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Thread: Fixing the Core Issue w/ Rift PvP

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    Default Fixing the Core Issue w/ Rift PvP

    This has been a long time coming but with the announcement of Rift: Storm Legion and my future in this game now completely certain, I've decided to get going on a blog dedicated exclusively to all things Rift. For now it's just a blog hosted by Blogger but I'm working to create a custom site where this blog will be hosted. Any feedback would be appreciated.

    FYI, I'm posting this here for now because my first post, as the title of this thread suggests, is about fixing what I feel is the core issue with Rift PvP. The link to my blog is in the signature below.

    Enjoy.
    Moved on from Rift due to: Rift's PvP being a mindless, skilless zerg that has been and will continue to be perpetuated and reinforced :: A horribly optimized engine :: My personal distaste for F2P (already heading down the P2W path) after giving it a fair shake. Rift is an exceptional MMO by an overachieving development team that unfortunately is ruined by a few personally show-stopping issues.

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    Rift Disciple Euthan's Avatar
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    Read it.

    Biased garbage.

    You should play a class and learn it before you speak to it.

    I will lay money on the table a p40 warrior with 11k health did NOT out damage a p40 Sab in port scion.
    ~~ Euthan ~~

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    611200 / 6000 = 101.866.

    Don't worry, I'll even round down for you:

    101 * 30 = 3030 minutes
    3030 / 60 = 50.5 hours
    Holy ****. Is that true? WTF?? That is insane! I only looked at the newb set but the next tier (with starte set) is... crazy!
    Last edited by Neebler; 06-12-2012 at 06:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Euthan View Post
    Read it.

    Biased garbage.

    You should play a class and learn it before you speak to it.

    I will lay money on the table a p40 warrior with 11k health did NOT out damage a p40 Sab in port scion.

    Actually... as I posted in another thread, there are a few warriors running the FOTM with ID weapons.. who are out damaging sabos in scion. All parties P40. It's the fact that warriors can survive a lot more, and have the hp so are easier for clerics to keep up.
    Laban Rogue <That Guild>. Bad... good? I'm the guy with the gun.

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    Rift Disciple Euthan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neebler View Post
    Holy ****. Is that true? WTF?? That is insane! I only looked at the newb set but the next tier (with starte set) is... crazy!
    I'll grant his math isn't far off but I've pulled well over 10k favor in PS when using a favor vial.

    However the "grind or no grind" argument is as old as mmos so I'd rather not get into that one and won't comment on it.
    ~~ Euthan ~~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laban of C O View Post
    Actually... as I posted in another thread, there are a few warriors running the FOTM with ID weapons.. who are out damaging sabos in scion. All parties P40. It's the fact that warriors can survive a lot more, and have the hp so are easier for clerics to keep up.
    But they do not have 11k health.

    Also I hate that raid weapons are BiS for pvp.
    ~~ Euthan ~~

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    Just read the blog post, can't agree with all of it there hoss. The grind is more of a grind than Raiders want to admit, and a bit less than pvpers want to admit. It is a grind though, that takes hours and hours... and hours. For me, the biggest issue with rift pvp is one-sided crossover of gear between pvp and pve gear sets. For those that want to be top end competative in warfronts, they run raiding as well. I raid 3 nights a week, so I can be at the top end of gear setups for pvp. I would not raid if I did not have to for this reason. The fact that pve gear is bis for pvping, is a nasty imbalance. Since raiders are ****ting their pants at the prospect of pvp weapons getting a stat they need for pvping, I like the counter proposal that all pve (raid) items gain a significant penalty to valor. -50 a single hand, -100 a two hand, when used in pvp.
    Laban Rogue <That Guild>. Bad... good? I'm the guy with the gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Euthan View Post
    But they do not have 11k health.

    Also I hate that raid weapons are BiS for pvp.
    The number of scythes I'm seeing show up in warfronts... with riftstorms around them, is getting old. Kraken spines, scythes, and storms. I'm reaaallly getting tired of that.
    Laban Rogue <That Guild>. Bad... good? I'm the guy with the gun.

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    Rift Disciple Euthan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laban of C O View Post
    The number of scythes I'm seeing show up in warfronts... with riftstorms around them, is getting old. Kraken spines, scythes, and storms. I'm reaaallly getting tired of that.
    Agreed I don't like raid weapons being a game changer for any class.

    I will also admit that RS could take a (small) nerf or perhaps a revamping like making it require a larger investment into RB truth is the real potency of the storm is it's synergy with other souls.

    In comparison:

    Flurry (pffft) 51 pts
    Corned Beef 44 pts
    Riftstorm 31 pts
    Last edited by Euthan; 06-12-2012 at 07:15 AM.
    ~~ Euthan ~~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Euthan View Post
    I'll grant his math isn't far off but I've pulled well over 10k favor in PS when using a favor vial.
    I was certainly getting around 7-8k during the bonus Scion weekend without one (random screenshot I have is 7778 with only 42 KBs). And one would imagine that you'd certainly optimize your gain by using vials where they're most beneficial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Synovia View Post
    This has been a long time coming but with the announcement of Rift: Storm Legion and my future in this game now completely certain, I've decided to get going on a blog dedicated exclusively to all things Rift. For now it's just a blog hosted by Blogger but I'm working to create a custom site where this blog will be hosted. Any feedback would be appreciated.

