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Thread: Mippo's State of PVP observations and the overpowered abilities ruining it!

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    Default Mippo's State of PVP observations and the overpowered abilities ruining it!

    I’ve spent a lot of time in previous games focusing on the PVP, as I love to do it and love the challenge of competing with other players, but I have not found Rift PVP all that enjoyable and figured I’d explain why. In general, it seems like PVP in Rift has a bunch of flaws in the game design that takes a lot of the skill and enjoyment out of the equation. For example, many Rift abilities, especially some that are overpowered in PVP like Lingering Wounds are applied passively, not actively. A lot of the overpowered specs are very simplistic to use and at the end of the day, what it really boils down to is that there isn’t much separation in terms of skill, but the separation is caused in which specs are being used. If your team has a Warrior applying Lingering Wounds, and the other team doesn’t, your team has a significant advantage in that fight and the skill level of the Warrior is largely irrelevant in providing that advantage to your team as it’s applied passively on a critical hit.

    The problem though is that it’s not just one ability, it’s a wide variety of abilities/specs that aren’t balanced properly and when you add it all up, you get a broken product that doesn’t really reward skill, is very simplistic in application, and when you take those things out all you’re left with is a pointless grind for gear. To elaborate a bit more and give specifics as to what I’m referring to, I’ll list some of the abilities that are really overpowered right now and should be looked at immediately. These are things that take precedence over the balancing of damage between the various roles etc, because these abilities are very overpowered and have large impacts on your team’s ability to win a match just based on these abilities alone, none of which have anything to do with player skill.

    1) Mien of Leadership

    A Cleric can instantly switch in combat to a tank just by switching the Mien that he is using. More importantly, because of the damage reduction in PVP through Valor gear, and the fact that Doctrine of Loyalty is just overpowered to begin with, you can still very effectively heal in PVP with Mien of Leadership on and you get all of the benefits of being a tank while doing so. Kind of an overpowered combination since as survivability increases, healing should decrease but the problem is the healing effectiveness still stays high enough in PVP that not only is it viable to heal with Mien of Leadership on, but you can still top the healing charts quite easily. I personally use it with 38sent/28justicar to get a lot of the damage reductions in the Justicar tree, while staying 38 sent for Marked by the Light which will trigger off my DoL’s. Since the healing is still high enough that you can heal quite effectively even with Leadership on, there isn’t exactly much reason not to use it. It also forces the other team to attack a tank which is even more beneficial to your team because their damage is focused onto a tank mitigating a lot of the incoming damage instead of on the easier to kill targets. If they don’t attack you, you can just switch Miens and heal, and instantly switch back when you get attacked. The healing is way too high in PVP for the amount of survivability that Mien of Leadership provides.

    2) Mana Drain

    Outside of forcing teams to kill a tank that can still top the healing charts, there is one very easy way to beat the build and that’s with mana drain. There is no defense against it, and if your class relies on mana, you are useless without it. In Rift, the mana drain abilities are just ridiculously overpowered with little to no cooldown, and a high amount of mana drained relative to mana pools to the point where it doesn’t take long to drain someone completely of mana and there’s not much they can do about it. If you have multiple people draining, you can bring a healer from full mana to OOM in about 3-4 seconds and that’s not an exaggeration at which point the healer becomes useless. I’m perfectly fine with classes having mana drain abilities, but the balance is significantly off in how much they are currently draining, and in the cooldowns. It’s not exactly fun playing a match when as soon as you show up to the fight, your mana is dropping nearly instantly and then you’re useless with nothing you can do about it. The effectiveness of mana drains in PVP is just absurdly high right now, and needs to be fixed.

    3) Lingering Wounds

    I am not a fan of passive abilities in general because players should have to make decisions as to when to use and apply various debuffs, and judge whether the effectiveness of that debuff is worth the cast. However, in Rift the vast majority of debuffs are applied without any skill involved, as they are done passively and Lingering Wounds is no exception. In this particular case you have a debuff that can’t be removed so there is no counter at all, and it immediately reduces the effectiveness of an entire role(healing) by 50%. Enough that this single ability can easily affect the outcome of a match, not based on the skill of the player as it’s obviously easy to apply regardless of skill, but simply by your team having someone with this ability on your team. I don’t mind if there are healing reduction debuffs in the game, but the players should have to apply them actively, not passively, and there should be counters to them like being cleansable unless they have other limitations such as single-target only and/or a longer cooldown. A passively applied AOE massive healing reduction debuff that can’t be removed is just ridiculously dumb to be in the game in that form. It takes no skill to use, and has a huge impact on any match by immediately making healer’s 50% less effective.

