Twinks: An analogy.

[tevikolady]

Anyway, something positive to add to this thread.

This was one of the most fun warfronts I have had in a long, long time. At the end of the match, each side was yelling " GG!"..it was so dang fun.

Attachment 7596

We lost by a single point, but man that match was a blast!

Lower level pvp can be a lot of fun, if you take the time to prepare your character. (it doesn't take much)

I had a game like that once! RIght before the defiants won (funny how it was the defiants than won mine too *heheheheh*) it was 998 to 997..dunno where they eeked the three points to win and we only got two..but who cares! IT WAS FUN AS HECK

[Misun]

I had a game like that once! RIght before the defiants won (funny how it was the defiants than won mine too *heheheheh*) it was 998 to 997..dunno where they eeked the three points to win and we only got two..but who cares! IT WAS FUN AS HECK

I hope to have more like that one!

[Enthusiast]

As for why we have "leveling" brackets (why are we calling them "leveling" brackets, btw)... well, I assume it's because they figured a nine level range was a reasonable limitation to avoid huge power gulfs without dividing the population into brackets so small that pops never occurred, and they wanted people to have a taste of instanced PvP before they get to the end game.

First, I meant pro-twink as in "for twinking". Second, purples are almost exclusively the best gear given the same ilevel, since you took issue with the simple way I described it, let it be known that I DO KNOW that purples may not always be the best option due to a difference in ilevel/stats and/or special modifiers.

I seem to recall the reason that WoW introduced experience gain in pvp was so that people who wanted to level that way could. Rift is similar to WoW, so since there is experience gain in pvp I figured the reasoning is the same. Unless they come out and say otherwise I have to assume that this is the case.

[Enthusiast]

RECAP: the pro-twink community has said that anybody can take the time and get geared. It's not very hard, you just have to come to these forums, do a little research and play the game like they do. Some have said it might only take one day's work to get geared if boosted by a higher level alt or friends.

The argument against twinking is that a low level/undergeared toon has essentially no chance against a twinked out toon. If a player decided to take the twink solution by stopping xp and gearing up just to stand a chance, what then is the point in having xp on/leveling brackets in the first place?

One possible solution is an improved bolstering system that would go farther by handicapping higher levels in a bracket. The logistics for this could be as simple as capping stats in the middle of the bracket, say x4 or x5, then bolstering and handicapping to taste. It's been argued that this would be as close as you will get to balanced pvp.

The pro-twinks say they do not like this idea at all. They argue that they deserve the advantage over the lower levels since they invested time in their toon. No handicap, they say.

This is where we are at.

I would like to propose a hypothetical. Let's say Trion has 2 choices to deal with twinks.

The first, as has been suggested in a different topic, is to ban xp off players from pvp. No need for them to say anything other than "we have heard what the community has said and feel that twinking gives a player an unfair advantage over another player who is geared through normal progression. Therefore we are locking out xp-off players from pvp."

Done deal. Twinking dies.

The second, as has been suggested in this topic, is to improve the bolstering system by also handicapping higher levels in a bracket. This would require more work from Trion. The twinks wouldn't be happy but they will still be able to keep their toons and play with them. They would still be able to marginalize appropriate level pve content but when they enter pvp their gear advantage would be essentially negated.

Trion works it out. Twinking lives, sort of, but its mainly just to show off the pretty colors.

One thing that Trion could consider is that with a balanced pvp system in place the potential for additional revenue could skyrocket. I've only been lurking these forums for a few weeks but every time pvp balance is questioned GW2 is brought up. I won't go any further, this is solely for Trion's consideration.

[ShalarLight]

RECAP: the pro-twink community has said that anybody can take the time and get geared. It's not very hard, you just have to come to these forums, do a little research and play the game like they do. Some have said it might only take one day's work to get geared if boosted by a higher level alt or friends.

