+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Small steps for a fairer PvP/PvE relationship

  1. #1
    General of Telara
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    839

    Default Small steps for a fairer PvP/PvE relationship

    There are many posts talking about all these changes that could and should be done and debates about balance between PvE and PvP. I'm not going to touch on them, they all involve a very tricky fine line to balance and take time.

    This post is about something much simpler which can be addressed - Planar Attunements and xp gain

    I am one of the more minority type players who does both PvE and PvP at the higher end of the spectrum and one thing I still cannot comprehend is the disparity between PvE xp and PvP.

    As an exclusive PvEr you need to focus on the 6 PA trees, T1 and T2 (maybe dabbling in PvP to decrease Breakfree), as a PvPer you need all those trees plus the PvP one. So already the PvPer needs more, and yet, the ability to gain PA via PvE compared to PvP is insane.

    As an example, in 1.7 I used to do some PA farming, and, not including CHronicles which for a while were a way of getting crazy PA, with an xp potion on I could gain 12 PA in two hours, others who were better could get more.
    Now, I know this is an extreme example because this was specific farming, but even so, it's crazy high amounts.

    As a PvPer, when I gain a whole Prestige lvl, I gained 1 PA....1. Do you know how long 67K prestige takes? Assuming a Prestige potion, bonus weekend and winning more than I lose, I MIGHT be able gain an entire lvl in 2 hours. Worse, come r40, I no longer get Prestige and so even that tiny 'bonus' PA no longer is available.

    Added to this, I get only 1 daily to gain 250k xp, so if for whatever reason I miss out on it, I don't get the xp as it does not carry over, worse, it is a specific WF so can really suck (I'm talking to you Whitefall Steppes)

    Finally, the actual xp gained in a WF is notably less than you get from a Dungeon run (which takes around 20 mins) and that's assuming you are on the winning side, on the losing side its worse and if thrashed then you get near nothing.

    So, after whining about the issues I just wanted to offer up some suggestions:

    1) Allow a PA lvl to be gained at a set Prestige gain (for example, 1 per 20k - which without a potion even on bonus weekend can still take over an hour)

    2) At max rank allow Prestige to continue to be gained, each time the set number is achieved, a PA is gained and starts again

    3) Change the way the daily WF works. Change it to the same way the LFG tool works. So each day you gain a daily, it can store up to 7, that way if during the week you can't get on you don't lose out on 250k. Also, allow it simply to be Random rather than a specific WF. So, you click Join WF, it puts you in any of them, if you win you get the daily reward and your allotment goes down by 1, if you lose you just try again (like the DUngeon LFG, if for whatever reason you don't complete it, you don't lose one of your dailies)

    4) To be honest I think the first 3 are the more important ones, but also consider adjusting xp from WFs at 50, kills give you little, winning gives you 15k, losing gives 12k. So you gain very little. I will run a dungeon tonight to see how much xp I gain in 20 mins and compare it to a couple of WFs to see how many it takes to match it (xp wise and time wise)

    It may not seem a big deal to many, but PAs give a big boost to your char once you have most of them, and it seems an issue that PvP gains them so much more slowly, especially as they need every tree. This is not just about closing the disparity between PvE and PvP (which between gear AND PAs can get crazy) but just balancing things out overall - so that if a PvPer wanted to start getting serious about PvE they weren't a million miles behind with PAs. If a PvEr wants to enjoy PvP they aren't 'slowing' their progression with PAs (When PvPing I can't help but feel I could be doing PvE stuff to faster gain PAs and make myself more effective in both PvE raids and PvP).

    Well, that's all my rambling done. I don't see how these changes would be negative to either group of players

  2. #2
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    12,128

    Default

    Expansion releases like to tout all about the "New DUNGEONS, new RAIDS, new ZONES woo hooo Rift storms raining planerite join the fantasy wonderland!" They are going to speak on the bold advertising points that sell best to masses. But I wouldn't be surprised the least bit if the level cap to 60 brings forth major mechanical changes. For example slapping hit on pvp gear may actually just be a band-aid until the cap raise. Just based on my history of Eq2 from what I remember, though I don't tout this as one of their 'better' traits, expansions often introduced major mechanic rehauls. Sure enough often in places that were becoming a conundrum in the prior expansion/end game. But this far away from the expansion, they are going to say "Telara prepare! New mechanical stats on pvp gear to divide desire for stats to maintain hit rates on players!". That is the stuff you see in beta.

    I am just saying the world may and probably will flip upside down (rift world) come expansion. Level raise and all leaves room for a lot of things. I've said this in other threads but, probably just better off seeing what the expansion has. If they announced it that means they have been working on it for some time most likely. Probably started working on it around EI imo But I would bet they are going to try and tackle their pvp/pve itemization. They have shown they want two progressive models, that aren't absurdly un-synergistic but also that each model provides the best gear within itself (I think). I bet that is something they will try to do better with the level cap raise. They realized the +hit stuff just borked it up and slapped +hit on gear to band-aid it till the expansion. But I bet they have some plans in store to improve their pve/pvp models of gear progression but they were just too major to throw into a game update mechanic wise.
    New round up of some high rank matches
    Chun-Li*E.Honda*Evil Ryu
    Abel*Ibuki*Dhalsim
    Gouken*Zangief*Ryu

  3. #3
    General of Telara
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    839

    Default

    I hope they have plans for that, but I believe the xp adjustements is a much easier and quicker fix and something that should not need to wait until the expansion. It isn't even purely a PvE/PvP specific issue in terms of balance (though it does have an impact) simply that there is no reason for PvP PA progression to be so slow

  4. #4
    Rift Chaser
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    378

    Default

    I also do both with max levels. Though I do see an xp disparity between time spent in pve versus pvp in some situations, I don't see a big problem.

