Fixing the Core Issue w/ Rift PvP

[Synovia]

You jumped into the e-peen waggling fight (not necessarily solely involving you and one other party, but several people) that went on for a page (which was over half the page, if your replies had been consolidated). That doesn't leave a lot of points for 'good points' to have been made or replied to.

BUT I DIGRESS, since I got a reply that can be discussed.



Whitefall Steppes is certainly the most-inefficient -- Escalation, not so much, but Avalanche surely, because it minimizes combat and people turtle in it (which delays times between repeat engagements, and discourages attackers from wasting their time). Library and Black Garden are the most time-efficient, especially if you're winning (and we are talking 'optimal', here), because of their sheer speed of play. Port Scion has the potential to be 'time-efficient' if and only if there's a giant meatgrinder going on on the bridge, with a lot of deaths in your favour.



I actually said 'other potential avenues for favor generation', which didn't necessarily mean grinding PvP rifts (which are inefficient), but PvP dailies (which can be done in quite a timely manner, especially if you're not alone) and taking advantage of, as you said, the weekend warfront and other potential 'favor boosters'. Still, I'll concede the point to your next paragraph.



If you told me that I could start a game that was nearing a year and a half in age, and had already seen a PvP level cap increase and two tiers of new PvE content implemented, and told me that I could get the required currency to get some of the pieces of starter equipment via PvP while I was leveling, and that I could get competitive with players playing since release after a month and a half or two months of casual time investment in PvP, I would personally consider that to be a pretty good projection.

Why? Because, in the context of an MMORPG, two months to get to a level where you can be competitive in the end game (be it PvE or PvP) is actually a pretty damn good window. Of course, maybe I'm okay with that, because my marginally-above-average talent level helps to minimize some of the deficit I'd be encountering with the low tier set, and I've already mauled faces with the mid-tier set (would it shock you to hear that I only have three pieces of Criterion, plus two rings, because I haven't considered it a necessary upgrade and have been instead trying to work on a non-bard valor sigil?).

ymmv, of course, but really, "70 hours" (or less, if you're winning more than losing -- i.e. not always solo queued like a miserable loser like me) to be functionally positioned for the end game is pretty good in the genre. I bet it'd take me more than 70 hours of playing (from scratch and without outside assistance) to get HK-ready.

Of course, maybe part of the problem is that you're painting the portrait as a necessary and solo-focused grind. My trip to the prestige cap was interspersed with dungeons, world events, leveling crafting, playing alts, and engaging in PvA. I haven't found it especially 'grindy' or 'frustrating', even though I've clocked far more than 140 hours (let's say it takes double your projected time to hit the cap and get everything).

Edit: You also need to keep in mind that costs per piece are down on the PTS -- part of the reason I haven't run in and picked up the rest of my Criterion yet.

Sorry I didn't respond earlier as last night we were working on Russila and then I had to get into work earlier than usual this morning.

To your points:

Now that I look back, it appears I did jump into a bit of e-peen wagging although I'd argue I wasn't the one wagging my e-peen around ;).

What you say regarding the efficiency of favor gains across the Warfronts makes sense and I'm in agreement.

With respect to other ways to gain favor, we need only consider the most optimal way to acquire it. I haven't specifically looked but I thought there were only 3-4 PvP dailies available and each award no more than 1200 favor which, even using the upper bound, would still put us below optimal favor gains in a Warfront. Even were the dailies to exceed the amount of favor you could gain in a Warfront, we definitely can't be talking about much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

To your final point, I feel something that is often lost in conversations such as this is that this is a subscription-based MMO where those paying to play the game expect, in return, the ability to have fun during their time in-game. Were that not the case, gaming itself would not exist in the first place. To me, the argument that someone who has played the game since launch should have an inherent and sizable gear advantage over someone who has played the game one month doesn't have any merit when considering PvP (PvE is inherently progression-based at its core). As a paying customer to a video game, I expect at least the opportunity to be competitive very quickly and any artificial barriers to entry that would prohibit my ability to compete, aside from my own skill and competence, would jeopardize my willingness to continue paying for the game.