The argument against twinking is that a low level/undergeared toon has essentially no chance against a twinked out toon. If a player decided to take the twink solution by stopping xp and gearing up just to stand a chance, what then is the point in having xp on/leveling brackets in the first place?

Ok actually to recap: Twinking is almost no different than playing the game normally, except twinks decide to stop in a level bracket for awhile, but ,by and large,in no way uses different mechanics than doing some quests, doing some dungeons, and or buying some pvp with favor as you earn it, and most people could have almost the same level of gear before they out level the bracket, just by actually doing stuff to get gear while you level and not just solo grind mobs.

The argument against twinks is basically everyone is at a pretty fair place due to the bolstering system already in place and the "twink" gear not being all that better than gear you get from doing dungeons and puzzles. And the gear that is better can be bought directly from the auction house for very reasonable prices most times. But you dont care about all that, dont care that basically these players did some dungeons, and now want to pvp. And in no way went to some special place in Rift in order to be dubbed "twink", they just play the game, same as you.

Then lets talk about those options that you list as you r only possible options, they are both terrible, lack insight and make you seem very shallow. Basically the options are, anyone that kills you needs to be nerfed by trion. not the class, not the gear, that player needs to be nerfed, because he beat you, and they either need to be nerfed by being taken out of pvp all together if you are around, or at least be severly handicapped so you dont need to develop even a reasonable amoutn of recognition and adeptness in the game.

Got it, and no thanks, you really couldnt be more wrong.

[tevikolady]

I would like to propose a hypothetical. Let's say Trion has 2 choices to deal with twinks.

The first, as has been suggested in a different topic, is to ban xp off players from pvp. No need for them to say anything other than "we have heard what the community has said and feel that twinking gives a player an unfair advantage over another player who is geared through normal progression. Therefore we are locking out xp-off players from pvp."

.

Again, we come back to this.

EXPLAIN WHERE THE GEAR DISPARITY LIES!

Trion will NOT say this, I am willing to bet all teh remaining plat(gold?) on my twink that they won't. Because, all the gear twinks have (*sighs* aside from grandfathered twinks, which aren't that hard to take down either) is because ANYONE CAN GET THE SAME GEAR.

There is a wall around here, I think slamming my head against it will be more effective than trying to present a point to you.

I have called Sariina, and Hugatree (whom I actually enjoyed a few decent back and forths with after asking her to 'rise to the occassion') She at least tried her hand on it, gave her observations of how she felt after twinking.

I honestly challenge you to try it. Not to 'faceroll newbs' but to gear up and detail in length just where the gear disparity exists. I challenge you to /inspect a few of you fellow teammates and see just what kind of gear they are touting, and see what kind of gear the twinks are touting.

You don't have to go out there and kill the 'underdogs' go after twinks. That was my base mentality. Kill the twinks. Just go try it (IN *THIS* GAME) and come back and enlighten us on just where the gear disparity exists.

I truly want to know what twinks have that 'makes them super duper facerollers.'

[Misun]

Ok, it would be like this:

Say I am a brand new level 50 in crap gear (outdated stuff 10 levels or more below my actual level.)

I've got missing essences in my sigil, I haven't learned my class very well..because I refused to check out my class forums for spec ideas and tips.

So then I ask a big raiding guild to take me to Hammerknell. I get offended when they tell me to improve my gear, essences and learn my class. I don't think it's fair.

I don't seem to understand why the entire raid can't carry me? After all, I'm paying 15 bucks a month to play the game, amirite?

PVP is no different. If a player chooses not to get at least level appropriate gear/sigil/essences etc...what that player is telling the rest of the team is "carry me"

You do not need a higher level friend to help you get gear. That is false.

The planar gear is perfectly acceptable to wear (as long as it's for the appropriate level)..in fact that's what the majority of twinks wear, with some dungeon gear and crafted gear to fill in the missing slots.

We make sure that the gear has runes (easily obtained via the AH).

It's up to you to gear your character and no one else...and players should not be held back or "handicapped" because you don't feel like making an effort.