    Those are the biggest 3 right now, because each of those abilities plays a very large part in your team’s chances of success regardless of player skill. The easiest way to beat a tank healer is either by mana draining him, effectively making him useless very quickly, or by having someone applying Lingering Wounds so that your team can outdamage the healing. If you don’t have either of those 2, your chances for success are not good if the teams are even removely evenly matched and that’s the problem. A lot of the winning and losing in the matches has very little to do with player skill, it has to do more with which overpowered abilities are being used and applied by each team. These are balance issues that are large enough that they severely impact PVP and should be changed/fixed as soon as possible, but these are just the tip of the iceberg and doesn’t even get into other issues like the amount of passive abilities classes have removing a lot of the skill from the equation, or actual class balance in terms of healing, dps and survivability.

    I don’t even get why there are passive dispels on damaging abilities and I think that was recently added in, I just don’t know why. It makes little to no sense to give players unskilled abilities. If someone wants to dispel a buff from another player, they should have to make the decision to do so, and cast it. I have no problem with people being able to dispel buffs, in some situations it’s smart to do it if the buff is fairly powerful. However, the player should have to recognize that, and use the ability. By allowing it to be done passively, it just takes skill out of the equation and makes no sense. The same is true for debuffs, a lot of which are applied passively to the point that cleansing in PVP, in most cases, is completely pointless as the player gets overwhelmed with debuffs that it’s not even remotely plausible, or feasible to remove them one at a time. This happens not because players are actually casting debuffs, but because each class has a massive number of debuffs that are built passively into their abilities. You cast a damage spell, it might apply a damage reduction debuff, or a low DoT for additional damage and some spells have multiple debuffs passively applied to a single cast. Not only does the player not have to actively cast the debuff, again requiring no skill, but when multiple debuffs are applied from a single cast passively, it removes the possibility of cleansing as a viable option. Simply put, the ratio of debuffs to cleanses gets out of hand very quickly and it’s not uncommon for a player to get 10+ debuffs in a matter of seconds if only a few people are attacking him at which point cleansing is no longer a viable option.

    Good healers should know how to weigh the negatives of the debuff, and justify whether it’s worth using the cooldown to remove it but with the way it is, skill is removed from the equation when in the vast majority of situations cleansing is not a viable option since the healer is limited to a single target cleanse that removes 1 debuff and uses a global cooldown, while the target has 10+ debuffs on him. That also assumes the debuffs are actively applied, which in the vast majority of cases is not the case either. If opposing players had to actively use debuffs, and make decisions as to when to properly apply them, it would allow healers to do the same with cleanses but as it stands, it’s another element of skill removed from the equation because of the massive amount of passive debuffs being applied. To make it proportional, healers need a massive increase in the effectiveness of their cleanses. For example, each single target cleanse should remove 3 debuffs per cleanse tick or application in PVP, not one. Or, go the other route, and remove a lot of the passive debuffs in PVP. Either or is fine, but right now the ratio of cleansing effectiveness to debuffs being applied is not balanced at all. All of these are issues that exist that remove a lot of skill from the equation, and help to dictate the outcome of fights. I haven’t listed everything, just some of the more overpowered ones right now and these are all issues that PVP in Rift has right now before we even get into class balance issues, which is a whole other can of worms.

    Suffice it to say, what exactly is the point of grinding through PVP matches just to get the gear to be effective in PVP, when skill isn’t properly rewarded and certain overpowered abilities can swing a match no matter what you do?

    ~Mippo
    Last edited by Mippo; 06-13-2012 at 10:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mippo View Post
    snip
    I simply will address the issue of mana drains.

    mana draining is perfectly balanced in its current status.
    If I am solo draining someone, it sually takes me on to two mana wrenches along with a transference and TI to fully drain a cleric.

    It is impossible to flat out empty someone in a mere one to two seconds.

    Furthermore, why shouldn't the effectiveness of the tactic increase the more mana drains are focused on the target? It would be the same as Majorin's topic complaining about being focused down and dying to multiple people.

    Mana drains add a tactical aspect to the game, and changes it fro being a war of yellow and green.
    It also makes it so that there is a method of isolating an individual and cutting off resources from the front line. This is important, and mana drains are a tool that should remain as they are currently.

    Player's with poor skill will typically just blow up a mana drained cleric, which destroys the tactical advantage of the ability.
    Those with the knowledge will take advantage and ignore the mana drained cleric, knowing that killing him will only return him to the fight more easily.