[Kyera]

To your final point, I feel something that is often lost in conversations such as this is that this is a subscription-based MMO where those paying to play the game expect, in return, the ability to have fun during their time in-game. Were that not the case, gaming itself would not exist in the first place. To me, the argument that someone who has played the game since launch should have an inherent and sizable gear advantage over someone who has played the game one month doesn't have any merit when considering PvP (PvE is inherently progression-based at its core). As a paying customer to a video game, I expect at least the opportunity to be competitive very quickly and any artificial barriers to entry that would prohibit my ability to compete, aside from my own skill and competence, would jeopardize my willingness to continue paying for the game.

To me, by opting to play in the MMORPG sandbox, you're acknowledging one of the caveats of the genre, which is that, in any gear- or level-based progression driven member of the genre, you're at a deficit in some form or another by starting well after launch. It's one of the implicit realities of the genre that participants acknowledge and, really, should anticipate. The exceptions are few and far between, and honestly aren't gangbuster success stories.

Some games minimize this with level cap increases and 'gear resets' (which I hate), and others do it by minimizing the amount of upgrading needed (in DAoC, once your template was set, it was pretty much set, and likely only had to change in two situations: as a result of ToA, and as a result of the updated dragon loot) and reflecting progression in other ways (oh, realm ranks~). Other games acknowledge it, but keep bringing the floor up periodically to keep a tight, narrow band in performance, even as the ceiling rises -- this is the methodology that Rift has employed.

The one commonality is that they all have it. Why? Because it's a staple of the genre. Let's be honest -- 95% of the people that play MMORPGs do it for the sense of progression. I personally got into the genre out of boredom and a friend's recommendation of DAoC, and my motive was never 'progression' overall, but I may have had that fostered by the solo/8v8 communities on my servers, and have carried that over to other games -- but the reality is that people play for the carrot. If the carrot is too accessible, the top tier players get 'bored' and quit too easily; if the carrot isn't accessible enough, we get threads like this lamenting 'how long' (even if it's short in MMO-terms) it takes to get there.

What neither side seems to 'get' is that, in MMO progression, there's a defined beginning, there's a need for progression, and there's a defined end. These can get shifted, but someone's always going to be at the top (and, in aggregate, bored), and someone's always going to be starting fresh (and, in aggregate, rage about it). It is a genre reality. Asking to change that is asking to change how the genre works. *shrug*

For those of us that enjoy the journey and are fine with it coming to an 'end', it doesn't matter.

[spaceboots]

I enjoy the mishmash of writing styles on these boards.

[Mechar]

I started pvping with my warrior, about 3-4 months ago and am now rank 38. We might be able to use my example to help flesh out some of the math you guys have been using.

Some data about how I went about things:

I have queued as a group for a warfont less than a handful of times total. All solo queing essentially.

I have the 24 month rewards, so I believe that means I had 30 two hour favor/presitge vials of which I still have two. So by definition I've spent at least 56 hours just on vials.

I have only ever used vials when I had two hours for sure to dedicate to chain queing, most often on the weekends when I could chain queue for the bonus WF. I have gone out of my way to not waste vial time.

I have done almost all of the pvp bonus warfont dailies during this time and tons of warfronts without vials. I'd guess I average an hour a night of non-vial time in warfronts over the course of an average evening, but its tough to say. 3-4 warfronts a night seems about right.

I have done the Order of the Eye dailies\weekly enough to be almost revered; I should get it next week sometime.

With all of that as my favor sources, like I said I am rank 38, with the 4pc top tier gear, rk36 weapons, synergy crystal, etc. I don't have the full set of top tier pvp gear, missing chest, legs, a ring and the gun I think which are all entry tier pvp gear. I'd argue my experience has taken longer than most of the assumptions in this thread, and like I said above, I have worked pretty hard at optimizing my favor per hour within the context of someone that solo queues.

