down PVP and they've changed it for the better imo.
    Still can't wrap my head around the NB/RS complaints post-NB cooldown changes, outside of 1v1 situations.

    When the rogue changes first went in? Sure. Later on? Can't figure out how/why it was a tangible threat.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeysUncle View Post
    You can also just drain mana. Good ol mages have had their mana drain capabilities increased very much There are 2 very good mana draining abilities on reasonable cooldowns as well as mana wrench and mass betrayal which is a solid AoE as well as an energy/mana drain. Rogues have some kind of drain, though I'm not sure how good it really is in PVP. Other classes are s*** outa luck I think.
    Mana wrench is dead, not even worth being on a bar atm. The last cleric i used it on it was removing 84 mana per tick.....

    Transference and TI are both 30 second cooldowns, TI is dispellable, as is mass betrayal.

    Where is this increase again? Particularly considering clerics have some pretty good mana regen abilities now.

  15. #15
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andervin View Post
    nom nom tears nom nom
    People like you make me sick. I bet you didn't read a single thing I said. If you did, you didn't understand any of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cromyr View Post
    In order to take down a healer you can't just pick an OP spec and have at it. You now need coordination with other team members.
    How it should be:
    1. Healer keeps the group alive
    2. The group keeps the healer alive

    How it is:
    1. Healer keeps the group alive
    2. Healer keeps himself alive

    A healer should be very weak and easy to kill (I'm not saying, that very easy that they just keep dying all the time, but that easy you can easily kill a healer in 1v1 after the healer used it's cooldowns and panic buttons.) However, coordinating with team is something I approve, but all I'm saying is there should be a smart or few smart ways to take down a healer, that you can do by yourself, if you've got a spec capable of killing healers effectively. Currently, no spec is capable of killing healers effectively.

    edit: by having a spec capable of killing healers effectively, I'm not talking about "OP SPEC", I'm talking about a spec that has some healing reductions etc, but isn't capable of taking much damage or something. You get the point. Each "good" spec should have some weaknesses, as well as some specialties.
    Last edited by Gaines; 10-24-2012 at 05:09 AM.

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