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Thread: Revisiting Lingering Wounds - Healing Debuff Comparisons

  1. #46
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    Passive. LW requires a crit and no warrior us running around with 45% crit in pvp gear. The devs know this and it only makes you seem like a moron. Warriors attacks are melee based for the most part with a few ranged at 20 meters. Now munitions can be applied at ranged and does not have a timer. Give warriors a heal debuff they can spam at 30 meters and do damage We even then right?

    Heal debuffs relate to healing which is fine in pvp game You cannot look at heal debuffs without looking at overall healing, clerics, and chloro. Healing in pvp is fine currently. Adjustments have been made to healing and it is working out. If healing is fine please don't mess with heal debuffs.

    I know you mean well but you cannot take certain abilities and isolate them and then cry for nerfs and state they are overpowered. I can think of nothing worse for the game buy evident in every nerf thread on these forums.

  2. #47
    Ascendant Kyera's Avatar
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    Lot of bad in this thread, unfortunately. :/

    I'm fine with passive debuffs as long as they've got a low proc rate (FB/VM's 20% is fine) and can be purged/cleansed. LW has a higher rate (especially at the higher end of the gear brackets), isn't a buff, and cannot be cleansed. *shrug*

    Honestly I've always felt that the passives should be a lower delve than the actives, especially actives on cooldowns, but I've been fine with their current state so long as they can be purged/cleansed. The siphon is a non-issue for me since I don't find it's actually tangible healing. You can put it on LW if you want, so long as LW's proc chance caps at 20%, it's a purgeable buff, and it's cleansable. ;)

    Ajax -- The Necromancer gets a spammable 30% ST, but you're right, none are AoE and the rest have a CD.
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  3. #48
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    Finally,

    Balance means that warriors have high burst damage, CC, and heal debuffs. Balance is a fully geared warrior killing you in pvp. Accept it. There is nothing overpowered or broken about the warrior class.

    It is time to accept it and move on. Warriors have the same damage as ranged classes but limited to melee. They need gap closers and to hit you. Lol. Accept it. Considering the state of rogue sabs and /dom mages how can anyone complain about warriors. Is mage squirrel overpowered? Are Dom energy and mana drains overpowered? The unbiased answer is absolutely yes. Should they be nerfed?

    Warriors are just as effective as mages, rogues, and cleric in pvp. They are not even remotely overpowered in thr slightest Good pvp requires a strong warrior class For the first time in months you all are getting a taste of balance. Yes, a warrior can kill you now. This is a good thing. Trust me.

  4. #49
    Ascendant Kyera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Finally,

    Balance means that warriors have high burst damage, CC, and heal debuffs. Balance is a fully geared warrior killing you in pvp. Accept it. There is nothing overpowered or broken about the warrior class.

    It is time to accept it and move on. Warriors have the same damage as ranged classes but limited to melee. They need gap closers and to hit you. Lol. Accept it.
    You can keep repeating it hoping it's true, and make it seem like closing distances in this game is hard, but it's not.~
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  5. #50
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    What in the world. You cannot adjust heal debuffs without looking at overall healing. Healing is fine in pvp. You cannot even compare a melee based heal debuff like LW to rouges or mages. Fine. Give warriors a spamable and passive heal debuff they can apply at 30 meters? You all have no concept of balance. Cleanable? So when all my energy is drained by a /Dom is is cleansable?

    The devs have done a decent job with pvp balance. I am not sure you all even have a concept of balance. It is not nerfing everything around you so you cannot die. Lol.

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    I would like to see them all changed to be cleansable, and also that they apply smaller amounts but stack. Obviously the numbers would have to be worked out but I would like to see:

    VM: Reduces healing received by 2% per stack, siphons half of healing reduction. 25% chance of application, chance of application reduced based on number of targets in AOE attack. Debuff lasts 10 seconds.

    FB: Reduces Healing Received by 5% per stack - 50% chance to apply on crit. Debuff lasts 15 seconds

    LW: Reduces healing received by 5% per stack - 50% chance to apply on crit. Debuff lasts 15 seconds

    Both FB or LW should work only on attacks with melee weapons.

