10-19 Warfront Bracket, Twinks, and Gear - An Experiment

[Charlice]

True, but if you craft yourself, and keep your craft level up with your adventure level you can still be geared well enough to be competitive.

My little toon experiment on a Euro shard is an outfitter/runecrafter. The only augments I used on his gear are the ones I got from crafting dailies. The essences he has, I got from adventuring. He was rolled during 'glass beads' so he has some world event stuff. He doesn't have the 6 slot sigil but I saved up enough planarite to get a mmm 4 or 5 slot. (Oh tip for anyone that doesn't have the phone app. get it. Profit.)

I just rolled him to see how I'd go with no help from a level 50 toon. He did fine. He died, he revived he made a difference to the outcome. I started him in there from level 11. (my little dwaf bard lool)
That's all I expect, to feel somewhat competitive without what I class as 'cheating'.

I'm not the best PvP'er, he didn't have the best gear, but, he was competitive. Sure better gear is I guess better, but again, spec plays a major part in most outcomes along with player 'lolskill'.

[Kyera]

Good effort and analysis.

However, although I suppose this is irrelevant to the specific "complaint" you're referencing, if I were looking into gear and my intention was not to XP lock, I would not be looking at expense, so much as at convenience. I would undoubtedly ask myself the question, "Is it worth it to go out of my normal path to get these gear upgrades?"

Aside from games where armor/weapon crafting has been completely eliminated as a worthwhile source, or just plain doesn't exist (oh, Warhammer), I can't really think of any where crafted gear is out of the 'normal path'. Furthermore, comparables do exist in the form of dungeon and world drops, planarite gear, and world event gear -- this 'kit' uses some of each, albeit not as much because I wanted to actually get into the PvP without grinding solely for gear (since the point I want to make is that you don't need to grind for gear) -- assuming a player is partaking in all facets of the game (as is often suggested by people at the high end in response to complaints that PvE weapons are PvP BiS trololo), they should acquire suitable pieces as they make the trip. Trion's path clearly pushes players in all directions -- even crafting, I feel, as you get quests regarding gathering skills at the first post-starter-zone hub you hit.

But yes, the major complaint is that you need to be in the BEST gear to compete, and the BEST gear is crafted + extremely expensive Flawless augments (they're quite expensive or time consuming to make, since they require 20h cooldown crafted mats that are on the AH for between 11-20p, depending on the mat and augment), which might be reasonable in cost to a 50 who is partaking in the economy but not so much to someone on their first toon (or an alt they rolled while their main is still leveling), so cost certainly is a factor I wanted to keep in mind when putting this together. That's more or less the entire point of this analysis.

If money truly is no issue, you can throw Pure augments in and easily keep this gear until the mid-late 20s, when you could either craft a better set or could have pulled in enough replacement pieces to start swapping them out. This would also allow you to stay on a desired path without branching out to other facets of the game, if you wanted to, say, tunnel vision your way through PvP or dungeons (or, as I did while leveling my cleric to 49, Rifting).

Of course, 10-15 still pretty much sucks, because you don't have access to dungeons for good quest rewards/drops, and the planarite gear is level 12, and so forth, but from 15-19 you should be able to be quite competitive on a budget.

[Kyera]

I wanted to edit something in before the edit timer expired and, of course, I missed it. Five minutes is way too short. :3

I mostly agree with you on the speed of leveling thing, at least through the first couple of brackets. Assuming you're getting a fair bit of rest XP and you're questing/pulling efficiently (e.g. with a spec that doesn't have a ton of downtime), and ESPECIALLY if you're queuing dungeons with a tank spec (you'll get a lot of pops), you will plow through 1-19 and possibly 20-29 at an extraordinary speed. I found myself frequently outleveling quests on my alts, and that was before I was getting XP pots as vet awards -- hell, my first character didn't even need to quest in Stillmoor, and my alts didn't even get to Shimmersand. Rift might be the fastest game I've leveled in (esp. solo -- 5 hr Animist PLs + an afternoon getting Champ XP + artifacts in DAoC don't count).

