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Thread: The Proactive PvP Thread

  1. #46
    Shield of Telara jaal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    No game is fun for a new player unless you are a natural born pro. Day 1 on the ball-court your going to get smoked unless you are Jordan. Early stages of 50 you are going to get smoked, luckily you have to less rely on skill and more on putting in the effort to earn some gear. There is just no way to split player bases up into experienced and non. Games are based on progression/learning curves. The progression curve is fine and learning curve seems decent. It's fun if your goal is to hit top rank, no need to fix this. There is no such thing as a fix that makes a fresh 50 a boss.

    I have incentive to keep playing, do you want the one that earns me stuff or the one that boils down to leisure time fun?

    These aren't problems, they are you not liking the game disguised in the form of a tally list of game problems. Those are not game problems.
    Umm yes they are, what kind of games do you play? I play rugby, if you join our club you will start in the 3rd team where you will learn about the game and how to play. Then as you get better and learn the rules you will work your way up tp the seconds and then to the firsts.

    If new players got put straight on the first team they would quickly leave, get injured, the team would get made at them for not knowing the rules, they would be completely out their depth. Trion has lost any sense of this, even low level warfronts are silled with twinks. While playes leveling their alts can quickly gear them up, new players (which you NEED to cater for) will have a miserable time and not play. Then at level 50 its the same thing, but instead of 6 hours to gear your player its a lot more.

    Going back to the rugby analogy the people in the team are all of the same skill and play other teams of the same skill. And no matter what skill level you are at, you still have fun. When a team is getting beaten all the time players soon start losing interest, no one wants to give up their Saturday to lose. But equally teams who are winning all the time without a challenge disband aswel, at first it is good fun but i soon gets boring, there is no competition and people start not turning up to training, missing matches etc.

    End game PvP just puts any old team together and it is never competitive because you are either getting destroyed or not facing a challenge. and its the Challenge that keeps people playing. Think about why people will play sport all week long? for the competitiveness and to be the best. Why players play the same 5 maps on a FPS for 6 hours straight. Because its fair game and competitive... In Rift i am yet to experience this. Look at this video for Christs sake, that is not competitive and even that it is fun while you are winning, it wont draw you back to keep playing. Hence why people get to r40 then just stop playing PvP.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQk1UQwYS7w

  2. #47
    Ascendant Hartzekar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaal View Post
    Problems:

    -Not fun for new 50's
    -No incentives for r40's to keep playing
    So, you want more gear and more grind. That in itself is a problem. PvP players get bored being maxed out, then complain for new gear. We get new gear, then the fresh 50s complain because it's such a long grind. Just PvP to, ya know, have fun. If there's a carrot on stick you're gonna lose fresh 50s because they have such a long way to go to be competitive. The ride as it is is perfect, but if you guys keep asking for more gear and more ranks it won't help.
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  3. #48
    Ascendant Hartzekar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flimble View Post
    But on the other hand:

    - Someone with an ID weapon (and if they are something that doesn't get hit much like a MM or ganky assassin build, then bits of pve gear with crystal), plus 60k + PA hits way harder than an r6 did.

    - If you start from day 1, everyone else is in the same boat, you are surrounded by other r1.
    To the first one, they hit less hard relatively speaking. R1 guy with 4.5k HP and zero valor, running a DPS spec against a fully decked out R6 with 7k HP and a bonus 35% damage reduction is no contest. A R12 who is now away from bolstering and to his own devices (much like the R1. He had no time from dinging to gear up safely. The R12 has plenty of time to get the whole T1 PvP set) has 6.5k HP and 40-45% damage reduction against a R40 with 8k HP and 55% damage reduction is a pretty fair fight. Now the R40 is probably going to win, but at least if the R12 is specced to counter whoever he's fighting he could win.