    FYI, I'm posting this here for now because my first post, as the title of this thread suggests, is about fixing what I feel is the core issue with Rift PvP. The link to my blog is in the signature below.

    Enjoy.
    You have a point in a few areas but I can't agree with everything. The grind for gear sucks but how else can Trion reward pvpers. Should a fresh level 50 be able to compete with a seasoned pvper in gear? I think we all can say the answer is no. The game currently has pvp sets at different ranks for little to no valar to allow people to compete at a moderate level. I can only assume that you do not have the gear and like everyone else want it given to you. Then.. when you have the gear will protest any threads advocating making gear easier to get. The problem you have is human nature. LOL.

    Rogues have it pretty good in this game. They are by far the most catered class by the developers but this fact is starting to cause some problems. Rogue sabs for instance are a major issue for pvp and need some adjustments. Historically, it has taken the devs a long time to fixed overpowered aspects to rogues which has caused severe damage to pvp and peoples perception of the game. Cleric dps is in the same boat.

    I am worried. Right now roguge sabs, mages, and cleric AOE in a map like Port Scion is so overpowered it will push more people from the game. It is not the damage per se. It is the fact it is ranged. The healer I play with is getting very tired of being stunned and focused by upwards of 10 ranged dps at the exact same time. I mean if the ranged dps had less damage, or had to worry about mobility, or had to worry about range. 30 meters is a long way with damage as high or higher then melee. It is to easy for ranged dps to focus fire the same target. This situation makes warfronts not very much fun for her. Also, she is annoyed that it takes like 300k heals for me as a warrior to do anything while ranged classes can do the same damage and killing blows with a fraction of the effort. I admit maybe some of this feeling is my constant complaining.. lol. The truth is it is very bad and prevents coordinated pvp play. The game has done a horrible job of balancing ranged and melee dps.

    Ranged dps should never approximate melee dps. I think adding abilities like rift walk gave the developers a reason to create this cluster but that is not how pvp works. A warrior teleporting to one ranged dps does not justifiy the amount of damage ranged dps is doing in the game and it will push people away. People that want an honest challenge. Good players looking for competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    You have a point in a few areas but I can't agree with everything. The grind for gear sucks but how else can Trion reward pvpers. Should a fresh level 50 be able to compete with a seasoned pvper in gear? I think we all can say the answer is no. The game currently has pvp sets at different ranks for little to no valar to allow people to compete at a moderate level. I can only assume that you do not have the gear and like everyone else want it given to you. Then.. when you have the gear will protest any threads advocating making gear easier to get. The problem you have is human nature. LOL.

    Rogues have it pretty good in this game. They are by far the most catered class by the developers but this fact is starting to cause some problems. Rogue sabs for instance are a major issue for pvp and need some adjustments. Historically, it has taken the devs a long time to fixed overpowered aspects to rogues which has caused severe damage to pvp and peoples perception of the game. Cleric dps is in the same boat.

    I am worried. Right now roguge sabs, mages, and cleric AOE in a map like Port Scion is so overpowered it will push more people from the game. It is not the damage per se. It is the fact it is ranged. The healer I play with is getting very tired of being stunned and focused by upwards of 10 ranged dps at the exact same time. I mean if the ranged dps had less damage, or had to worry about mobility, or had to worry about range. 30 meters is a long way with damage as high or higher then melee. It is to easy for ranged dps to focus fire the same target. This situation makes warfronts not very much fun for her. Also, she is annoyed that it takes like 300k heals for me as a warrior to do anything while ranged classes can do the same damage and killing blows with a fraction of the effort. I admit maybe some of this feeling is my constant complaining.. lol. The truth is it is very bad and prevents coordinated pvp play. The game has done a horrible job of balancing ranged and melee dps.

    Ranged dps should never approximate melee dps. I think adding abilities like rift walk gave the developers a reason to create this cluster but that is not how pvp works. A warrior teleporting to one ranged dps does not justifiy the amount of damage ranged dps is doing in the game and it will push people away. People that want an honest challenge. Good players looking for competition.
    Once again you have everything as s backwards. It isn't ranged dps that is causing your inability to play your melee spec properly ... it is your inability to play your melee spec properly that is enabling ranged dps to own you. There are all sorts of countermeasures against ranged dps ... you're simply too clueless and fixated on playing like you want to instead of how you need to. Countless people here have told you the same thing ... how can you be so blithely oblivious to it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Euthan View Post
    Read it.

    Biased garbage.

    You should play a class and learn it before you speak to it.