    I find it much more amusing you did not at all discuss Marksman eradicate, RS hybrids, and RB champ.
    All three of which have a much greater impact than MoL, Mana Drain and Lingering Wounds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aguni View Post
    I simply will address the issue of mana drains.

    mana draining is perfectly balanced in its current status.
    If I am solo draining someone, it sually takes me on to two mana wrenches along with a transference and TI to fully drain a cleric.

    It is impossible to flat out empty someone in a mere one to two seconds.

    Furthermore, why shouldn't the effectiveness of the tactic increase the more mana drains are focused on the target? It would be the same as Majorin's topic complaining about being focused down and dying to multiple people.

    Mana drains add a tactical aspect to the game, and changes it fro being a war of yellow and green.
    It also makes it so that there is a method of isolating an individual and cutting off resources from the front line. This is important, and mana drains are a tool that should remain as they are currently.

    Player's with poor skill will typically just blow up a mana drained cleric, which destroys the tactical advantage of the ability.
    Those with the knowledge will take advantage and ignore the mana drained cleric, knowing that killing him will only return him to the fight more easily.

    I find it much more amusing you did not at all discuss Marksman eradicate, RS hybrids, and RB champ.
    All three of which have a much greater impact than MoL, Mana Drain and Lingering Wounds.
    So you're saying that being able to completely make another player useless, with that player having no defense to you doing it at all, is perfectly balanced because it takes you ~2 casts to do it instead of 1? It is possible to drain a Cleric from full mana to zero in 3-4 seconds with multiple players draining, with 1 player it takes a *little* bit longer, but it still doesn't take all that long to make the player completely useless with no defense against it which is the problem. It's grossly overpowered and needs to be tuned down drastically.

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    Well, you might have one out of three, but I didn't actually read the associated paragraphs to see if you had the right reasoning.

    wtb old VK mana drains. I want people to rage at my warrior for reasons that don't include getting burst down.
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    In terms of group play, which is what RIFT PVP is balanced around, I agree with all of these.
    Among the few things I would add, they would be: Eradicate, and High Explosives.

    I'm sure I'll get a lot of hate for that. I also think there ought to be an ICD on chaining NB cooldowns and Deaden ought to have a longer CD, but meh. That branches into smaller group PVP.
    ~Quiescent

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mippo View Post
    So you're saying that being able to completely make another player useless, with that player having no defense to you doing it at all, is perfectly balanced because it takes you ~2 casts to do it instead of 1? It is possible to drain a Cleric from full mana to zero in 3-4 seconds with multiple players draining, with 1 player it takes a *little* bit longer, but it still doesn't take all that long to make the player completely useless with no defense against it which is the problem. It's grossly overpowered and needs to be tuned down drastically.
    Agui will defend every overpowered aspect to a Mage without fail. Mana drains on mages need a nerf. Obviously. Draining a healer of mana is the same as killing them but takes no coordination or skill for a mage to mana drain. It also has no counter. It is poor pvp game design. Any serious discussion about pvp balance requires extensive nerfs to mages.

    I dont really disagree with lingering wounds per se. The issue centers more on a global discussion of healing in total and all heal debuffs would need to be analyzed in aggregate. All healing needs to be considered Overall a heal debuff is fine if it promotes group play. I do think heal debuffs should only be available to melee classes and I personally have no issue with LW because it is on a melee class and is based on a proc.
    Last edited by Majorin; 06-13-2012 at 11:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Draining a healer of mana has no counter.
    Cleansing...?

    Mages are easily the least overpowered class in the game. They don't need a nerf in any way shape or form, they need a viability buff to multiple specs.
    Last edited by Zaros; 06-13-2012 at 11:19 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Agui will defend every overpowered aspect to a Mage without fail. Mana drains on mages need a nerf. Obviously. Draining a healer of mana is the same as killing them but takes no coordination or skill for a mage to mana drain. It also has no counter. It is poor pvp game design. Any serious discussion about pvp bakance requires extensive nerfs to mages.
    You kill the mage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mippo View Post
    So you're saying that being able to completely make another player useless, with that player having no defense to you doing it at all, is perfectly balanced because it takes you ~2 casts to do it instead of 1?
    Takes quite a bit more than just 2 casts.
    In anycase, you end up with roughly 8 seconds of draining mana.
    Plenty of time to retaliate against the individual targeting you or having your teammates attack the person who is draining you with the giant blue beam

    The game is team based, and in this aspect it is perfectly acceptable since there are ways of dealing with the person who is draining.
    You can LoS, you can reflect, you can interrupt with a knockback then pull away.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mippo View Post
    It is possible to drain a Cleric from full mana to zero in 3-4 seconds with multiple players draining, with 1 player it takes a *little* bit longer, but it still doesn't take all that long to make the player completely useless with no defense against it which is the problem. It's grossly overpowered and needs to be tuned down drastically.
    By that logic, DPSing is overpowered because several players concentrating on one player will result in the single player dying in only a few seconds.
    As opposed to when its a 1v1 where they die much less quickly.

