To grind or not to grind

[Kyera]

Only in two situations have I ever felt like I was "grinding":

One was when I was grinding my warrior to P4 to get Subdue ASAP. The other was when I was grinding my rogue from P5 to P6 so I could experiment with Theft of Thought.

The rest of the time I just earned the prestige and favour as it went along and played when I wanted to. I think I took less time to 'get bored' or burn out than my friends did as a result, but I still did get bored.

[Grimt]

That's brilliant. It's true for more than Rift as well.

No it isn't ... not in the least. I can think of tons of real life examples where people value the journey more than the objective and vice versa. Some people restore cars and never drive them, while others simply want to race them and couldn't care less where they came from. Some people play PvP for the stages of accomplishment, while others play PvP only for the challenge of the end game matches themselves. Both are totally valid and disparaging either one is unwarranted.

I was trying to turn the topic of gear progression away from these kinds of unnecessary value judgments, but clearly that isn't going to happen as long as we have folks like you and a few others posting. I'm rather sorry now that I bothered.

[rennlc]

Only in two situations have I ever felt like I was "grinding":

One was when I was grinding my warrior to P4 to get Subdue ASAP. The other was when I was grinding my rogue from P5 to P6 so I could experiment with Theft of Thought.

The rest of the time I just earned the prestige and favour as it went along and played when I wanted to. I think I took less time to 'get bored' or burn out than my friends did as a result, but I still did get bored.

Yeah, I remember rank 1-2 felt more like a grind than doing ranks 5-6 despite needing about 1/9th of the prestige to acquire that rank. It's just tougher when you're new, haven't found a role you like that's more suitable for your current current, and still have that "are we there yet?" kind of mentality. The people who enjoy PvP and casual competition should continue to have few problems with the gear "grind".

[Violacea]

No. Speaking as if you have walked the shoes of something you haven't to someone who has, is disparaging and unwanted. Deciding not to do something is fine. If you decide you don't want to do it, don't act like you actually did or realize what it is like to do it. Because it's just that, your imagination. We can all hypothesize. Actual experience isn't a hypothesis though.

I can imagine what it's like to have a baby. I am a man. Any women think I can get a pretty good idea by just taking into consideration all the things involved? You cannot replace experience. There is nothing better. Your imagining and hypothesizing is probably rank 2 or 3 down from the #1. But the #1 is experience and unless you have it to match, nothing equals it when speaking on behalf of it effectively. It will come down to what you think verse what they know.

[Misun]

I can imagine what it's like to have a baby.

It hurts. A lot.

[Violacea]

I thought I could imagine what it was like to break a bone. I even saw peoples reactions, their cries and the casts. When I broke my arm, my perception changed though. Damn experience changing my projected imaginative ideas of what it's like to experience something I haven't. ugh.

[Misun]

I thought I could imagine what it was like to break a bone. I even saw peoples reactions, their cries and the casts. When I broke my arm, my perception changed though. Damn experience changing my projected imaginative ideas of what it's like to experience something I haven't. ugh.

It changes you forever, that's for sure lol. I really never knew what pain was, until I had a baby.

[rennlc]

No it isn't ... not in the least. I can think of tons of real life examples where people value the journey more than the objective and vice versa. Some people restore cars and never drive them, while others simply want to race them and couldn't care less where they came from. Some people play PvP for the stages of accomplishment, while others play PvP only for the challenge of the end game matches themselves. Both are totally valid and disparaging either one is unwarranted.

I was trying to turn the topic of gear progression away from these kinds of unnecessary value judgments, but clearly that isn't going to happen as long as we have folks like you and a few others posting. I'm rather sorry now that I bothered.

But that's assuming the positive aspects of each ideal. If Violacea (and myself as well for agreeing) is disparaging anyone, it's those who do not enjoy the journey nor seek completion and are particularly vocal about their displeasure in that faulty process.

[Flimble]

Or I just don't accept them as flaws. Or, maybe, you can't speak on behalf of something you have not done. You can't not do it and kick back and act like you got the same experience and knowledge as someone who actually did. Maybe this game just isn't for everyone. There is nothing flawed about it. It is a system, you either accept it or you don't. To be flawed it would have to not work. I fail to see how it doesn't work. Losing doesn't mean it's not working either. Nor does getting decimated and stomped.

I've got two r40s, getting to r40 hasn't changed my view from when I was about r3 (under the old r1-r8 system), it really isn't complicated enough to require the full experience, the flaws are abundantly obvious after relatively little play, I didn't need to be r40 to know facerolling low ranks would be boring, nor did I need to be r40 to know unbalanced sides is not fun, nor did I need to get tor40 to know is was not fun being stomped by high ranks, even on my ezmode rogue (the unbalanced sides issues make this worse).