--------

My opinion on the "core issue" is different people are motivated differently. For me, beyond the people and friendships of an MMO, the reason to play the content is character growth. I didn't mind getting steamrolled and being very cautious early on. It was annoying, but fun, to chase wardens around in my VK spec at rank 12 using silences and interrupts to annoy them because nothing could be done to hurt them while they /lol'd at me. Now, the same people that threw out the taunts are much quieter typically and I can stride across the battlefield intelligently, but fearlessly.

Now, when two people are trying to take out the Idol of Gods, hell yes I'm rushing over there to stop them. Of course it doesn't work sometimes, but activities that would have been completely futile 3 months ago there's at least some chance of success now. Its fun, because I've earned the right to at least be acknowledged on the battlefield. I do think the grind could be shorter, even now that I'm almost done with it, but I also think there should be a lot of time investment to get to the top in terms of gear.

My longwinded way of saying I like things the way they are. I wouldn't be motivated solely by pets, capes, titles etc.

[Majorin]

Once again you have everything as s backwards. It isn't ranged dps that is causing your inability to play your melee spec properly ... it is your inability to play your melee spec properly that is enabling ranged dps to own you. There are all sorts of countermeasures against ranged dps ... you're simply too clueless and fixated on playing like you want to instead of how you need to. Countless people here have told you the same thing ... how can you be so blithely oblivious to it?

You play a rogue. I am sorry but for pvp to improve the devs needs to nerf ranged dps. Rogue Sabs need some tweaking. Generally speaking most agree with me. Look at your post. You did not say anything of value. There is nothing you can say.

I have noticed a few things. When a ranged dps does get the heal attention of a warrior they put up godly numbers. Warriors normally demand heals or will not pvp. It sucks because a warrior gets stunned and ranged shot to death in a matter if seconds without heals.

Trion must nerf all ranged single target and AOE in pvp. There is no arguement against it.

[Mechar]

Trion must nerf all ranged single target and AOE in pvp. There is no arguement against it.

As I wrote above I play a warrior, and nothing needs to be done about ranged dps.

There is an easy argument against it: suck less.

[Kyera]

With all of that as my favor sources, like I said I am rank 38, with the 4pc top tier gear, rk36 weapons, synergy crystal, etc. I don't have the full set of top tier pvp gear, missing chest, legs, a ring and the gun I think which are all entry tier pvp gear. I'd argue my experience has taken longer than most of the assumptions in this thread, and like I said above, I have worked pretty hard at optimizing my favor per hour within the context of someone that solo queues.

His time estimate was on a full set of the middle tier of gear (specifically armor), so if you've bought weapons, the synergy crystal, and four pieces of top tier gear, you're likely more 'advanced' than the target for his estimations, which is why it took longer.

[Synovia]

To me, by opting to play in the MMORPG sandbox, you're acknowledging one of the caveats of the genre, which is that, in any gear- or level-based progression driven member of the genre, you're at a deficit in some form or another by starting well after launch. It's one of the implicit realities of the genre that participants acknowledge and, really, should anticipate. The exceptions are few and far between, and honestly aren't gangbuster success stories.

Some games minimize this with level cap increases and 'gear resets' (which I hate), and others do it by minimizing the amount of upgrading needed (in DAoC, once your template was set, it was pretty much set, and likely only had to change in two situations: as a result of ToA, and as a result of the updated dragon loot) and reflecting progression in other ways (oh, realm ranks~). Other games acknowledge it, but keep bringing the floor up periodically to keep a tight, narrow band in performance, even as the ceiling rises -- this is the methodology that Rift has employed.

The one commonality is that they all have it. Why? Because it's a staple of the genre. Let's be honest -- 95% of the people that play MMORPGs do it for the sense of progression. I personally got into the genre out of boredom and a friend's recommendation of DAoC, and my motive was never 'progression' overall, but I may have had that fostered by the solo/8v8 communities on my servers, and have carried that over to other games -- but the reality is that people play for the carrot. If the carrot is too accessible, the top tier players get 'bored' and quit too easily; if the carrot isn't accessible enough, we get threads like this lamenting 'how long' (even if it's short in MMO-terms) it takes to get there.

What neither side seems to 'get' is that, in MMO progression, there's a defined beginning, there's a need for progression, and there's a defined end. These can get shifted, but someone's always going to be at the top (and, in aggregate, bored), and someone's always going to be starting fresh (and, in aggregate, rage about it). It is a genre reality. Asking to change that is asking to change how the genre works. *shrug*

For those of us that enjoy the journey and are fine with it coming to an 'end', it doesn't matter.

I am in agreement that a traditional caveat to playing MMOs is gear-based progression where you start at the bottom and eventually arrive at the top. However, I'm challenging this status quo much the same as MMOs are starting to do in recent years and in the foreseeable future. To use just one example, Guild Wars started down this path of challenging the status quo by making PvP gear very easy for anyone to obtain. The result of this was that PvP no longer included an expansive gear-based progression to get to an even level of competitiveness for everyone but rather was about how you played your class and the decisions you made. Once you obtained your PvP gear, which was trivial to do, the upgrades from that point forward were largely aesthetic. This made PvP about, well, PvP. It was about the competition and about challenging yourself against other players. In short, it was about how skilfully you played your character and not about what gear you had equipped. As history has proven, this way of going about PvP was a huge success, helped drive the game through several expansions and now has given birth to one of the most anticipated MMO launches in history (this is regardless of one's opinion about whether GW2 will be "good" or "bad"). Guild Wars 2 is going about PvP in the same exact way. Gear for PvP will be trivial to obtain and thus you are left with PvP being about PvP and not split between gear progression and actual competition. World of Warcraft started down this path as well.

Do you recall how the initial implementation of PvP was done? I do because I was there and I fought with about two to three other players on Mal'ganis for the High Warlord title so I could optimize my gear by equipping those High Warlord weapons. I spent literally hours upon hours every single day but others even had people logging onto their account for them to play when they were no longer able to stay awake. Not too long after the implementation of all this, Blizzard scratched the entire system realizing that such a grind was actually detrimental to the game. They then implemented the concept of "seasons" and partnered this up with Arena. This lessened the gear-based progression for PvP quite a bit but they soon realized even this wasn't enough. As it stands today, and has stood for quite some time in the game, the PvP gear is significantly easier to acquire in WoW than it is in Rift. You can take a completely fresh level 85 and in a week's time have them completely decked out in the previous season's gear and even a couple pieces of the current season's gear if you are fortunate enough to get a drop or two in Tol Barad. This then leaves PvP less about the gear and more about the actual combat and the skill involved. So what then are the rewards that keep people PvPing in WoW? Titles, mounts and the enjoyment of PvP itself. Guild Wars 2 is taking this idea even further and I fully expect other, future MMOs to follow suit.

As a final note, I would challenge the argument around people needing gear-based progression to enjoy and participate consistently in PvP with a simple observation: were that the case, why are there so many r40 players whom have clearly finished their gear grind long ago still PvPing? If there is no more gear to acquire why are they still playing? You might argue that 1.9 is on the horizon and they are grinding favor for the new gear set but that doesn't explain their presence in Warfronts dating back to 1.8 and earlier. If there is no more gear to acquire, why are they playing? The simple answer is this: they enjoy PvP in and of itself and even more so now that they are "competitive" as they could possibly be.

[Synovia]

You play a rogue. I am sorry but for pvp to improve the devs needs to nerf ranged dps. Rogue Sabs need some tweaking. Generally speaking most agree with me. Look at your post. You did not say anything of value. There is nothing you can say.

I have noticed a few things. When a ranged dps does get the heal attention of a warrior they put up godly numbers. Warriors normally demand heals or will not pvp. It sucks because a warrior gets stunned and ranged shot to death in a matter if seconds without heals.