    Your argument relies on the idea that an ability is overpowered when you have several player's using the same ability on one person. That does not define an ability as overpowered, simply because ANY ability becomes more effective the more people use it on the opposition.


    Long story short, your argument is similar to majorin's which is "This ability is overpowered because multiple people are using it on one individual."
    That isn't being overpowered, that is being tactically intelligent.
    Having several people focus one individual in order to eliminate them is perfectly acceptable in a team based game.

    Your argument would hold more weight to it if mana draining from a single individual resulted in OOM status in a second or two.
    It takes at least 12 seconds of constant mana wrenching from a single individual to mana burn a cleric.
    That is far from broken.

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    By that logic, healing would be overpowered as well when you have more healers healing a target than the number of DPSers trying to kill him/her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaros View Post
    Cleansing...?

    Mages are easily the least overpowered class in the game. They don't need a nerf in any way shape or form, they need a viability buff to multiple specs.
    So you are saying the /Dom specs are not overpowered? In a group setting mages excel ahead of all other classes. The problem with mages are the sheer amount of IWIN buttons that make people rage. Squirrel is just silly. Split personality. Mana drain. Storm shackle. The list never ends. The class has the highest burst damage with cooldowns and 30 meter range.

    The major complaint from mages is that the class can not pvp effectively with every soul. Neither can warriors, rogues, or clerics.

    I would do this to improve pvp:

    1). Only allow buffs related to short term damage or defensive bonuses to be cleansed. Class specific buffs should not be cleansable. It makes balance discussions easier and game play more even. An indirect nerd to eradicate.

    2). Nerf mana drain extensively.

    3). Disable hk synergy crystals in all forms of pvp.

    4). Make squirrel break on damage and have a 30 second immunity timer.

    5). Remove the rogue sab stun from pvp.

    6). Provide warriors with several defensive cooldowns that reduce damage taken in the pvp PA trees and only impact pvp and not pve.

    7). Reduce all ranged AOE damage from all classes by 20%.

    8). Give mages a short duration stun of ~2 seconds. This is single target with a 1 minute timer.

    9). Reduce the self healing of all warriors and rogues in pvp. This includes mages. Heals can only be completed by heal spec toons with no damage.

    10). Eliminate all hybrid heals/dps in pvp.

    I am not even sure about these suggestions. Throwing some stuff out there. Any change to reduce ranged dps is probably uneccedsary if hk crystals were disabled. Who knows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mippo View Post
    snip
    Didnt read through your whole thing but stopped at Clerics Mein ability. Who cares if they can tank by using that one Mein? If they are rolling Justicar they arent doing a very good job healing.... nice try though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rennlc View Post
    By that logic, healing would be overpowered as well when you have more healers healing a target than the number of DPSers trying to kill him/her.
    Lol. That is not my arguement btw on damage. I am saying and Agui does not have the brain power to process is that ranged dps can easily focus fire. Any ranged dps within a radius of 30 meters can assist and focus the same target. I am saying ranged dps needs a nerf to account for this. Focus fire and assisting are part of pvp. No one is refuting that fact. The problem is ranged dps is to high.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    So you are saying the /Dom specs are not overpowered?
    I would believe he is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    In a group setting mages excel ahead of all other classes.
    In organized PvP mages lag behind because they take far too much to make effective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    The problem with mages are the sheer amount of IWIN buttons that make people rage.
    Really now? Do tell oh mighty warrior player.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Squirrel is just silly.
    Yeah, the fact it eats up a stun DR, breaks on damage, and is used only as a means of haste casting does make it silly.
    Not an Iwin button though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Split personality.
    Which is nerfed in PvP already by 20%
    Has a 2m cooldown as well.
    The pets can be kited until they finally stop attacking.
    Are not subject to DR.
    Can be fearbombed.
    Can be LoS'ed in definitely.