    The the second one, yes and that' only achieved when the game first starts. Back then there were premades in GSB gear lolfarming people who weren't R6 yet. It was MUCH worse then. This went on for about 3 patches if I remember right. So yeah, the R6 were still farming fresh 50s, and R4s for that matter. They all had the same gear until R5/6 when they used their accumulated favor to START buying gear. The current system allows fresh 50s 12 ranks to see what it's like; get accustomed to it. Then they can start building a spec because they will have a full set of gear by the time they leave bolstering zone. It's extremely fresh-50 friendly.
    Piras@Faeblight
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  4. #49
    Shield of Telara jaal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartzekar View Post
    So, you want more gear and more grind. That in itself is a problem. PvP players get bored being maxed out, then complain for new gear. We get new gear, then the fresh 50s complain because it's such a long grind.
    I think its a huge problem that when I said "no incentive for r40's to keep playing" you thought that meant grinding gear. The incentive to play PvP shouldn't just be gear, it should be because it is so competitive players don't want to stop playing.

    I think a better idea would be an r40 only wf where players get a ranking on their performance. So players play to get their rating up, not just for gear... Just not sure there is enough active r40's to implement this

  5. #50
    Plane Walker Grimt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartzekar View Post
    So, you want more gear and more grind.
    He never said that. He wants more competitive play ... not more gear.

  6. #51
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    Problem:
    In PVP everyone wants to win, but ONE has to lose.

    Solution:
    Let everyone win on THEIR computer. (thats how Diablo3 is doing it, u CANT lose in that game)
    Last edited by Antigonos; 05-20-2012 at 08:23 AM.

  7. #52
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    I think a major step to encourage pvp would be to actually fix the classes that are broken. Balance is hard to come by and will always be a patch by patch basis until they find a good balance with gear progression.....but the class i play for instance, Mage, has a total of only 3-4 builds that are worth using at all in PVP. 4 classes that are completely useless except for some very low tree abilities, and zero synergy between them. What i get bored with in PVP is no lack of variety for my class. I can change my healing build a little, but it still plays exactly the same. Same thing with DPS build...

    Rogues and Clerics seem to have quite a few different possibilities that still are successful, Warriors got a boost to a few of theirs, but it seems that the only one's seeing play now are the OP rift storm specs. Mages are still stuck with pyro for all dps and chloro for high heal numbers but low effect.

    Also T2 PA would be a nice thing....maybe mix it with favor requirements so the PA requirements aren't so steep for those who really just like to PVP.

  8. #53
    Ascendant Trisian's Avatar
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    My proactive idea for the thread is "PvP Mentoring".

    Rank 40 players should be able to lend a percentage of their valor to a lower ranked target helping them come up to the cap, and further populate R40 wfs to reduce queue time. If the rank 40 player is a genuine pvp player who's acting in the best interest of the game, they'll be a tad more squishy but "skill and experience" should make up for the modest decrease in valor. This also gives the mentored player a reasonable chance to take down a p40 with their inferior gear by not needing to hit harder, but the target taking more circumstantial damage. Why circumstantial and not direct? Because like I said, a skilled and experienced player won't put them into situations where they are under direct fire if they are busy mentoring.

    In exchange for their sacrifice, the mentoring R40s will help populate higher ranked WFs helping keep unmentored lower ranks from being thrown into higher ranked matched, queue times could see a nice decrease, and for the icing on the cake, A mentor should boost his or her trainee's prestige gains so it helps them rank up faster, thus proactively contributing to the addition of fresh blood in competitive end game pvp.

  9. #54
    Ascendant Trisian's Avatar
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    Jesus did they shorten the edit timer?

    Need to clarify:

    Mentoring is a reward for maxxed rank players only to bestow upon other players. Hell, you could charge people if you wanted, that's part of a MMO's "charm". 1 trainee per mentor. A trainee and mentor should not need to be in the same WF but they must both be logged on, and the trainee having accepted the mentor's boost. A mentor boost grants the trainee valor up to the cap, grants them a 10% prestige bonus, and makes them look like a r40 for queuing purposes in exchange for putting a 25% valor debuff on the mentor regardless of their current valor level. Either player can break cancel mentoring at any time, placing a 30 minute debuff on the trainee before they can accept another mentor's offer to help. Void where prohibited. lol
    Last edited by Trisian; 05-20-2012 at 09:52 AM.

  10. #55
    Shield of Telara jaal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trisian View Post
    My proactive idea for the thread is "PvP Mentoring".
    Atleast someone got the idea of a "Proactive" PvP thread.