Trion must nerf all ranged single target and AOE in pvp. There is no arguement against it.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this as you haven't presented any compelling arguments in support of your claim and our arguments against yours aren't swaying you in the slightest. Fighting against ranged as melee is a concept as old as PvP itself and, specific to Rift, there are mechanics in place for melee to combat ranged. Further, I'd point out that although I enjoy Saboteur in Port Scion and Library, I play melee using Assassin/Riftstalker in all other Warfronts. As melee in these Warfronts, I have never once drawn the conclusion that I was at a disadvantage against a ranged player simply because they were ranged.

[bitnine]

There is an easy argument against it: suck less.

For some reason, this exchange has made me picture an amusing scene:

Manager: "Dammit, I told you to keep adding nerfs to every other class until he's not terrible at PvP!"
Haggard Developer: "Sir, I'm trying but - we've run out of nerfs!"
Manager: "How is that even possible?!"
Haggard Developer: "I don't know - I'm down to just been spawning friendly raid bosses and still no dice!"

[Kyera]

Gear for PvP will be trivial to obtain and thus you are left with PvP being about PvP and not split between gear progression and actual competition. World of Warcraft started down this path as well.

I should say that I, personally, am not averse to such a scenario, but it does buck genre convention and, in a game like Rift where there is PvE vs. PvP bleedover, giving a 'fresh 50' easy access to PvP kit (the current 'starter' gear being more or less equivalent to T2 pieces, and that'll change with 1.9) may very well trivialize some of the early content in the game. The sort of position you're advocating for may require a redesign of the PvE vs. PvP gear paradigm before accessibility is made widely available.

If I can PvP for a week, get some crafted weapons, and put on a few hit/focus runes and be HK-ready (if at the low end of 'ready'), that potentially opens up another bag of worms. The Guild Wars I/II model, as presented, is certainly not a bad one, but that game has clearly marketed and positioned itself in a different way than Rift and most other MMORPGs (for better or worse). I consider myself a highly competitive, team-oriented PvP player, but GW1 failed to grab me and nothing in GW2 has grabbed me, either -- it can flatten the gear 'curve' all it wants, but if it's not interesting me, it doesn't matter.

Personally, I'd be happy if getting geared required a time and money investment, and maybe a little bit of talent (SPELLCRAFTING CALCULATORS GO), but that upsets the entire carrot picture and I would say it's evident that people want to chase after new gear (otherwise we wouldn't have seen as much of a clamour for P8 and new gear, back in the day, though we'd have seen some, because, Hammerknell weapons).

Do you recall how the initial implementation of PvP was done?

I actually don't, because I didn't play WoW. I skipped the launch because the murmurs I was getting weren't positive, and I was annoyed at the dropped ball on some pre-launch promises (that were the things I was really looking forward to), and though I did eventually play the trial, I had a sour PvP experience (due to terrible players -- my tolerance has since improved, obviously) and didn't buy in.

I do appreciate the summary, but none of what you've said convinces me that Rift has ever been in any position but one similar to the 'current' status you express -- you have access to the current 'season' (top rank of gear), and the two previous 'seasons' of gear. The only 'bubble' exists because fresh 50s are coming into level 50 with such garbage gear (because the drops from AP/CC are old P1/2-tier equivalent, at best) and need to slog through a bit of a grind to get that lowest set (unless they partook in PvP prior to hitting 50 and thus have some bankrolled favor).

Yes, there is a two season gap, but that gap is being narrowed in an upcoming patch as a result of a) improvements to the bolster system, b) a flattening of the stat range between the new lowest tier set and the new highest tier set, and c) cost reductions. Attempts are being made to keep the PvE/PvP paradigm while improving both accessibility of gear and durability of newer players.

As a final note, I would challenge the argument around people needing gear-based progression to enjoy and participate consistently in PvP with a simple observation: were that the case, why are there so many r40 players whom have clearly finished their gear grind long ago still PvPing?

Because the people that are still playing are the ones that don't give two ****s about gear or progression and just want to PvP.