    The game encourages people who really want to maximize their PA gain to do both to a certain extent. This is as it should be, as I think cross-breeding is healthy for the game.

    Several pure PVE'rs in our guild only got into pvp when they realized the xp they could get from the daily warfront. A few are now hooked on pvp because of it. I'm sure some pure pvp'ers came to enjoy dungeons via the daily random.

    And for those that don't want to stray out of pvp or pve, they aren't at a huge disadvantage.

  5. #5
    Plane Walker Matsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    424

    Default

    I see no disparity. If you only PvP, and you want more PA, you have to go grind onslaughts and do your dailies.

    If you're a raider, you have to do the exact same thing, and I can promise you that most raiders hate that crap as much as PvPers do.

    If you're someone that only does casual small group and solo content, you're already golden, and why would you care anyway?

    I'm not saying it's necessarily a good system, just that it isn't exactly imbalanced.

    Personally, I'm hoping they do away with PA entirely with the expansion, or turn it into nothing but fluff/quality of life abilities.

  6. #6
    Champion of Telara Arcshayde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,343

    Default

    IA offers a good compromise for PvP'ers, it's instant and not too heavy on PvE mechanics. Plus it offers the chance for Open World PvP.

  7. #7
    General of Telara
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    839

    Default

    But adjusting the PvP xp shouldn't have any negative impact on anyone.

    If exclusively PvP, great, you have a lot of PA you need and now get them at a decent rate

    If you exclusively PvE, then you are not effected at all - you won't be forced to PvP because even with adjustments PvE will still be more effective for PA points, it's inevitable

    If you do both you aren't slowing progression by doing PvP and more importantly if you don't like IA, or dungeons (presumably mostly a raider) you now have another way of getting decent PA xp.

    I don't see how these adjustments would have any negative impact on anyone. Especially the one I would like to see most being dailies stacking to 7 like Dungeons do.

    I am not saying things are terrible nor am I saying PvPers are way too behind on PA and its not fair, but there is an imbalance here that doesn't need to be

  8. #8
    Ascendant Aguni's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    3,387

    Default

    Un-nerf the PvP weapons.
    Turn that garbs vengeance back into AP/SP/Base stats.

    Tweak the base stats so that PvP weapons have more endurance/valor at the cost of offensive power.
    Much simpler and neater, without the messiness of vengeance.

    Sure, PvE weapons have more oomph to them, but not enough to justify the loss of endurance and valor.

    in turn, PvP weapons won't have as much damage/healing potential to them that raiders worry about competing.

    Least in Heaven it would work.

  9. #9
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    12,128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Matsu View Post

    If you're a raider, you have to do the exact same thing, and I can promise you that most raiders hate that crap as much as PvPers do.


    Personally, I'm hoping they do away with PA entirely with the expansion, or turn it into nothing but fluff/quality of life abilities.
    For something like PA it is going to inevitably work like Eq2. Grind spots = best bang for buck for leveling PA. Same way in Eq2, the best way to get AA was finding a grind spot with respawning mobs or a ridiculous abundance of mobs to constantly mow through. I mean you could do quests, raid, new zones and all the big picture of content. But when it came down to it, nothing beat someone in their grind spot undisturbed. Nearly the same with PA. The quickest way to earn it will probably always be pure intensive grind spots. Which is pretty much doing onslaughts and zone events. Especially EI where you can keep hitting crystals and chaining the fury buff and pretty much solo mass mobs at a time with proper specs.

    And I agree, being a person who used to raid hardcore in another MMO for 4 years, the raiders are no less happy with the means to do it than pvpers. Raiders aren't all PvE fan boys and don't all enjoy goofing off in open zones too sometimes. Some raiders are like pvpers, they really would prefer if they could ignore everything but the capitol city and raid zones. Many people in my HC guilds were like this and didn't even do heroic level zones, only raid content. The people in my guild who got the most XP were the ones who went to the solo content and grinded for hours/boxed alts etc. I am not sure why people get this notion that raiders = OMG I LOVE EVERYTHING IN EI just because both are pve types of content. Lots of people just flat out hate grinding solo content in open zones - that is the best way though.

    PA would have been much better if they bottlenecked it somewhere. In Eq2 they started with like 50AA, increased it to I think 100? Maybe smaller steps in between. But it went up gradually and is now around like 350 full dings. PA came out and was like LOL YOU NEED OVER 900 DINGS TO FILL ME OUT. IT come out with such a huge perceivable limit. If they had done the limiting correct and maybe say, made it so you can only get enough points to fully spec t1/2 of 3 trees - then it would be far more reasonable and the expectation wouldn't be to fill the entire thing out. After all, I know the AA system had choices and you had to pick. To get enough AA in eq2 to fill out every single bubble of every point would be nearly as absurd as filling out an entire PA tree. It's why they put a limit on it so you had to pick and choose. PA needs a rehaul and a limit or major cut in required progression to max it is needed. I really am not sure what they intended with it. It just seems sloppy when you give something such a high cap and so many options. The way it obligates people to a personal expectation gives people one that sucks to meet.
    New round up of some high rank matches
    Chun-Li*E.Honda*Evil Ryu
    Abel*Ibuki*Dhalsim
    Gouken*Zangief*Ryu

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts