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Thread: Define Real PvP!

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
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    Default Define Real PvP!

    Over the years (since 2000) I seen the term 'real PvP' used and thrown around loosely. To each, the definition varies in a lot of ways.

    Myself, I always considered 'real pvp' as being interactive and an effect to the rest of the game. Not rock/paper/scissor arenas or BG warm ups disguised as endgame pvp. As we all know and in some cases, only know... is the WoW model. Before WoW, there were unique RvR models such as Daoc, AO, SWG, etc.. Each bringing their own style of 'real pvp'. Now that WoW trained the rest of the new gen MMOs to think in a small box due to Blizzard's 10 million new MMO money spawns, oh how I miss the old skools. WAR was a recent feeble and surprising attempt, but many know that Mythic failed and digressed from their past Daoc success concerning a RvR model. Sure there is a zerg element to it....but small encounters are always around the corner for random and unpredictable pvp opportunities to show skills. These models bring it all to the pvp table. Progression, farm and skills as part of the game itself....and not a side show.

    Now that Rift seems to be trying to get away from the WoW mindset with CQ and experimenting, I myself would love to see more innovation, effect and interaction with the rest of the game. And not just train pve'rs into it with a trinket or two. I think Daoc's DF, AO's Tara raids, SWG Faction npc flagging, etc...are great examples of 'real pvp'. PvE'ers still have a choice to participate and at same time, benefit off other PvP'ers work....just like us pvp'ers have a choice to raid or not;) Goes both ways. And myself never had a problem taking over the likes of Dark Falls so my realm can pve it before getting ganked during turnnover My alts appreciated it! Now imagine caring pve types opening up pvp areas with fat loots or quests attached via boss kills? Haha they would never have it:P

    My 2 cents.

    Before all you wowheads go QQ over such BIG thoughts....define Real PvP please. If it's rock paper scissors in a box, then say so!

    Discuss.

  2. #2
    Ascendant spaceboots's Avatar
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    Griefing and politics.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaceboots View Post
    Griefing and politics.
    Haha and dont forget 'where gear matters':P

    When boxed premades roll pugs....is that not griefing in a sense? Serious question...not a troll shotout.
    Last edited by Hashashin; 10-04-2012 at 06:32 AM.

  4. #4
    Ascendant Aeonblade's Avatar
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    Real PvP to me just means PvP you WANT to do rather than they force you to do for an incentive you need to be able to compete.

    If I'm having fun and fighting other players not worried about getting that next piece of gear/bonus/whatever, it's real PvP, it's about the fight, not about farming gear.

    Not exactly sure what other players mean when they say it, I haven't really seen anyone else say it
    Leondria 60 P6x Mage

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    Ascendant Kyera's Avatar
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    DAoC was the pinnacle of faction-level, large-scope MMO PvP. The three faction dynamic was a key to its success, helped by player mentality of the era (for the realm!), the design of the frontier (suiting zerg warfare but easily accommodating solo play, stealth play, and 8v8) and a hands-off approach to balancing (as well as avoiding direct class-mirroring) which allowed the community to come up with its own, often server-specific group comps and tactics. Of course, DAoC's PvP wasn't really "PvP", which is why it was marketing as RvR.

    Given that I'm not a big fan of winner-take-all PvP or especially predatory griefing, I tend to shy away from the more "hardcore" PvP games (I do enjoy winning and making someone feel miserable, but not by stripping their progression). The only other MMOs I've had a strong interest in, PvP-wise, though I never played them to a "truly" PvP-competitive level are SWG and EVE, but those mainly center around guild-level dynamics and politics.

    Everything I've played for a sustained period (more than three months) since has felt a little "meh" to me. Warhammer fell flat because they a) strayed from their original vision/design under pressure from EA to hit a release target and b) had all of their "passionate" staff get replaced by people who implemented sweeping, frequent changes in response to tears. Rift lacked objectives and has a community that, in aggregate, won't PvP without a carrot to chase and will try to avoid conflict while working towards that carrot. SWTOR had **** for WPvP and population imbalances meant all I ever really played for my first two and a half months was Huttball, which was absolutely terrible (outside of premade vs. premade, which I can see theoretically being quite intense).

    For me, real PvP is done for e-peen waggling and bragging rights, either at the individual level, the group/guild level, or the faction-wide level, with "progression" or "advancement" being a nice-to-have thing that doesn't break the power curve in dramatic fashion. It's also about the dynamic nature of open world conflict, with its moderately unpredictable nature (who is out there? where should we roam? will I get jammed? will I get zerged? where will we hit an enemy? how do we react to their comp/the hit location/what **** we have up from the last fight in a hasty manner?) being a key driver for me -- this is why I tend to dislike the confined "warfront" or "arena" concepts, where you have a finely crafted map and you get to assess everything before the fight "starts". It's not spontaneous enough.
    Last edited by Kyera; 10-04-2012 at 06:53 AM.
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    Ascendant Meina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeonblade View Post
    Real PvP to me just means PvP you WANT to do rather than they force you to do for an incentive you need to be able to compete.