Now take a step back and ask yourself two questions: a) what portion of the Rift community (and, tangentially, the MMO community) at large do these players represent; and, b) how many people have quit, advertised or otherwise, as a result of hitting the cap and getting 'bored' or 'having nothing to do'?

[Axaze]

I appreciate the feedback and I can see from your signature that you have at least three r40 characters. On one hand this tells me your feedback is highly valid yet on the other it implies to me that, since you're already done with the grind you're forgetting just how painful it was.

Thank you.

However I think you may have missed or ignored my point.

It really does not seem to take very long when you are enjoying what it is that you are doing. While we would all seem to like to start at the top and move sideways, there is a good reason you start with 0 and move up until you reach the top. It is both fun and a learning experience that you would not ever have had you started at the end.

And really, it was fun for me on all 4 classes so the time flew by. (much faster than EQ or EQ2) If it were not both fun and a worthwhile learning experience I would have stopped at the first one.

Obviously opinions will vary, but my advice is to enjoy the ride, after all it is entertainment.

[MannSeastone]

P40s enjoy PvP in and of itself and even more so now that they are "competitive" as they could possibly be.

P40s enjoy frolicking in an uneven playing field. Many of us are not competition grade players and would suffer if our gear advantage was removed. I don't think it will ever be removed because games of pure skill are quickly abandoned by the losers.

MMOs are a genre where even the slow-witted and incompetent can experience success through perseverance. Rift requires the least perseverance of any MMO I've ever played, which I'm quite thankful for. Could the grind be shorter? Absolutely, but that's a selfish thing to say. There are plenty of other genres that offer opportunities for talented players to experience immediate success. Maybe we shouldn't despoil the last multiplayer refuge for bad players by making MMOs more focused on player skill. If warriors get nerfed again, Majorin is quitting, and we can't have that.

[Synovia]

I should say that I, personally, am not averse to such a scenario, but it does buck genre convention and, in a game like Rift where there is PvE vs. PvP bleedover, giving a 'fresh 50' easy access to PvP kit (the current 'starter' gear being more or less equivalent to T2 pieces, and that'll change with 1.9) may very well trivialize some of the early content in the game. The sort of position you're advocating for may require a redesign of the PvE vs. PvP gear paradigm before accessibility is made widely available.

If I can PvP for a week, get some crafted weapons, and put on a few hit/focus runes and be HK-ready (if at the low end of 'ready'), that potentially opens up another bag of worms. The Guild Wars I/II model, as presented, is certainly not a bad one, but that game has clearly marketed and positioned itself in a different way than Rift and most other MMORPGs (for better or worse). I consider myself a highly competitive, team-oriented PvP player, but GW1 failed to grab me and nothing in GW2 has grabbed me, either -- it can flatten the gear 'curve' all it wants, but if it's not interesting me, it doesn't matter.

Personally, I'd be happy if getting geared required a time and money investment, and maybe a little bit of talent (SPELLCRAFTING CALCULATORS GO), but that upsets the entire carrot picture and I would say it's evident that people want to chase after new gear (otherwise we wouldn't have seen as much of a clamour for P8 and new gear, back in the day, though we'd have seen some, because, Hammerknell weapons).



I actually don't, because I didn't play WoW. I skipped the launch because the murmurs I was getting weren't positive, and I was annoyed at the dropped ball on some pre-launch promises (that were the things I was really looking forward to), and though I did eventually play the trial, I had a sour PvP experience (due to terrible players -- my tolerance has since improved, obviously) and didn't buy in.

I do appreciate the summary, but none of what you've said convinces me that Rift has ever been in any position but one similar to the 'current' status you express -- you have access to the current 'season' (top rank of gear), and the two previous 'seasons' of gear. The only 'bubble' exists because fresh 50s are coming into level 50 with such garbage gear (because the drops from AP/CC are old P1/2-tier equivalent, at best) and need to slog through a bit of a grind to get that lowest set (unless they partook in PvP prior to hitting 50 and thus have some bankrolled favor).