  7. #52
    Ascendant Kyera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    What in the world. You cannot adjust heal debuffs without looking at overall healing. Healing is fine in pvp. You cannot even compare a melee based heal debuff like LW to rouges or mages. Fine. Give warriors a spamable and passive heal debuff they can apply at 30 meters? You all have no concept of balance. Cleanable? So when all my energy is drained by a /Dom is is cleansable?

    The devs have done a decent job with pvp balance. I am not sure you all even have a concept of balance. It is not nerfing everything around you so you cannot die. Lol.
    Warriors can have a spammable, cleansable, purgeable passive heal debuff with a 20% proc rate that can be applied at 30 meters, sure.

    They've nerfed healing into the ground. Healing, in Rift, isn't good for keeping the 'average' player alive (yes, there are exceptions -- good players with good specs healing dps with a self-preservation instinct). At best it delays death. If that's what you want, that's fine, but that's what I hated about the initial healing pitch in Warhammer (and what I hated about healing in SWTOR).
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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyera View Post
    You can keep repeating it hoping it's true, and make it seem like closing distances in this game is hard, but it's not.~
    The ranked warfronts we play a pretty damn good. You have a Mage, warrior, and rogue tops in damage and KBs. It is not loopsided favoring one class. I die to rogues and mages all the time but it is fine. Sometimes I cannot even get in range to kill them. So should I demand rift walk have a 30 meter range?

    Yes, some elements of the game border on overpowered. There is really not a counter for a geared ranged dos group in the game. I am being honest with you.

    You all got decent balance. This is what it looks like. Warriors killing clerics, mages killing warriors, and etc. Balance is you dieing to a warrior. Don't jack up pvp. It is getting better.

    Honestly, warriors should have the same damage and abilities but more survivability because so dependent on healers due to being limited to melee. That is an honest discussion about balance.

    This thread is a joke.

  9. #54
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    The two 'problems' with warriors have historically been Riftwalk and Lingering Wounds. Every single 'overpowered' build (aside from the cheese**** 1v1 S/B builds) have revolved around the target accessibility and effectively doubling of dps provided by these two tools.

    If you honestly feel these two abilities are absolutely hunky dory in their current state, I don't know what to tell you. They've been problems from day one. This is giving me flashbacks to people trying to tell me that Ravage spam and Pierce Armor (edit: and the tactic, can't remember what it was called) were 'perfectly fine' because they were on melee classes. I certainly want to hear arguments from more terrible WE and Chosen-esque players.
    Last edited by Kyera; 06-08-2012 at 05:51 AM.
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyera View Post
    The two 'problems' with warriors have historically been Riftwalk and Lingering Wounds. Every single 'overpowered' build (aside from the cheese**** 1v1 S/B builds) have revolved around the target accessibility and effectively doubling of dps provided by these two tools.

    If you honestly feel these two abilities are absolutely hunky dory in their current state, I don't know what to tell you. They've been problems from day one. This is giving me flashbacks to people trying to tell me that Ravage spam and Pierce Armor (edit: and the tactic, can't remember what it was called) were 'perfectly fine' because they were on melee classes. I certainly want to hear arguments from more terrible WE and Chosen-esque players.
    Lol. Okay.

    Two problems with rogues are munitions and eradicate.

    Two problems with mages are squirrel and mana drain.

    Two problems with cab is heals and AOR damage.

    Nerfing rift walk would only make sense if ranged dps did significantly less damage then melee. Now they are the same. Saying it is unfair for a melee player to hit you as hard and for the sane frequency when the damage is the sand is stupid. The crux if this issue is that rogues want to use pve gear so are complaining. It is stupid.

    LW is fine in it's current state and part if the overall balance question to healing. It is applied in melee ranged. If it was applied at 30 meters and did not require a crit then would agree with you.

    I am telling you that you are wrong. I can't say this enough.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Lol. Okay.

    Two problems with rogues are munitions and eradicate.

    Two problems with mages are squirrel and mana drain.

    Two problems with cab is heals and AOR damage.
    VM hasn't been in since launch and hasn't been at the core of the most cried about builds (esp. in the current cycle). Eradicate hasn't been in since launch and hasn't been at the core of the most cried about builds (people cry about having to pay attention to buffs tho, and the MM complaints mostly foster around an inability to kite -- hmm). Mana drain has been nerfed several times since launch. Listing Cabalist as a problem is kind of laughable, especially Cabacar, but even if I'm conceding that, Justicar healing efficiency has been nerfed and Cabalist had a class rewrite, and neither have been in since launch (in the current form) or have been at the core of the most cried about builds.

