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Thread: Exp Lock removal will cost subs. How about a better solution?

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default Exp Lock removal will cost subs. How about a better solution?

    This will probably fall on deaf ears, but it doesn't much matter to me at this point I guess. I have cancelled my subscription which has been active since game release over the exp-off issue. I'll be gone in early July. But on the off chance that someone at Trion with a clue does read this and re-introduces exp lock I would consider returning. So here goes. Let's start with making a few things clear which a lot of people are confused about.

    Why do people "twink"? It's the same reason that people play any aspect of this or any game. It's to have fun. And in a game, fun means that there is a challenge. And a challenge means that things are even between competitors.

    Why are twinks so strong? This is a two part answer.

    1) The power of the various classes, while using the best builds, varies by level. People complain about "twinks", but really in most brackets that means one specific type. In 20-29 for example, warriors are strongest. No one shouts in a warfront about an invincible pyro. They shout insults at a warrior who just killed 6 players by themselves. I know this first hand, as I am that guy. So balancing the various classes, *in warfronts only*, would go a long way toward solving this problem.

    2) A lot of people mistakenly jump to the "gear" conclusion. The truth is that gear has little to do with it. Any player can afford player made top level gear with green augments. ANY player. Any player can get a mediocre soul machine and farm planarite to get a few top level essences. The difference between purple augments and 3 more essences is not what separates winners from losers. What the real deal breaker is: twinks play their characters every day. The same character. At the same level. They dont use 2 buttons - they use 6, or 10. They use those various abilities when they make the most difference. They really play their character to the top of it's ability. They figure out what the best spec is. They switch their #3 soul around to see what 2 points is the most effective. They use healing potions. All of this comes together and results in a player that is immensely better at PLAYING the game. If you put them in random greens, 5 levels under, they are still going to destroy everything in their path. A great example of this on my server is a mage named Departed. He's level 20. Has been for weeks. In 3 warfronts out of 4, he will be #1 or #2 in killing blows. He uses his best abilities, at the best times, he runs away when he should and advances when he should, all of that is what makes twinks dangerous. Not them having 14 more str and 65 more armor than their opponent, and not even them being level 29. Level 29 twinks are simply going to be replaced with level 20s and players who choose not to be good will continue to be dominated.

    In this game, the fun and the effectiveness varies by warfront. The abilities available vary. I am going to speak to the 20-29 bracket as I have 5 level 29 characters: warrior, rogue, cleric, mage on defiant, extra mage on guardian side. The changes I suggest will make the removal of exp-off seem like a simplistic, amateur solution to the perceived "problem".

    Solution 1)

    The warfront team generator should assign level 29s separately from the rest of the population. The first 29 defiant and the first 29 guardian would be on their respective teams. After that, the generator would keep the 29s even on the two sides. One common problem, which is not helped by the introduction of the mercenary system (or hindered really, the problem is that it is still random), is that one team will have 3 twinks and one team will have zero. This is extremely boring for both teams. A pro-active leveling of team power by level would go a long way toward eliminating 500-5 scores. No one complains about twinks when the match ends 480-500. No one remembers when the matches are fair. They only complain when the matches are terribly one sided.

    Solution 2)

    DISABLE BLOODTHIRSTY for level 28s and 29s. No twink will stay 27 because of the sacrifices in abilities and enchants that would be required so include 28. But bloodthirsty is just overtly, stupidly overpowered. Bloodthirsty means that I dont need a healer and my warrior can kill 4, or 6, or 8 players in a row, often 2 to 1 at a time, because they can't out damage what it returns. As long as I kill a player every 10 seconds I never lose health and I never die until enough enemies are dead that they come back and swarm me. This is another time that people really remember and are angry about twinks. I riftwalk up to their spawn in black garden and kill 6 people by myself with no healer. That is absurd. It makes people mad, and while they are gratified in that I dont run away, I stay till they kill me, I know a lot of other warriors jump down and run away. Disabling bloodthirsty would make a gigantic difference toward the enjoyment of the game by the players who are simply moving through the bracket.

    Solution 3)

    One thing that really contributes to warriors being strongest at 29 is riftwalk. More precisely, riftwalk being constantly up. How this works in the real world is that my warrior twink is immune to crowd control. I do tons of damage, you can't stop me, and you can't get away from me. AND when I kill one player I will be on their teammate in less than 1 second. People ask me how I do so much damage ... the answer is that I am always, ALWAYS attacking someone. There is barely ever a full second that I am not. There are 2 solutions I see to this: one would be to switch rift storm and planar blade in the soul tree so that planar blade is not available at 29. That might have unintended consequences though as I have heard chatter that rift storm is overpowered. A better solution would be for planar blade to not reset riftwalk, rather have a critical hit reduce the current refresh timer on riftwalk by 15-20 seconds. This would still allow regular use of riftwalk, but it would not make it up nearly permanently.