  11. #56
    Ascendant Hartzekar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaal View Post
    I think its a huge problem that when I said "no incentive for r40's to keep playing" you thought that meant grinding gear. The incentive to play PvP shouldn't just be gear, it should be because it is so competitive players don't want to stop playing.

    I think a better idea would be an r40 only wf where players get a ranking on their performance. So players play to get their rating up, not just for gear... Just not sure there is enough active r40's to implement this
    Competitive PvP is something the PLAYERS have to do, not Trion. You have to make it yourself, not go into a PuG WF and expect a competitive match every time. Get on your shard forums and organize dueling sessions. Form a premade and talk to other people, have Premade vs. Premade WFs. Conquests are coming out in 1.9, that'll be great for premades. Trion implemented PvP rifts. No one does them. Why? Because they don't give decent rewards. Sadly, if there is no carrot people will get mad. The tools for competitive PvP are in place, you have to use them.


    Also, they implemented that. It's called leaderboards.
    Piras@Faeblight
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  12. #57
    Ascendant Trisian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaal View Post
    Atleast someone got the idea of a "Proactive" PvP thread.
    Thank you. While I'm here I do try to help but I admit I can be damn cranky at times because of the mood this game puts you in after playing it for too long.

    For new/casual players: You see all this potential, and wonder how it's so badly broken.
    For established/dedicated players: You love how deep the end game is, but wonder why you never see any new faces.
    Last edited by Trisian; 05-20-2012 at 10:11 AM.

  13. #58
    Plane Walker Grimt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartzekar View Post
    Trion implemented PvP rifts. No one does them. Why? Because they don't give decent rewards. .

    Nobody does PvP rifts because they are incredibly mindless and uninteresting. If they were fun people would do them even without other rewards, but they aren't ... it's that simple.

  14. #59
    Ascendant Hartzekar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimt View Post
    Nobody does PvP rifts because they are incredibly mindless and uninteresting. If they were fun people would do them even without other rewards, but they aren't ... it's that simple.
    If you get a raid of Defiants against a raid of Guardians, it's epic. Planning ambushes, coordinating target priority, and fighting for pride is great fun.
    Piras@Faeblight
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  15. #60
    Ascendant Trisian's Avatar
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    My proactive solution for PvP rifts: Make them queues like the LFD

    PvP Rifts can be fun and interesting if we think outside the box. In my version of a pvp rift, a group of 5 to 20 players queue, selecting the roles of Tank, Healer, and DPS. Only a few players will be chosen for the first 2 roles and the rest assigned to DPS. When your queue is ready, the game notifies the players via popup that their pvp rift has begun. If it's just a small group, NPCs fill in the first few stages of the rift but if a full group of 20 queues, then it takes a chunk of the DPS players at first.

    This helps make it feel more like a Rift that players are use to, because the early stages should be eaiser, and starting off with all dps and no healers or tanks should not be too hard of a task for other players to pick off and progress through. Catching on yet? That's right... you're the NPCs, you're summoned through the rift during the appropriate stage you're needed, and players in the open world are what's needed to stop you. While a pvp rift is open, everyone that has queued and locked themselves into it gains ticks of prestige and coin. Even if they already participated and died or have not been summoned yet. The longer players allow your pvp rift to remain in the world, the more your queue/group gains. Nobody needs to queue to stop you, just a brass pair and the will to face you.

    As the stages progress, it calls forth more players from the queue, like a coach summoning better players from his roster to deal with the threat. There's no loss to the queuers from active players killing your buddies and progressing through your pvp rift, it's all about preventing you from keeping it open and farming those points. (omg I just hinted at realm pride) When players are summoned to be "bosses" they are bolstered to provide a challenge to those opposing your pvp rift. Eventually the Rift gets closed providing nice bonuses for the attackers, and hopefully the defenders were coordinated to fend them off long enough to earn a substantial chunk of change themselves and make it worth-while to do it again.

    Obviously I'm just scratching the surface but it has a ton of potential.
    Last edited by Trisian; 05-20-2012 at 10:59 AM.

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