Quested gear sucks. There, I said it. Most of it is complete crap. You want the planar gear, which is very easy to get.

[tevikolady]

[edit]

It's ok to not like twinks, but to offer suggestions when you don't know the first thing about twinking IN RIFT is counter to creative and suggestive problem solving. Not willing to accept 6 people telling you that gear is only a problem if you are not gearing up yourself is a subtle tactic for telling you to 'get some gear'. Some people have been not quite so sutble.

I've challenged you to try your hand at twinking. It doesn't have to be on your main. Roll up an alt, on a seperate server, with no level 50 support, and prove to yourself that you can, or cannot twink out. Try a few warfront, make notes and detail, in depth, just where the gear disparity lies (if there is one). I promise you, if there truly is a gear issue, and you find it and present it to *us* and the Trion DEV's, it will get dealt with, but just saying that there is one, without proof is like saying you saw the Loch Ness Monster.

Noone is going to believe you without proof.

[Hugatree]

Way to derail yet another thread suggesting Twinking is garbage.

How many of these have to pop up in a week before they finally address the bads and their gear dominance? Seriously, it's becoming a joke.

[Enthusiast]

[edit]

It's ok to not like twinks, but to offer suggestions when you don't know the first thing about twinking IN RIFT is counter to creative and suggestive problem solving. Not willing to accept 6 people telling you that gear is only a problem if you are not gearing up yourself is a subtle tactic for telling you to 'get some gear'. Some people have been not quite so sutble.

I've challenged you to try your hand at twinking. It doesn't have to be on your main. Roll up an alt, on a seperate server, with no level 50 support, and prove to yourself that you can, or cannot twink out. Try a few warfront, make notes and detail, in depth, just where the gear disparity lies (if there is one). I promise you, if there truly is a gear issue, and you find it and present it to *us* and the Trion DEV's, it will get dealt with, but just saying that there is one, without proof is like saying you saw the Loch Ness Monster.

Noone is going to believe you without proof.

No thanks, it is an empty challenge that does little for your argument. I've already gone on record stating that I've leveled several toons to 20 during my trial. You can find all the proof you need yourself, que into a warfront at level 10, 11, 12, 13 or 14.

Maybe you need to focus more on what I'm saying instead of what you think I'm implying. There is a potential solution in an already existing system.

Where are the creative solutions that twinks provide?

The only solution, and argument, pro-twinks have is to do what they do. Time and time again they've pointed out that gear is the answer. They can't or won't wrap their heads around the fact that this has two major ramifications: gear disparity and a shift in the population of participating levels towards x9. This makes leveling through pvp an unbalanced mess.

@ Misun- This is a discussion about twinks in leveling brackets. Bringing level 50's into it does nothing for your argument. See the above paragraph if you are confused.

[Misun]

No thanks, it is an empty challenge that does little for your argument. I've already gone on record stating that I've leveled several toons to 20 during my trial. You can find all the proof you need yourself, que into a warfront at level 10, 11, 12, 13 or 14.

Maybe you need to focus more on what I'm saying instead of what you think I'm implying. There is a potential solution in an already existing system.

Where are the creative solutions that twinks provide?

The only solution, and argument, pro-twinks have is to do what they do. Time and time again they've pointed out that gear is the answer. They can't or won't wrap their heads around the fact that this has two major ramifications: gear disparity and a shift in the population of participating levels towards x9. This makes leveling through pvp an unbalanced mess.

@ Misun- This is a discussion about twinks in leveling brackets. Bringing level 50's into it does nothing for your argument. See the above paragraph if you are confused.