Yes, there is a two season gap, but that gap is being narrowed in an upcoming patch as a result of a) improvements to the bolster system, b) a flattening of the stat range between the new lowest tier set and the new highest tier set, and c) cost reductions. Attempts are being made to keep the PvE/PvP paradigm while improving both accessibility of gear and durability of newer players.



Because the people that are still playing are the ones that don't give two ****s about gear or progression and just want to PvP.

Now take a step back and ask yourself two questions: a) what portion of the Rift community (and, tangentially, the MMO community) at large do these players represent; and, b) how many people have quit, advertised or otherwise, as a result of hitting the cap and getting 'bored' or 'having nothing to do'?

To your first point about PvP gear being used as a launch pad for PvE progression, I'm not all that opposed to this. The PvE gear of the tier you are in will always outshine any PvP gear you can muster up of that same tier. I remember when we were in GSB and our top DPS was a Rogue using mostly Nihilist (top tier) PvP gear. It didn't bother me then and it doesn't bother me now. However, it is worth pointing out that as new tiers of content have rolled in, and hit/focus caps have increased, the usefulness of PvP gear in PvE has gone down considerably. To jump into Infernal Dawn, it is impossible to simply slap on your PvP gear, replace a couple pieces and apply hit runes. You will never make the hit/focus cap of 420 unless you replace several pieces of the gear with pieces that yield hit/focus.

To your second point, the current system in WoW and that of Rift are very different. As I mentioned, getting completely decked out in the previous season's PvP gear is trivial and puts you at a point where you can be competitive against anyone whereas, in Rift, this is not the case.

To your last point, the sheer number of max rank players (or players who, quite obviously, are entirely decked out in top-tier PvP gear) I see in Warfronts leads me to believe that there are far more who PvP for the sake of PvP itself than you believe there to be. Using the example of sports, why do people even bother to play? Unless you are among the top 1% of performers, there is nothing material to be gained from your efforts. For 99% of us there will be no money to make or nothing of material gain to seek out yet we still play. Why? Because we enjoy it. Because it challenges us. For respect. For recognition. For any of the intangible rewards that come without a price tag and without material representation. I play both Baseball and Softball competitively in my regional division and there is nothing material for me to gain from these efforts yet the drive to hit a home run or pitch a no-hitter is enough to keep me coming to the ball park.

[Synovia]

Thank you.

However I think you may have missed or ignored my point.

It really does not seem to take very long when you are enjoying what it is that you are doing. While we would all seem to like to start at the top and move sideways, there is a good reason you start with 0 and move up until you reach the top. It is both fun and a learning experience that you would not ever have had you started at the end.

And really, it was fun for me on all 4 classes so the time flew by. (much faster than EQ or EQ2) If it were not both fun and a worthwhile learning experience I would have stopped at the first one.

Obviously opinions will vary, but my advice is to enjoy the ride, after all it is entertainment.

I apologize if you felt I ignored your point. That wasn't my intention so I'll address it directly here.

The truth from my perspective, and no doubt from the perspective of countless others I've spoken to in game, on the forums and in person, is that the PvP is NOT enjoyable until you reach a level at which you can be competitive. My Rogue is just now starting to get a taste of what it's like to be competitive in Warfronts. It has taken me months of work to get here given my raiding schedule and semi-casual playing schedule but I'm finally adorning a handful of Nihilist pieces and assorted HK relic and ID PvE gear. At 6.5K health and roughly 800 valor, I'm starting to actually enjoy PvP for the first time since I began and it has taken me months to get here. Should it have taken this long to get here? Well, that's the entire point of this thread if you ask me. My argument is that this is a video game we play for enjoyment and that if there is fun to be had, then why not make that fun more accessible? I work as an IT Consultant and for the past four weeks I have worked overtime to exceed my current client's expectations. However, now I'm to be told that if I want to enjoy myself outside of these hours in the video game I choose to play, I need to put in a minimum of 50.5 hours of joyless, grind beforehand?