From the 30-39 to 40-49 the pace dips a bit and I don't think it's at all unreasonable to get adequately geared. I was mostly grinding Rifts and dungeons, using Vet XP pots, and I had all my "twinking" gear, which is what I wore the first two nights I PvP'd in the bracket, by 45. I wasn't trying to get gear in the 30-39 -- my intent was to get to 40-49 to catch up with Topo -- so I don't really know how it would have been, since I hit a run of zone events and just invasion PL'd myself with Cabacar.

Either way, yeah, maybe they do need to adjust the system to fit leveling speed (since I doubt adjusting leveling speed would be well received).

[jaal]

And a new player to the game is going to do all this?

Most players will just take gear as they come (i know i did when i was levelling my first character). There were no complaints about low level PvP before twinks arrived and now they are there are 5 threads a day, FOR A REASON.

People are simply not being considerate of new players, low level PvP was a place for new players to learn and it was fun because the gear was always so equal. Not everyplayer wants to take 6 hours out to be competitive in the WF bracket.

[tevikolady]

And a new player to the game is going to do all this?

Most players will just take gear as they come (i know i did when i was levelling my first character). There were no complaints about low level PvP before twinks arrived and now they are there are 5 threads a day, FOR A REASON.

People are simply not being considerate of new players, low level PvP was a place for new players to learn and it was fun because the gear was always so equal. Not everyplayer wants to take 6 hours out to be competitive in the WF bracket.

There is a difference between gearing up as you go and being lazy.

*When I was new* I jumped right into crafting, as did my friend and between us, we always had level appropriate gear/jewelry and focuses (for me) at all level ranges.

[Snowzz]

Better than what you posted, heres some other various dungeon and open world gear that is top gear.
Weapons:
Ragnoth's Shadow Ripper - Drops off Ragnoth the Despoiler in IT(High Drop Rate)
Fallen Warden's Dress Sword - Drops off Endless Wraith, Putrid Ravager, Risen Corpse in IT(Best in Slot)
Pugilist's Bow of the Sinister - Drop off Random Creatures(Best in Slot)

Armor:
Tricksters Cinch - Drops off Trickster Maelow in RotF(Best in Slot)
Mead-Sticky Handwraps - Drops off Battlemaster Atrophinius in RotF(Best in Slot)
Death Whisper Treads - Drops off Caor Ashstone in IT(Best in Slot)
Sapper's Hood of the Sinister - Drops off Random Creatures(Best in Slot)

[Kyera]

And a new player to the game is going to do all this?

What, getting gear? Yes, as they go. This is showing that you don't need top tier gear to be competitive -- reasonable substitutes can be acquired as you go through the brackets, ESPECIALLY once you're past the first bracket, since the augments begin to make up a smaller percentage of the item's stats and dungeon/world/planarite/PvP drops begin to get significantly better than the garbage crafted green kit.

Most players will just take gear as they come (i know i did when i was levelling my first character). There were no complaints about low level PvP before twinks arrived and now they are there are 5 threads a day, FOR A REASON.

Let's do an analysis: how many of these threads or posts are actually by new players, and how many of them are by existing players either White Knighting on behalf of some unspecified new player or shedding tears about how they apparently need to spend a ton of money and extra time to be competitive.

The point of this wondrous exercise was to show that you don't need to spend a boatload of money (or 'extra' time) to finish atop or compete with fully geared twinks. Yes, you have to put a tiny amount of effort into keeping your gear current, but a) it's not expensive and b) it's not time consuming.

I mean, maybe this is again one of those core philosophical differences. If new players aren't interested in putting the effort in, why are they getting involved in a competitive game type fighting against other players? I firmly believe that if you're going to be partaking in a competitive game type, especially when you're competing directly against other players (and all involved clearly want to win), you should take the time to research it (even if, as in the case for me with new shooters, that research comes in the form of getting stomped the first round or two while you learn a new map). I don't care for any system where the game carries a player that doesn't at least put in some effort, and the guy in the 30-39 bracket, who has had ample time to get geared, yet has empty gear slots, outdated gear, and class-inappropriate weapons equipped clearly doesn't care to put in any effort.

If you don't feel that "trying" or "preparing" should be a requirement, we won't see eye to eye.

People are simply not being considerate of new players, low level PvP was a place for new players to learn and it was fun because the gear was always so equal. Not everyplayer wants to take 6 hours out to be competitive in the WF bracket.

