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Thread: A Quality of Life Improvement for Everyone: Additions to the Queue System

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    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    Default A Quality of Life Improvement for Everyone: Additions to the Queue System

    A lot of issues have been ironed out in the past few PTS tests, so I figured as long as Trion wants to improve PVP, why not keep going?

    One of the biggest problems with RIFT PVP is the queue system itself. In the past and currently, the queue system has had a quantity versus quality setup. The queues pop fast, it's rare for me to solo queue and take longer than 30 seconds. This is good, but the problem is that almost every round I ever get into is a faceroll for one team or the other. Maybe one out of five rounds actually produces some competition, and even then it's fairly sparse. But when you do get that intense round which by the grace of god somehow managed to be balanced, it's the most fun experience you'll ever have playing RIFT. Close rounds of any Warfront become hectic, everyone's running around doing whatever they can to win, and even if you do lose, it's a lot more fun than facerolling. I think that many PVPers would agree with me when I say I'd rather lose 999-1000 than win 1000-0. That's enough backstory, I guess.

    The idea I'm suggesting is to use the mercenary system to set up an algorithm that equalizes team composition, taking into account both rank, and class. I'm not going to delve into semantics, but this is far from impossible. Ideally, in a match between two teams with the exact same composition and rank layout, the only variable is player skill, which is exactly the type of match everyone wants. When typing up this thread, I only had to queue for one Warfront to get a perfect example of how a blowout match could turn into a much more fun and balanced Warfront with a couple additions to the queue system.

    This was the Guardian team
    This was the Defiant team

    The Guardian team had 11 Rogues, 2 Mages, 1 Cleric and 1 Warrior.
    The Defiant team had 5 Clerics, 2 Warriors, 2 Mages, and 6 Rogues.

    Just by looking at the scoreboard, you can see it's obvious who is winning. That's right: The team with a balanced composition! While there are many variables involved in Warfronts, it's fair to say that if the Clerics and Rogues were more spread around, this Warfront could've gone a lot differently. I've sorted it by healing to make it easier to see, but the #3 healer on the Defiant team has 10k more healing than the #1 healer on the Guardian team, and while DPS is fairly even, the Defiants still have more damage and kills, due mostly to higher ranking players and a more varied team comp. Again, though, it's easy to see how that Warfront could've been altered. The Defiants had three Clerics, two of which were R40, and we had one who was wearing PVE gear. That alone means the Defiants would've held a monopoly on healing, which isn't maybe the key to victory, but it sure as hell helps. We still could've outDPSed them to victory, but with 11 Rogues, that's significantly harder. Evening out the number of Rogues on the Guardian side, trading some of the geared Rogues on the Defiant side for the undergeared ones on the Guardian side, and splitting the number of Clerics could've made this an extremely competitive Warfront. But due to a faulty queue system, it became an absolute faceroll.

    A Warfront like the above isn't a rarity in the slightest sense of the word, as anyone who PVPs will tell you. It's so unlikely to get two teams with balanced composition, but the potential is there. It's pivotal around the merc system, but I see absolutely no obstacles in developing an algorithm that would turn rounds like the above one into something much more competitive, just by switching around a few players. If I'm wrong, by all means tell me why, but I'm not seeing it. We can rebuild the queue system. We have the technology.

    Not only that, but an improvement to the queue system, in the humble mind of this R40, would make newer players much more likely to PVP. The complaints I often see on the forums of being instagibbed or destroyed by higher ranking players are mostly due to the person in question having a team that was just as undergeared. If your teams are competitive and balanced, everyone has to put in their part and play their best to win. If you're facerolling as a R10, chances are you're being carried by a premade or a bunch of R40s. That's not fun for anyone, usually even the R40s. If you're being facerolled as a R10, it's obviously not fun for you, and there's nothing you can do to prevent it, generally due to team composition, involving both rank and class. But if it's a competitive Warfront, you matter just as much as the next guy. If you play better than the R10 mage on the other side, that might very well be the tipping point that wins you the match. It brings out the best in everyone, new players or not.

    And on a final note for that, if this were to be seriously considered for implementation, I would recommend throwing out the 'ranked matches' entirely out of the queue algorithm. The reason is simple: for ranked matches, the algorithm is there, but the supplies aren't. Getting a completely balanced ranked Warfront is notoriously unlikely, and it would conflict with the algorithm I'm suggesting. For my ideas, the supplies are there--because they're there inherently, they're just split unevenly--but the algorithm isn't. And that's what we need, which is what Trion can do.