    If I'm having fun and fighting other players not worried about getting that next piece of gear/bonus/whatever, it's real PvP, it's about the fight, not about farming gear.

    Not exactly sure what other players mean when they say it, I haven't really seen anyone else say it
    ^^ This ^^

    "Real" PvP, to me, is not about farming. It's PvP'ing for the enjoyment of PvP.

    Once rewards are introduced to a PvP system, the entire mindset changes. It becomes more about "How can I maximize my gains" than it does about having fun, playing to win and / or playing as a team.

    Not that this holds true for everyone, but it definitely seems to be the prevailing attitude.
    A friend will calm you down when you're angry, but a best friend will skip along beside you with a baseball bat singing "Someone's gonna get it!"

  7. #7
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    When you beat your wife or GF, you're real PVPer.
    Last edited by June; 10-04-2012 at 08:40 AM.

  8. #8
    Ascendant Ajax1114's Avatar
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    "Real" PvP to me is something pretty simple: Spontaneous fighting and competition between players where ingenuity, skill, and teamwork are the deciding factors.

    Any game where "gear" or "items" are so significant that they can undermine the aforementioned factors is doing it wrong, in my book. Yes, I realize what I subscribed to in buying this game. I didn't buy it because the PvP looked awesome.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyera View Post
    DAoC was the pinnacle of faction-level, large-scope MMO PvP. The three faction dynamic was a key to its success, helped by player mentality of the era (for the realm!), the design of the frontier (suiting zerg warfare but easily accommodating solo play, stealth play, and 8v8) and a hands-off approach to balancing (as well as avoiding direct class-mirroring) which allowed the community to come up with its own, often server-specific group comps and tactics. Of course, DAoC's PvP wasn't really "PvP", which is why it was marketing as RvR.

    Given that I'm not a big fan of winner-take-all PvP or especially predatory griefing, I tend to shy away from the more "hardcore" PvP games (I do enjoy winning and making someone feel miserable, but not by stripping their progression). The only other MMOs I've had a strong interest in, PvP-wise, though I never played them to a "truly" PvP-competitive level are SWG and EVE, but those mainly center around guild-level dynamics and politics.

    Everything I've played for a sustained period (more than three months) since has felt a little "meh" to me. Warhammer fell flat because they a) strayed from their original vision/design under pressure from EA to hit a release target and b) had all of their "passionate" staff get replaced by people who implemented sweeping, frequent changes in response to tears. Rift lacked objectives and has a community that, in aggregate, won't PvP without a carrot to chase and will try to avoid conflict while working towards that carrot. SWTOR had **** for WPvP and population imbalances meant all I ever really played for my first two and a half months was Huttball, which was absolutely terrible (outside of premade vs. premade, which I can see theoretically being quite intense).

    For me, real PvP is done for e-peen waggling and bragging rights, either at the individual level, the group/guild level, or the faction-wide level, with "progression" or "advancement" being a nice-to-have thing that doesn't break the power curve in dramatic fashion. It's also about the dynamic nature of open world conflict, with its moderately unpredictable nature (who is out there? where should we roam? will I get jammed? will I get zerged? where will we hit an enemy? how do we react to their comp/the hit location/what **** we have up from the last fight in a hasty manner?) being a key driver for me -- this is why I tend to dislike the confined "warfront" or "arena" concepts, where you have a finely crafted map and you get to assess everything before the fight "starts". It's not spontaneous enough.
    Good read ^^.

  10. #10
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaceboots View Post
    Griefing and politics.
    www.eveonline.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  11. #11
    Soulwalker Ashivautzo's Avatar
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    I agree op.... I think rift would really benefit from a swg style pvp system.... I have suggested such a system in other posts, but of course pvers shot down any focus on pvp coz they dont care for pvp.... The beauty of swg pvp, while outdated was the fact that there wasnt a gear disparity, gear was made by the players and there was no difference between pve/pvp gear.... As well there was a real point to pvp in swg, its rewards was factional control of territory as well just factional fluff items.... While swg had a small community/sub base pvp was always happening everywhere all the time in large scale battles as well the gcw introduced the regular city invasions which also was an interest to pvers coz they could get involved and help control areas without engaging in pvp... Great fun
    Oh dont forget the bounty system which was so much fun
    Last edited by Ashivautzo; 10-04-2012 at 09:40 AM.

  12. #12
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    close-quarters deathmatch PvP (ideally with geometry for LoS and height advantage) between two carefully formed teams, a test of preparation, teamwork, and execution. Nothing more, nothing less.
    10 characters

  13. #13
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    I'd say it matters a lot on the genre for me. The type of game I play sets the expectations that I have in general for it. MMO(RPG) is more about co-op play for me than competitive play, but whereas if I play a FPS or RTS, then I go in with PvP in mind.

    But like others have said, real PvP is something that people do to have fun and shouldn't feel forced, everyone has their preference (small vs. large scale, TDM vs. Objective, etc).
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  15. #15
    Rift Master Merridwyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by June View Post
    When you beat your wife or GF, you're real PVPer.
    Is that supposed to be amusing?

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