Not every player needs to take six hours out to be competitive in the WF bracket. Do you honestly think it takes six hours above and beyond normal progression to find someone to craft armor, weapons, and runes for you, or to cruise the auction house? Honestly?

[MitsuMarty]

And a new player to the game is going to do all this?

Most players will just take gear as they come (i know i did when i was levelling my first character). There were no complaints about low level PvP before twinks arrived and now they are there are 5 threads a day, FOR A REASON.

People are simply not being considerate of new players, low level PvP was a place for new players to learn and it was fun because the gear was always so equal. Not everyplayer wants to take 6 hours out to be competitive in the WF bracket.

A new player to the game should be crafting right away, that's what I and everyone I know did. But, either way, a new player is going to have a difficult time no matter what. They won't be used to the specs, how to play them, how to properly gear for their spec, etc. Honestly, by the time they get used to what spec to play and how to properly play it in a pvp setting. They should be on board with what gear to get and where (since they'll have to read up on pvp specs, they'll probably come across multiple other guides like I did anyways).

EDIT: Also I want to note, I'm not a veteran player myself. Yesterday I received my "6 month veteran" items in the mail. And within these 6 months of playing, I have a few twinks, somewhat geared out (mostly greens but they're good greens for my level). A 50, and a level 48 that I'll be doing the 1-40(soon 50) grind with. In wow, some arena teams played "forever" to get a really good rating and learn how to counter the fotm teams. This game really has helped, whether you see it or not, the new player as much as it can. Even as much as giving them specs to play so they can learn the trees properly without having to guess what trees do what.

[Enthusiast]

What, getting gear? Yes, as they go. This is showing that you don't need top tier gear to be competitive -- reasonable substitutes can be acquired as you go through the brackets, ESPECIALLY once you're past the first bracket, since the augments begin to make up a smaller percentage of the item's stats and dungeon/world/planarite/PvP drops begin to get significantly better than the garbage crafted green kit.

Let's do an analysis: how many of these threads or posts are actually by new players, and how many of them are by existing players either White Knighting on behalf of some unspecified new player or shedding tears about how they apparently need to spend a ton of money and extra time to be competitive.

The point of this wondrous exercise was to show that you don't need to spend a boatload of money (or 'extra' time) to finish atop or compete with fully geared twinks. Yes, you have to put a tiny amount of effort into keeping your gear current, but a) it's not expensive and b) it's not time consuming.

I mean, maybe this is again one of those core philosophical differences. If new players aren't interested in putting the effort in, why are they getting involved in a competitive game type fighting against other players? I firmly believe that if you're going to be partaking in a competitive game type, especially when you're competing directly against other players (and all involved clearly want to win), you should take the time to research it (even if, as in the case for me with new shooters, that research comes in the form of getting stomped the first round or two while you learn a new map). I don't care for any system where the game carries a player that doesn't at least put in some effort, and the guy in the 30-39 bracket, who has had ample time to get geared, yet has empty gear slots, outdated gear, and class-inappropriate weapons equipped clearly doesn't care to put in any effort.

If you don't feel that "trying" or "preparing" should be a requirement, we won't see eye to eye.

Not every player needs to take six hours out to be competitive in the WF bracket. Do you honestly think it takes six hours above and beyond normal progression to find someone to craft armor, weapons, and runes for you, or to cruise the auction house? Honestly?

There is one thread, for sure, by a new player, me. If you weren't paying attention I was ignored by two posters simply for stating my views. I believe it was a form of insult or something, but then again, I'm not completely sure what their motivations in ignoring me were, to be honest. Maybe they just didn't like what I was saying.

I appreciate the effort in making this thread. I will likely dig it up and use it as a reference if I decide to make a rogue. It will give me a good jumping off point. It displays an in-depth knowledge of the game and what somebody could do with said knowledge if they had the desire to.

I said it in the other thread, while I'm new to this game, I'm not new to the min/max style of gearing/enchants (or augments w/e). I've played end game pvp in WoW, on multiple characters, so I know all about what you are describing in the op.