    And while I'm at it, I might as well throw in another idea I've been mulling around for awhile: Rematches.
    This is really a simple concept, I'm not sure why it doesn't exist yet. It'd go hand in hand with the queue improvements, but the premise is the following.

    At the end of a Warfront, there would be a button to 'Opt for Rematch'. If enough players on both side opt for one, a rematch starts using those players. Some kinks could be worked out in case the teams get imbalanced, but I think this could be a great way to improve the queue system as well. You finally come across one of those awesome competitive rounds that everyone enjoys? You can do it again, maybe even this time in a different Warfront. I don't see any downsides to this either, and I don't foresee it being abusable to farm a team, as long as it was made so both teams needed to opt for a rematch. This would also make premade v. premade matches easier, but that's a whole different thread.

    TL;DR: Balance Warfront teams queues based on rank and class. Remove ranked Warfronts. Add a rematch button.

    /discuss!
    Last edited by Zaros; 05-26-2012 at 12:48 PM.
    ~Quiescent

  2. #2
    Ascendant Trisian's Avatar
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    The queuing system is what it is, but only because of how the game has been run since launch.

    Rematching on the other hand I would love to see (similar to left 4 dead2's system where it's a vote proces). Regardless if people leave the WF or vote for the rematch, everyone involved should get a follow up pop up that offers to bring them back into a new WF for a rematch match IF the vote passes."

    Trion needs to get over this hump where giving players the options, does not = needless spam. We will put up with a few extra prompts if we know our time is being put to good use rather than wasted on blind invites to steamroll disasters.
    Last edited by Trisian; 05-26-2012 at 12:54 PM.

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    Champion
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    Rematch button? Absolutely!

    If they can balance teams as you're suggesting without making que teams noticeably longer, I don't know how anyone could disagree. It won't make every WF equal particularly since it won't be measuring by raid gear and contrary to what some people suggest, gear isn't everything. However, it's much better than what they currently have and a large step in the right direction.
    Last edited by rennlc; 05-26-2012 at 12:55 PM.

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    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trisian View Post
    The queuing system is what it is, but only because of how the game has been run since launch.
    I see no reason to change it, then O_o
    Quote Originally Posted by rennlc View Post
    Rematch button? Absolutely!

    If they can balance teams as you're suggesting without making que teams noticeably longer, I don't know how anyone could disagree. It won't make every WF equal particularly since it won't be measuring by raid gear and contrary to what some people suggest, gear isn't everything. However, it's much better than what they currently have and a large step in the right direction.
    I don't see the queue times becoming too much longer. With the system I'm proposing, we have the elements, the algorithm just isn't there. With ranked matches, the algorithm is there but we don't have the elements. And Trion can make an algorithm.
    Last edited by Zaros; 05-26-2012 at 01:01 PM.
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    Plane Walker Lycrios's Avatar
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    I honestly wonder why they haven't tried implementing a way of spreading out classes between groups ever since they added the mercenary system. It would seem a logical step to try and balance out teams.
    "In the land of the terribles, the mediocre is king."

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    Ascendant Trisian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaros View Post
    I see no reason to change it, then O_o
    Was I being too subtle? What I said was sarcasm for "The system sucks because that's the way they've always done it".

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    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trisian View Post
    Was I being too subtle? What I said was sarcasm for "The system sucks because that's the way they've always done it".
    I know, and I responded with "I see no reason to change it, then".
    ~Quiescent

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    Ascendant Trisian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaros View Post
    I know, and I responded with "I see no reason to change it, then".
    Well you never know who to trust here...

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    Ascendant Misun's Avatar
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    This is a fantastic idea and I'm not quite sure why they have not implemented this already?

    It would sure encourage a lot of people to make the pvp grind, if it was a little bit more balanced. More people means more fun for all
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    Ascendant Charlice's Avatar
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    What you are suggesting Z, is basically what EQ2 do with their battleground queues.

    In EQ2 there is no Freeport vs Qeynos, it has ALWAYS been red vs blue. So, they try as much as possible (depends I imagine, on how quickly players take the invite) to balance tanks and healers. (dps not so much)

    Trion introduced Mercs, I don't understand why they can't better balance the classes in warfronts.

    Honestly, I know this game is WoW ex player heavy, but, Rift could do a lot worse than copying a lot from EQ2 battlegrounds.

    A lot of EQ2's functionality would probably make players here cry a bit too much here though.
    They also have a lobby where you wait for a match to pop. In that lobby you can create a pre-made. Not just from your server, but from all servers. Yes that's right. Pre-mades are not treated like the devils child there, and players don't cry anywhere near even half as much.