It is flawed because it is meant to be fun, even at r40 it fails quite often in that regard due to the unbalanced sides issue and that wiping out low ranks is dull, unchallenging PvP, still I am sure it appeals to Pvers and noobs, but apparently they are minority given how the number of people PvPing in this game has plummeted over time.

As for"pros" as you put it, you'll find most left the game long ago, as this game does not provide challenging competitive PvP.

[rennlc]

I've got two r40s, getting to r40 hasn't changed my view from when I was about r3 (under the old r1-r8 system), it really isn't complicated enough to require the full experience, the flaws are abundantly obvious after relatively little play, I didn't need to be r40 to know facerolling low ranks would be boring, nor did I need to be r40 to know unbalanced sides is not fun, nor did I need to get tor40 to know is was not fun being stomped by high ranks, even on my ezmode rogue (the unbalanced sides issues make this worse).

It is flawed because it is meant to be fun, even at r40 it fails quite often in that regard due to the unbalanced sides issue and that wiping out low ranks is dull, unchallenging PvP, still I am sure it appeals to Pvers and noobs, but apparently they are minority given how the number of people PvPing in this game has plummeted over time.

As for"pros" as you put it, you'll find most left the game long ago, as this game does not provide challenging competitive PvP.

Even if people were given the best PvP gear out the gate, they would still get their butts kicked by the more experienced and skillful players like any other game. At a certain point, players just have to put up or shut up. They've got to offer their own suggestions to their issues, gather what support they can, see what happens, and if nothing does, accept that certain aspects of the game may remain as they are or try try again. If balancing warfronts is of interest to you, please come up with suggestions and support any suggestions that are currently being offered if they're too your liking. Zaros has a thread about balancing teams by class and rank for warfront ques and I have a thread about implementing a third team into BG as well as other warfronts that you and those that agree with you should check out.

[Brioche]

Excuse me while I laugh so hard at Vio-lol-cea's "I'm a special little snowflake cuz I hit r40" defense.

Good for you, really. I'd put a gold star on your papers if it'd make you feel more loved, but considering how you're only interested on how you enjoy the game and not how to make it enjoyable for everyone, it's not much to wonder why you're forever alone.

Selfish.

[spaceboots]

...considering how you're only interested on how you enjoy the game and not how to make it enjoyable for everyone, it's not much to wonder why you're forever alone.

Selfish.

I would argue it's selfish to look at someone else's achievements and envy them for yourself.

[jca]

I fall squarely into the op's second camp. This is exactly why I started playing 30-39 with a level locked toon. The following are my opinions, take 'em or leave 'em, but I have given more than a little thought as to why level 50 pvp sucks so badly.

Balance - As long as there is such a massive disparity between the relative power of r1's vs. r40's class balance is impossible to achieve. The perfect adjustments for r40 vs r40 often are completely fubar'd when it comes to r40 vs r1. The difference is stats/power is just too great to balance both scenarios.

Competitive game play - I think most pvp'ers (at least those who aren't mouth breathers) would agree that the best games are the close ones. The closer in overall power teams have the better chance for this to happen. Fully geared toons should be the majority in wf's and IMO opinion, the gearing up process should be a brief apprenticeship, not a lengthy grind.

Prestige and Gating - Frankly, the prestige system is the biggest hindrance to my first and second points. If there was a way to provide gating based on merit, I'd be all for it. That's not the case though. Gating of the top level gear is based solely on time played. That is the worst possible mechanism for that and obtaining r40 is not an achievement in any form other than having the perseverance to grind out a broken system. No matter what Trion tacks onto the pvp side of the game, level 50 pvp will never be right until the prestige system is either ditched or completely reworked.

Time vs Reward - IMO "work" is not a term that should be applied to a game. "Work" is for real-life such as paying the mortgage, raising the kids right, getting your degree, etc. The time vs reward equation is way off in level 50 pvp. The exact time number are not all that important other than the general spirit of what I'm suggesting but IMO one play sessions ( ~4 hrs) should result in top-level gear for one slot. It's in the interest of competitive pvp to get people to R40 as quickly as possible.

I can see two primary groups having objections to these. The first are pvp'ers who've already done the R40 grind, the second being pve'ers that see pvp gear as a means to step right into raiding without having finished every level of raids prior to current content. In both cases, I say so what? Get over it.

[kronous]

just normalize all pvp gear ffs

[Laban of C O]

Wait wait wait! This thread is outdated, I just had raiders tell me that getting to P50 is not a grind and we're just going to get free awesome gear for no work. I'm sorry, but we need to close this thread now. I'm being cereal guys.