As an example, in WoW there was crafted pvp gear that got you in the door (competitively speaking). It was relatively easy to purchase this gear from the AH or have it crafted for you by a guildie. It took very little effort to buy/make/find the cheaper versions of BiS enchants for your gear. As you gained honor (pvp currency) you could replace your entry level gear with upgraded pvp pieces and pvp enchants. As time progressed and my gear became the best possible, I ended up becoming a genuine stickler for getting the maximum performance from my secondary stats, I mean, we are talking about trimming hundredths of a percent in hit and then controlling the cascade effect on other secondaries.

Point is, this was end game pvp. What you are proposing is an end game mentality to what is obviously not end game for everybody participating. Since Trion has made little indication that they will seperate ques, this is a problem. A classic "bringing a knife to a gun fight" situation.

Now you say that 6 hours is a completely inaccurate measure of the time it took to gear your 19 rogue. Maybe you are right. Then again you also have the accumulated experience of making several twinks as well as playing end game. It could take more than a few hours for some players based on their level of knowledge alone. It took around 2 minutes for me just to read the op. Tick tock, time invested is already starting to accumulate. Figuring out what to get and when to get it while leveling isn't as simple as coming to these forums and finding out what the best gear is for a level x9 of a specific bracket. Yes its going to require EXTRA effort. If you can refute me on this, please by all means, enlighten me. Also, knowing and acquiring are two seperate things. So beyond extra effort there is luck involved as well. And that's just to be competitive.

I think your efforts are a little misguided. Instead of trying to defend twinks, maybe you should be trying to educate others on end game instead. It certainly seems like you have a broad knowledge of pvp in Rift. Of course, what you do is up to you.

[Kyera]

I think your efforts are a little misguided. Instead of trying to defend twinks, maybe you should be trying to educate others on end game instead. It certainly seems like you have a broad knowledge of pvp in Rift. Of course, what you do is up to you.

My efforts were to dispel misconceptions about the required gear level (and costs) associated with competing with twinks. The desire to perform this 'experiment' stemmed from being active in a variety of threads where people continued to make erroneous claims or generalizations about the entire process; there was one post, in particular, by a guy saying he'd need to spend "hundreds of plat" and continually regear to compete with twinks on his way to 50.

I spent more time, honestly, typing up the details of getting geared than actually getting geared, and then I queued eleven warfronts and took screenshots of the leaderboard. This specific experiment didn't take a ton of time, which is fortunate since two days after I posted it Trion decided to troll me by nerfing XP lock.

As for educating others on end-game, I've done that at great length in the last two MMOs I invested a huge chunk of time in (DAoC and Warhammer), to no avail. Since I'm okay with nerfs to my class and take a big picture, group vs. group, zerg vs. zerg view of the balance picture, my views are decidedly unpopular with just about everyone, and I honestly spend more time scrolling through posts calling me a series of expletives and saying I have no idea what I'm doing/talking about than seeing appreciative posts. (In many cases, I've had these people challenge me to duels or 1v1s to *** about their superiority only to stomp them into the ground -- and by my own admission I am terrible at dueling, so that says something.)

Consider the amount of time and effort I've put into trying to educate the populace regarding a subset of the game in which many posters have admitted to not being well versed. Rational arguments, empirical (and anecdotal) data, an analysis are consistently dismissed by people who don't twink and who can't even be bothered to read a thread.

Now imagine if I took a similarly unpopular stance regarding the end-game, where more people are involved, and where people actually do think they know about the subject in question. I can assure you it's significantly more frustrating for me to deal with, and I feel compelled to spend even more time trying to justify a position against idiotic arguments. I've done it in two previous games, and I've held many unpopular positions on this board that people had wave away. Given that the Rift community tunnel visions a few specific posters, who established a reptuation early on, for advice (and, given that this is primarily a PvE game, most of it is PvE-related), I'm not particularly compelled to try and guide people.

If people ask for advice, or if there's a thread where I feel I can give it, I will, but I'm certainly not going to attempt to educate people who feel they already have their diploma.

As for the preceding paragraph, I'll probably respond in another post, since I accidentally deleted my reply. :3

[Scioned]

This is and outstanding post. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this.