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    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    I've always thought an in game team shuffle before a game starts would be a nice feature. But I also think a /callvote system would be nice. It served it's purpose well all in all when implemented decently. Some of the older callvote systems were ab usable but, games that do them now have improved them a bit.

    And by abuse able I mean I used to be able to call a vote in quake and then run around to 3 computers hitting /reconnect on all them and effectively dumping in about 12 yes votes in 30 seconds. You can't really do that these days Rarely did I ever see games that were so chock full of unreasonable people that the callvote system was heavily abused. I only recall it being greatly abused when a person could rapidly reconnect and cast multiple yes votes for their own computer. It's why I think those games had better composition. Can shuffle teams, can leave teams and join other teams before the game has started. Teams have size limits or the game beginning is dependent on *players* readying up, so that you can start games with even numbers. Really a well made callvote system you can't loophole too much does a lot of good composition and regulating work coding and mechanics just can't put a finger on. But that is something I don't see going in this game...it would.....just seem to out of the games realm. Interchangable WF teams before a game begins, readying up when things are even instead of hoping the countdown is long enough, and being able to toss utterly troll like detrimental players. Best competition ladders were ran by players, servers ran by players - when arena was really awesome and some pure arena badassery, the game itself was pretty much in the players full control. This thing is with rift the control is so bottlenecked. You take the que - and you can leave the WF if you want. That is the limit of player control in a WF. Oh and a afk vote system that anyone with a half brain can circumvent if they are actually making an effort to.

    I'm up for balancing techniques without much expense of que time. But I think the games that had the greatest balance also in hand gave the players most control over their acute games. That is pretty void of this game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlice View Post
    A lot of EQ2's functionality would probably make players here cry a bit too much here though.
    They also have a lobby where you wait for a match to pop. In that lobby you can create a pre-made. Not just from your server, but from all servers. Yes that's right. Pre-mades are not treated like the devils child there, and players don't cry anywhere near even half as much.

    ^^^ Saw this after typing my response. Exactly as I said. The more power you give the players regarding parameters of their acute games....

    EQ2 is the devils world. Where a PuG on a pve server said "oh this is gonna be a rough game, we got a nagafen guild group against us. Oh and EQ2 let you que your entire 15 - 20 man guild. People loved it and had no conflict with GUILD premades into ques. They dealt with it and sometimes won even! Crazy. Of course the same game where the community supports and has no major qualm with twinks. It's loved and players get behind it. Players leveling through BG's don't hate it either. They join 'em or pass 'em. I guess I come off as disgruntled when I come from a game where people adapted and supported things, to one where people /STOMP FEET THIS IS BOGUS.
    Last edited by Violacea; 05-26-2012 at 03:07 PM.
    New round up of some high rank matches
    Chun-Li*E.Honda*Evil Ryu
    Abel*Ibuki*Dhalsim
    Gouken*Zangief*Ryu

  12. #12
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaros View Post

    TL;DR: Balance Warfront teams queues based on rank and class. Remove ranked Warfronts. Add a rematch button.

    /discuss!
    Doh edit limit. Just finished this post finally. gave it an extra like. This in essence is a pre-game shuffle I described of the players given, which will probably yield better games than an attempt at evening the game at the level of dispensing que windows. At least it can hit a little closer. Inevitably the stairs will be so out of line at times you might just get really whack games. But that's happened in every online game I've played since I started. Heck, it even happens in sports. Sometimes....blowouts just happen. Nothing you can do.

    Any Given Warfront

    ps. CHARLICE HAS EXCEEDED MAXIMUM INBOX MESSAGES.

    pps. Isn't the correct term, reached, not exceeded? I say let her keep exceeding.
    Last edited by Violacea; 05-26-2012 at 03:14 PM.
    New round up of some high rank matches
    Chun-Li*E.Honda*Evil Ryu
    Abel*Ibuki*Dhalsim
    Gouken*Zangief*Ryu

  13. #13
    Shadowlander War Monk's Avatar
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    A very good idea. Had a similar thought growing in the back of my mind. Something along the lines of keeping the numbers of each class within a set range, say 20%, between the two sides.

  14. #14
    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    Glad to see all the good feedback
    Remember, if you like the idea, like the post.
    ~Quiescent

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    Ascendant Trisian's Avatar
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    Well Trion didn't like your post because it got swept off to suggestion land aka purgatory.

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