    I'll give you Squirrel. ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Nerfing rift walk would only make sense if ranged dps did significantly less damage then melee. Now they are the same. Saying it is unfair for a melee player to hit you as hard and for the sane frequency when the damage is the sand is stupid. The crux if this issue is that rogues want to use pve gear so are complaining. It is stupid.
    The only things that come close to hitting me as hard (and as spikey) as 1.8-era Warriors are the rare Fulminate + CB combo and the rare SH + pre-queued insta BoD. The only things. Maybe because I don't sit around to let a mage chain Fireball me or w/e.

    I'm fine with 51 Champions punching my face off, because they get one closer (two with Leap), and they then have to employ other means to keep in range and/or counteract any attempts I make to kite. The problem with Riftwalk really isn't Riftwalk -- it's Planar Blade (plus windows for planar blade) refreshing Riftwalk when coupled with additional ranged gap closers -- ranged root, ranged snare (you do remember how Earth Burst works, I hope).

    It has sweet **** all to do with "rogues in PvE gear". For months people have whined about the ****ty build that is NB/RS, because you can't kite it and it has a passive (cleansable) debuff, and yet we're here saying a variant on that build that actually does some damage is a-okay. Trion wants to bump warrior damage output up because you have to be in melee to use it, but then offers a method to completely trivialize that requirement by giving a refresh-on-crit several-CC-breaking charge accessible in a build with several other closers. That's been the problem with every single Riftblade-centric build -- you can't ****ing get away from one that knows their ****, especially in a pitched battle where you don't have room to retain 30m distance by kiting in a straight line.

    Edit: P.S. What's the one viable hard counter to a Riftblade? Eradicate. Go figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    LW is fine in it's current state and part if the overall balance question to healing. It is applied in melee ranged. If it was applied at 30 meters and did not require a crit then would agree with you.
    LW has a higher application rate than VM/FB. It has a higher AoE application rate than VM/FB. With Proper Timing, application can be guaranteed on multiple targets. It cannot be purged, unlike VM/FB. It cannot be cleansed, unlike VM/FB. It can be applied by ranged attacks, just like VM/FB, though the warrior has a far more limited selection. It also does not siphon, like VM/FB.

    If you want to make it work just like VM/FB (20% static application rate, reduced application rate on AoE, cleansable, purgeable buff, siphons 20% of healing received by target), be my ****ing guest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    I am telling you that you are wrong. I can't say this enough.
    Remember that part where I said "you can keep repeating things hoping they come true, but they won't"? That also applies here.
    Last edited by Kyera; 06-08-2012 at 06:47 AM.
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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post
    The problem with reducing the % without reducing every other healing debuff in the game, especially other passive debuffs, is that warriors will be in a gimped state in terms of handling healing. Competitive players will opt for something like NB for melee instead, considering that the warrior healing debuff does not stack with other debuffs.
    That sounds fine to me. In WAR you ran warriors for their damage, guard, and health, leaving the debuffing to the squishier classes. Nobody runs NB in premades now: moving the healer-killer debuffs to the healer-killer specs would probably give them an incentive to do that.

    There is no reason at all for any debuff that exists in the game to not be cleansable. Dot, Heal Debuff or otherwise.
    If everything is cleansable than nothing important is. DPS outnumber healers by at least 2:1 and 2/3 of them, the pyros and rogues, have shorter GCDs. Imagine if everything important you were trying to cleanse was buried under a slew of weak filler abilities that do damage on application, have maybe 1s left on their timer, and a single DPS can apply them 50% faster than you can cleanse them. This is what happens every time some noob (or brilliant tactician, haven't decided which) runs Reaver in PvP.

    The cleanse situation is already terrible. It's bad enough that certain stacking debuffs like Combust require multiple cleanses to get rid of and certain abilities, like squirrel, apply multiple cleansable debuffs (squirrel + controlled opportunity). When the expansion comes out they need to buff cleansing a lot - the extra points everyone has plus the new soul abilities will make it even more difficult to stay up on cleanses.