[Kyera]

Now you say that 6 hours is a completely inaccurate measure of the time it took to gear your 19 rogue. Maybe you are right. Then again you also have the accumulated experience of making several twinks as well as playing end game. It could take more than a few hours for some players based on their level of knowledge alone. It took around 2 minutes for me just to read the op. Tick tock, time invested is already starting to accumulate. Figuring out what to get and when to get it while leveling isn't as simple as coming to these forums and finding out what the best gear is for a level x9 of a specific bracket. Yes its going to require EXTRA effort. If you can refute me on this, please by all means, enlighten me. Also, knowing and acquiring are two seperate things. So beyond extra effort there is luck involved as well. And that's just to be competitive.

Six hours, above and beyond the normal time investment, is a completely inaccurate measure of the time it takes to gear a twink.

You're correct that I have the accumulated experience of making several twinks as well as playing in the end game (edit: keep in mind my first twink was rolled only a month ago), but I'd say general PvP (shooter and MMO) experience was a far more valuable tool, as I was compelled to do my research even way back with my first character out of beta (a warrior, for reference). I spent plenty of time playing around with character builders and looking through sub-50 dungeon loot tables on my way up the ladder to make sure I was well equipped and not wasting time unnecessarily. I have no doubt this is an uncommon player attitude, but if my philosophy hasn't been clear to this point, it's clearly one that revolves around rewarding players that put in time and effort to educate themselves and prepare.

This might be an end-game attitude, but I honestly don't think it's an unreasonable one to have for PvP -- at least beyond the very first bracket, where people are getting their feet wet. PvE is, arguably, competitive in the end game, as people are championing for world firsts and other shenanigans I really don't care about. As you're leveling, there's no competitive element to it -- you just have to be good enough to get by, even if it takes longer or you're doing it less efficiently, and everyone is happy since they all win. PvP, by contrast, is competitive (or, imo, should be) from the drop of the puck -- there are winners, and there are losers, and if you're not doing your due diligence to give yourself a better chance to win, you can bet your *** someone else is doing it.

You can argue this might be an unhealthy philosophy, or that it shouldn't apply to low level PvP, but again, this is where we might have divergent beliefs that won't ever converge on a common ground.

Gearing the twink itself also didn't require a ton of contemplation or information collection, aside from putting together the item and cost list. I wrote down (in Notepad) the stats of all of the relevant pieces of Copper gear and weapons, and then compared them to the weapons and items I had in my inventory. If the ones in my inventory were better, I used those; if not, I used crafted with affordable/inexpensive augments. Yes, you might need a bit of luck -- as I had with my ranged weapon -- but reasonble substitutes are definitely available. I mean, this wasn't a search for BiS items or a post providing an X9 BiS list to guide new players, though those guides DO exist -- the original post was giving an example of an inexpensive, quickly acquired, twink-competitive set of gear, and backing up claims of performance with some level of evidence. Hunting for and gearing up in BiS will certainly be more time consuming, especially for a first character. I definitely can't refute that.

Will a player need to know about crafted gear or augments? Yes. Might it take some effort to research appropriate game systems? Yes, research they will need to do at some point in their Rift "career". That might require doing a little Googling or asking some people. So, no, I cannot refute that extra effort is required. Will it take six hours? I sure as hell hope not. It's not as though we're talking about a game like Dark Age of Camelot where you have to fiddle with a spellcrafting calculator for days and play with gems to craft the most efficient and effective template as possible. You have limited selection, meaning it takes limited effort and consideration.

I am a firm believer that players, new or otherwise, playing an MMO or otherwise, should at least give themselves a basic education on key systems pertaining to the game, through independent research or by asking questions. That's probably why I've been "defending twinks" -- because most of the people who ARE complaining could probably put the time they are spending complaining towards educating themselves on how to actually be competitive.

[Scioned]

And a new player to the game is going to do all this?

Most players will just take gear as they come (i know i did when i was levelling my first character). There were no complaints about low level PvP before twinks arrived and now they are there are 5 threads a day, FOR A REASON.

People are simply not being considerate of new players, low level PvP was a place for new players to learn and it was fun because the gear was always so equal. Not everyplayer wants to take 6 hours out to be competitive in the WF bracket.

Why does every other QQ'r think that a brand new player should be on even emotely equal ground as a veteran player? The gear has never been "so equal". There have always been elitist who min/max and faceroll people. I'm sorry you new people have to learn to play and get gear. Geezus, that's the whole point of the friggin game.