    I will lay money on the table a p40 warrior with 11k health did NOT out damage a p40 Sab in port scion.
    I'll be sure to take screenshots next time as it occurred on more than one occasion. In fact, I'll do one better for you and will use Rift's YouTube integration to share a couple videos demonstrating my point. I will correct one thing, however. I did not say that a p40 Warrior outdamage a p40 Sabo in PS. I said that a Warrior I presumed was r40 outdamaged ME as Sabo in PS. I was wearing six pieces of top-end PvE gear and the rest was either and HK relic or ID gear. Going off of memory, the Warrior in question was a Mathosian that broke 800K damage done while I completed the Warfront just over 700K.

    Also, there's no need to be brash in saying that I don't know my class. I do, in fact, understand my class quite well.
    Moved on from Rift due to: Rift's PvP being a mindless, skilless zerg that has been and will continue to be perpetuated and reinforced :: A horribly optimized engine :: My personal distaste for F2P (already heading down the P2W path) after giving it a fair shake. Rift is an exceptional MMO by an overachieving development team that unfortunately is ruined by a few personally show-stopping issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    You have a point in a few areas but I can't agree with everything. The grind for gear sucks but how else can Trion reward pvpers. Should a fresh level 50 be able to compete with a seasoned pvper in gear? I think we all can say the answer is no. The game currently has pvp sets at different ranks for little to no valar to allow people to compete at a moderate level. I can only assume that you do not have the gear and like everyone else want it given to you. Then.. when you have the gear will protest any threads advocating making gear easier to get. The problem you have is human nature. LOL.

    Rogues have it pretty good in this game. They are by far the most catered class by the developers but this fact is starting to cause some problems. Rogue sabs for instance are a major issue for pvp and need some adjustments. Historically, it has taken the devs a long time to fixed overpowered aspects to rogues which has caused severe damage to pvp and peoples perception of the game. Cleric dps is in the same boat.

    I am worried. Right now roguge sabs, mages, and cleric AOE in a map like Port Scion is so overpowered it will push more people from the game. It is not the damage per se. It is the fact it is ranged. The healer I play with is getting very tired of being stunned and focused by upwards of 10 ranged dps at the exact same time. I mean if the ranged dps had less damage, or had to worry about mobility, or had to worry about range. 30 meters is a long way with damage as high or higher then melee. It is to easy for ranged dps to focus fire the same target. This situation makes warfronts not very much fun for her. Also, she is annoyed that it takes like 300k heals for me as a warrior to do anything while ranged classes can do the same damage and killing blows with a fraction of the effort. I admit maybe some of this feeling is my constant complaining.. lol. The truth is it is very bad and prevents coordinated pvp play. The game has done a horrible job of balancing ranged and melee dps.

    Ranged dps should never approximate melee dps. I think adding abilities like rift walk gave the developers a reason to create this cluster but that is not how pvp works. A warrior teleporting to one ranged dps does not justifiy the amount of damage ranged dps is doing in the game and it will push people away. People that want an honest challenge. Good players looking for competition.
    What I'm arguing is that the gear to be competitive should NEVER be the reward for one's efforts during the activity one is competing in. There are plenty of "grindable" things you could reward PvPers that would be highly sought after that do not include the gear to be competitive.

    As far as things that have the potential to "push people from the game", my fear is that when new players take a look at the gear grind required to be competitive in PvP, they will either have to convince themselves that they don't enjoy PvP or they will leave Rift altogether.

    Lastly, as to your point that Rogues have it good in this game, I'll agree. However, the argument that ranged DPS should not be doing as much as melee DPS is a bit ridiculous. Is to say, then, that Mages should have to run melee for optimal DPS? Further, many of the encounters in Rift are not melee-friendly. Are you arguing that since there is a moderate disadvantage present for melee in a raiding environment that they should be capable of substantially more than ranged?
    Last edited by Synovia; 06-12-2012 at 09:22 AM.
    Moved on from Rift due to: Rift's PvP being a mindless, skilless zerg that has been and will continue to be perpetuated and reinforced :: A horribly optimized engine :: My personal distaste for F2P (already heading down the P2W path) after giving it a fair shake. Rift is an exceptional MMO by an overachieving development team that unfortunately is ruined by a few personally show-stopping issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitnine View Post
    I was certainly getting around 7-8k during the bonus Scion weekend without one (random screenshot I have is 7778 with only 42 KBs). And one would imagine that you'd certainly optimize your gain by using vials where they're most beneficial.
    The numbers I provided were based off my own experiences over this weekend in Port Scion. Even were I to grant 2000 more favor per match towards your side of the argument, my point would still hold and be just as valid given the sheer number of concessions I made.
    Moved on from Rift due to: Rift's PvP being a mindless, skilless zerg that has been and will continue to be perpetuated and reinforced :: A horribly optimized engine :: My personal distaste for F2P (already heading down the P2W path) after giving it a fair shake. Rift is an exceptional MMO by an overachieving development team that unfortunately is ruined by a few personally show-stopping issues.

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