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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaros View Post
    Haha, I'm just joking. What I would want ideally is something like this

    Vampiric Shot : 30m range
    20 energy
    15s CD

    The Rogue shoots an enchanted arrow at the opponent, reducing the healing they receive by 50% for 5 seconds. Cannot be used in a macro.
    It's almost like....they could put eradicate on a longer cool down and give it slightly added functionality. Or something.
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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyera View Post
    This is giving me flashbacks to people trying to tell me that Ravage spam and Pierce Armor (edit: and the tactic, can't remember what it was called) were 'perfectly fine' because they were on melee classes. I certainly want to hear arguments from more terrible WE and Chosen-esque players.
    Sharpened Edge was the glorious, broken tactic that applied a 75% armor debuff on finishers, that stacked with all flat armor debuffs. Oh, I remember the good old days of running the channeled finisher on S/B Ironbreakers and just watching them melt under single or duo melee DPS.

    That was definitely more broken than Lingering Wounds, but I'd say Riftwalk + Planar Blade is more outrageous than that. At least Witch Elves had to utilize terrible Warhammer stealth to try and get on targets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyera View Post
    The only things that come close to hitting me as hard (and as spikey) as 1.8-era Warriors are the rare Fulminate + CB combo and the rare SH + pre-queued insta BoD. The only things. Maybe because I don't sit around to let a mage chain Fireball me or w/e.

    I'm fine with 51 Champions punching my face off, because they get one closer (two with Leap), and they then have to employ other means to keep in range and/or counteract any attempts I make to kite. The problem with Riftwalk really isn't Riftwalk -- it's Planar Blade (plus windows for planar blade) refreshing Riftwalk when coupled with additional ranged gap closers -- ranged root, ranged snare (you do remember how Earth Burst works, I hope).

    It has sweet **** all to do with "rogues in PvE gear". For months people have whined about the ****ty build that is NB/RS, because you can't kite it and it has a passive (cleansable) debuff, and yet we're here saying a variant on that build that actually does some damage is a-okay. Trion wants to bump warrior damage output up because you have to be in melee to use it, but then offers a method to completely trivialize that requirement by giving a refresh-on-crit several-CC-breaking charge accessible in a build with several other closers. That's been the problem with every single Riftblade-centric build -- you can't ****ing get away from one that knows their ****, especially in a pitched battle where you don't have room to retain 30m distance by kiting in a straight line.

    Edit: P.S. What's the one viable hard counter to a Riftblade? Eradicate. Go figure.
    Pray tell how a 51 champ is going to prevent a competent range opponent that is wearing appropriate (valor) gear from being kited, esp if he blows his rush/leap as his initial closer. Key difference between warrior and range class is the warrior has to; a) get in melee range, b) remain in melee range. Out of melee range and warrior wont do jack squat for the most part. Range class abilities typically work at both melee and non-melee range. There are lots of different cc that various classes have to get some range on warrior; stuns, slows, squirrel, kb, your own leaps, etc. Leap sucks bad due to its targeting mechanic, and even more so once battle starts as said range should be on the move/kiting. Yes, a 51 champ might get a kill over a range here and there, but the odds heavily favor a competent range opponent.

    Hint: do not need to maintain 30m during kiting. Sure it is preferred, but your main goal is to stay out of melee range as much as possible. Numerous times i have used my port to re-acquire distance only to have them bounce right away or slow/kb/etc me in some fashion.

    Obviously RB is so heavily used mainly due to the mobility/melee issue warriors must deal with. There is also the elemental damage aspect of it and bit of range, but mobility (PB/RW) is far and away the main reason it is so common. PB offers only a possibility of more frequent ports since need you still need a crit hit, and the chances of that occurring drop dramatically if no one in melee range since its few range attacks have 20m and all have a cooldown of some sort.

    Contrary to the picture you paint, RB is not immune to being kited and does not guarantee victory or trivialize it in favor of the warrior. If anything thing, it helps balance things since w/o it the advantage shifts to range, big time. IMO they need better mobility in other dps warrior souls so they are not so dependent on RB to deal with the mobility issue. One rush is typically not gonna cut it against decently geared range opponent.

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