    Solution 4)

    Teleport and charge abilities should NOT remove crowd control. This would help a lot with the riftwalk issue but also with other classes that use teleport to either escape or pursue. The teleport should happen, but leave the user rooted or stunned in a new spot instead of the old spot.

    Solution 5)

    One thing that is extremely clear from playing my guardian pyro in an attempt to make the teams even is that disarm is extremely broken. Moreover, all crowd control is extremely broken. Here will come Skallrog, warrior twink, and try to turn him into a squirrel but .... oh oh, he's immune. So I'll root him and he'll be immune. So I'll try to stun him and he'll be immune. Through this time he'll be chasing me around and despite flicker and damage shields and a healing pot I'll be almost dead. So at this point, even though I know that disarm doesn't work if you root someone first, I'll try to disarm him and of course he'll be immune.

    You know what didn't happen? He didn't have someone transmogrify, root, stun, and disarm him in the 15 seconds previous to me trying these.

    The problem is that too many of these things are on the same timer. Stun SHOULD NOT be considered a movement inhibitor. Neither should transmogrify. And disarm should actually work. I haven't tested this specifically, but it does seem from casual use that if you root someone, you can't then disarm them if they remove the root. Further, warriors shouldn't be able to cast things like flamespear while disarmed. Disarm should remove all offensive attacks on melee characters. Period. It seems to work better on archers. It doesn't work worth a crap on warriors.

    Final Conclusions

    Each warfront bracket should be evaluated to see if exp-off works. It seems that the 10-19 bracket has a lot of issues. A twink in that bracket may simply be too strong compared to the other players, especially since level 10s and 12s essentially have no abilities at all. Maybe exp-off shouldn't be allowed until level 20. And after 29, maybe at 39 it is ok. Maybe not. One thing about 29 is that you can have one full spell tree, plus some fluff, but you can't really overpower yourself as you can at 50 by having multiple full trees which gives too many complimentary abilities. Someone who plays 39 would need to evaluate the situation. By the 40-49 bracket, personally I dont see the point of allowing exp-off at 49. Everyone has full abilities, wide spread access to gear from pvp, from planarite, etc. Maybe there is some reason at 40-49, but I dont see it. What I do know about is 20-29.

    The 20-29 bracket should be the go to place for casual players who like the game, and are willing to pay for the game, but dont want to put up with all the politics and unending grind needed at 50.

    Furthermore, a lot of warriors will probably read what I have written and get angry as I call for a lot of "nerfs" to 29 warriors. The truth is that there is not THAT much difference between the best players of any of the 4 classes. The twinks all know each other and they all know who is a threat. Threats are not all warriors. I know that the defiant twinks are merciless toward me when I'm on my guardian pyro. They know that if they leave me alive, then their whole team dies. Is this annoying? Yes. But that is part of the challenge. Another truth is that 1v1, my pyro cannot take a good riftblade/paladin twink. It's just not possible. It SHOULD be possible. All 4 classes should have an equal chance to take any of the others if played by equal players. I know (I have all available 29s) that other than warriors, the best players of all the classes are of very similar power. The best chloros and healing clerics are the only players right now who can stand up to a rift/paladin warrior. Sometimes it can be necessary to switch to 2h champion to kill the best healers. But switching is an option, and none of my proposed changes would impact 2h champions so healers would not become overpowered. The details I laid out above would make the 20-29 bracket fair and even.

    I strongly encourage Trion to implement the above changes, and for people who use exp-off to cut and paste this as feedback.

  2. #2
    aux
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    tl;dr

    Keeping exp lock costs more subs than removing it.
    I'm so BORED

  3. #3
    Ascendant Kyera's Avatar
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    The simplest solution is removing grandfathered/exploitative gear.

    The second simplest solution is doing that, and restructuring warfront groupings so that you can have twink and non-twink queues.

    This is assuming you want to appease both camps, as the simplest of all solutions is to remove any potential for a problem, perceived or real.
    Last edited by Kyera; 06-16-2012 at 10:25 AM.
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    Telaran Izraels queso's Avatar
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    Honestly, being a former twink on both the 39 and 49 brackets. Gear did have something to do with it. Especially in the 49 bracket where my warrior would go around 2 shotting people. I admit it was fun, but the real fun was going up against other twinks. I just feel sorry for the guardians in the 40-49 for the past couple months, it was entirely defiant dominated (at least on the seastone bracket). The only real incentive for twinking for me was the favor without the horrible gear difference. Now my former twink is decently geared and can hold his own. Instead of being completely undergeared.

    The better solution would be to make the 50 pvp grind not a grind. And people cant whine about catering to casuals because if hardcore pvp'ers have a problem with gear handouts then they obviously dont want competition. Then the casual players could get geared and actually play. (within a decent time of playing the game, say like 2 hours a day or less would get tier 1 of 2 in 2 weeks and tier 2 of 2 in 3.)