    Can be purged from the mage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Mana drain.
    Not effective on anyone except mages and clerics due to the increased regen both warriors and rogues have gotten over time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Storm shackle.
    Mine crits for around 1k on the average valor target.
    It eats up snare DR per explosion.
    Not an I win button though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    The list never ends. The class has the highest burst damage with cooldowns and 30 meter range.
    Actually that is inherently false.

    Mages actually have some of the lowest burst in the game.
    They have absolutely no method of frontloading their damage like a warrior or a rogue can.
    Much of their burst is very muh proc based, and as a pyrodom you are laacking the sheer damage capability of a full pyro.

    Oh and you're subject to DR.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post

    The major complaint from mages is that the class can not pvp effectively with every soul. Neither can warriors, rogues, or clerics.
    Warriors?
    Void Knight
    Rift Blade
    Champion
    Paragon

    Rogues?
    Everything they possess can be used in PvP if I remember right.

    Clerics?
    Don't know them at all but I believe they have some good variety remaining.

    Mages?
    Dom
    pyro
    chloro
    lock

    Ele and necro are useless.
    Stormcaller is crap AE in comparison.
    Archon is lulzy

    I'd say in terms of viable specs mages have as many as warriors do, but the effectiveness of a mage's specs compared to a warriors is significantly lower.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    I would do this to improve pvp:

    1). Only allow buffs related to short term damage or defensive bonuses to be cleansed. Class specific buffs should not be cleansable. It makes balance discussions easier and game play more even. An indirect nerd to eradicate.
    Eradicate would still be overpowered while every other purge is still nigh useless
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    2). Nerf mana drain extensively.
    Cause a 12 second drain is totally broken guys.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    3). Disable hk synergy crystals in all forms of pvp.
    As soon as they disable PvE weapons and PvP weapons in raids!
    No.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    4). Make squirrel break on damage
    Quote Originally Posted by Dominator Soul Tree
    Transforms the enemy into a harmless squirrel for 30s or until damaged. Can only affect 1 enemy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    and have a 30 second immunity timer.
    5s immunity with break free isn't enough?
    Or 15 seconds with DR?
    DR which is applicable even under the effects of break free?

    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    5). Remove the rogue sab stun from pvp.
    Remove planar blade from Riftblade in PvP
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    6). Provide warriors with several defensive cooldowns that reduce damage taken in the pvp PA trees and only impact pvp and not pve.
    WIthout affecting their damage output at all?
    LOL!

    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    7). Reduce all ranged AOE damage from all classes by 20%.
    Not melee AE right?

    In anycase its in the PA.
    -10% damage from all AE
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    8). Give mages a short duration stun of ~2 seconds. This is single target with a 1 minute timer.
    http://rift.zam.com/en/ability/2093374724/Backdraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    9). Reduce the self healing of all warriors and rogues in pvp. This includes mages. Heals can only be completed by heal spec toons with no damage.
    Chloromancer is based around healing via damage.
    Not sure if serious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    10). Eliminate all hybrid heals/dps in pvp.
    So only 51 specs? LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    So you are saying the /Dom specs are not overpowered? In a group setting mages excel ahead of all other classes. The problem with mages are the sheer amount of IWIN buttons that make people rage. Squirrel is just silly. Split personality. Mana drain. Storm shackle. The list never ends. The class has the highest burst damage with cooldowns and 30 meter range.

    The major complaint from mages is that the class can not pvp effectively with every soul. Neither can warriors, rogues, or clerics.

    I would do this to improve pvp:

    1). Only allow buffs related to short term damage or defensive bonuses to be cleansed. Class specific buffs should not be cleansable. It makes balance discussions easier and game play more even. An indirect nerd to eradicate.

    2). Nerf mana drain extensively.

    3). Disable hk synergy crystals in all forms of pvp.

    4). Make squirrel break on damage and have a 30 second immunity timer.

    5). Remove the rogue sab stun from pvp.

    6). Provide warriors with several defensive cooldowns that reduce damage taken in the pvp PA trees and only impact pvp and not pve.

    7). Reduce all ranged AOE damage from all classes by 20%.

    8). Give mages a short duration stun of ~2 seconds. This is single target with a 1 minute timer.

    9). Reduce the self healing of all warriors and rogues in pvp. This includes mages. Heals can only be completed by heal spec toons with no damage.

    10). Eliminate all hybrid heals/dps in pvp.

    I am not even sure about these suggestions. Throwing some stuff out there. Any change to reduce ranged dps is probably uneccedsary if hk crystals were disabled. Who knows.
    These are all horrible ideas and would collectively ruin PVP as we know it if even two of them were implemented. Your opinions are bad, and you should feel bad.
    ~Quiescent

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