    Xp lock should be removed but the 50 grind should be fixed sooner than xp lock.
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    Rift Chaser MannSeastone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wHorde View Post
    This will probably fall on deaf ears, but it doesn't much matter to me at this point I guess. I have cancelled my subscription which has been active since game release over the exp-off issue.
    Just goes to show that they never should've added it in the first place. No matter how bad an idea is, its beneficiaries never want the gravy train to end.

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    In the long run (and it's not even a long run--it's more like a "within a few weeks" run) removing EXP lock is going to benefit the sub count way more than it's going to detract from it.

    It's also going to make it a lot easier on the PVP development part, because they only have to worry about one bracket. Like you listed in the OP, you can kill six people solo. What part about that is balanced? It forces Trion to waste time making balance decisions to cater to the severe minority that actually care about them that wouldn't be extatic if EXP lock was removed.

    Twinks are a high-maintenance, extremely detrimental part of the community. Deleting them is a good thing, for the game and it's players.
    Last edited by Zaros; 06-16-2012 at 11:20 AM.
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  7. #7
    Shield of Telara jaal's Avatar
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    tl;dr

    I briefly read some of the solutions but the problem is low level WF's should be for new players to learn about the game, not have experienced PvPers who are gear capped running cookie cutter specs destroy them.

    Sure they could get the gear in 4 hours but they shouldnt have to gear up to PvP and run a cookie cutter spec. Trion should fix 50 PvP so people dont find the need to gank low levels

  8. #8
    Shield of Telara jaal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wHorde View Post
    2) A lot of people mistakenly jump to the "gear" conclusion. The truth is that gear has little to do with it.
    Also, your kidding right?

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    Ascendant Hartzekar's Avatar
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    Posted this on the other thread. I think it's funny how you twink for a challenge.
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    Rift Chaser Topology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartzekar View Post
    Posted this on the other thread. I think it's funny how you twink for a challenge.
    Believe it or not, there were people who twinked just to kill other twinks.

    I had twinks on both sides of the 10-19 bracket, and I'd make a point to play whichever side was losing more/had less twinks at the time.
    Last edited by Topology; 06-16-2012 at 11:55 AM.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Hartzekar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Topology View Post
    Believe it or not, there were people who twinked just to kill other twinks.

    I had twinks on both sides of the 10-19 bracket, and I'd make a point to play whichever side was losing more/had less twinks at the time.
    But the fact is, P40 PvP is actually pretty balanced. At lower levels, certain abilities make specs super OP. It's more about gear at 50, but equal gear ususlaly yields good fights.
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  12. #12
    General of Telara Ashh's Avatar
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    TL;DR

    ITT: twink that enjoys facerolling new players (which hurts subs more derp) wants the gravy train to continue and post a wall of text to impress us. I hope you brought your flame suit sir because throughout this thread you will be heavily flamed, trolled and ridiculed.

  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    Kudos to you wHorde for a very well thought out post.

    Jeers to the whiners that will cry about xp lock now and the 50 pvp later
    Do you not realize you have cut off your nose to spite your face?

    xp lock helps many others that play the game for fun and just enjoy doing all the quest and dungeons in an area before moving on as I do. I rushed to 50 and missed so much of the leveling experience that I am playing several alts and turning off xp so I can actually use the gear I acquire and the proffessions I level for the level it is intended. I enjoy making my own items to use and meeting players my level. idk how many mounts I have bought for new players just to make the game more fun for them. Guess it is selfish for me to get pleasure from just playing for fun and enjoying others having fun also. I love pvp and that is what levels me too quickly, thus I guess when I turn off my xp that makes me a twink : P

  14. #14
    Shadowlander
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    Fixing the grind at 50 will fix alot of problems...ranked matches helped alot..but are so, so rare, so bolstering is being adjusted...enough? I highly..highly doubt it.

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    Ascendant Hartzekar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onlyme View Post
    Kudos to you wHorde for a very well thought out post.

    Jeers to the whiners that will cry about xp lock now and the 50 pvp later
    Do you not realize you have cut off your nose to spite your face?

    xp lock helps many others that play the game for fun and just enjoy doing all the quest and dungeons in an area before moving on as I do. I rushed to 50 and missed so much of the leveling experience that I am playing several alts and turning off xp so I can actually use the gear I acquire and the proffessions I level for the level it is intended. I enjoy making my own items to use and meeting players my level. idk how many mounts I have bought for new players just to make the game more fun for them. Guess it is selfish for me to get pleasure from just playing for fun and enjoying others having fun also. I love pvp and that is what levels me too quickly, thus I guess when I turn off my xp that makes me a twink : P
    You can still enjoy all of the zones with mentoring.
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