Alrighty then. If you choose to ignore the advice that's been given to you (such as basic gearing for your character)..then that's your problem. You will not have fun in any pvp in this game. It's a gear based game..and it's exactly the same at level 50. (worse actually at least until you are mid 30's rank)

People have tried to be friendly and nice to you about it..but you have acted with hostility and disdain in nearly every post you have made. Perhaps pve is what you are looking for, it's quite a bit easier than pvp

[Sunnysideup]

It really boils down to whether Trion thinks they'll lose more subs from twinks, or from casuals who dislike that they overlevel content. Personally, I think it'd be the former, but if lock exp is disabled in Warfronts, a lot of disenfranchised bored 50 PvPers will quit their twinks and/or the game entirely. But because now there's content on the rise, and increasing reason to PvP at 50, it might be a smart decision for Trion to disable lock exp in Warfronts. I wouldn't hold my breath, but there is a chance. I'm really all for anything that disables a massive and unobtainable gear advantage, and I think the same should be done for 50 PvP, but that's a whole nother thread.

Basically, none of this made any sense whatsoever and I'm far to lazy to go into why.

[tevikolady]

The only solution, and argument, pro-twinks have is to do what they do. Time and time again they've pointed out that gear is the answer. They can't or won't wrap their heads around the fact that this has two major ramifications: gear disparity and a shift in the population of participating levels towards x9. This makes leveling through pvp an unbalanced mess.

I am only asking you to SHOW me where the gear disparity is. SHOW US.

We have not, ignored anything you have said. We have offered why it is a bad idea, or not one fully thought out. It was born of hatred, malice, and a desire to push your own agenda.

I told you I didn't want you to twink up to go out there and stomp on newbs, I asked you to twink out to show me, *us* where exactly the gear disparity exists. You refuse to do it. Why? Because you're afraid to find out there is no gear disparity? Are you afraid to find out that there is some truth to what we've been saying all along?

[tevikolady]

Way to derail yet another thread suggesting Twinking is garbage.

How many of these have to pop up in a week before they finally address the bads and their gear dominance? Seriously, it's becoming a joke.

Hugatree...

We had such a pleasant conversation in the other thread...now you've digressed....

Please, in your own experience, please show me, in your level bracket, where the gear disparity lies.

This is the one thing I've asked for from twink haters, and I have yet to get an answer. And Kyera, whose been more patient than I, had several links showcasing different level of gearing, each a smidge off from each other. But the only thing in common between them is that every slot was filled with gear.

I have yet to see twink haters display this so called gear disparity.

[Kyera]

RECAP: not an objective recap

Fixed it for ya.~~

In all seriousness, you touch on a number of the points, but I feel that you're off base on a few of them.

The portion of the community in favour of twinking on the forums has said that anyone can take the time to get geared. It's not very hard, and it does require you to do a bit of research (something that should be pretty expected for anyone playing an MMORPG -- researching and learning is a huge part of the experience). When I was leveling my first character, a year and some time ago, I was constantly playing with character builders to figure out efficient leveling specs and searching out dungeon drops to figure out if it was worth my time to run some of them (especially when the mobs started turning green).

A player, with the support of friends, can probably get from 1-19 and get decked out in a day. If they're leveling on their own, and just need the help of friends or guildmates to flesh out their gear, they can similarly put together a set of armor over the course of a day or so. This window expands somewhat in higher level brackets, but you also have more time to put the gear together before you level out of this bracket.

Through the first paragraph, you're pretty much on target.

The argument against twinking has, in fact, been that low level or undergeared characters stand essentially no chance against a twink, but an omission (either intentional or not) is that the same character stands "essentially" no chance against a non-twinked out toon in level-appropriate gear and with a similar spec. Admittedly, in the level 10-19 bracket, the best bet a character has for 'competing' with the twink is turning XP off to take the extra couple of hours to acquire better gear -- this fact (the bracket is fast; the first dungeon is only available half-way through; questing and drops don't necessarily get you gear in all slots before 10) is part of the reason why several of the pro-twinking people that are active on these boards have indicated they would not object to moving XP off to a minimum of level 20 (for the 20-29 bracket).

I would posit that, if Trion truly wanted PvP leveling to be a viable leveling alternative, and not just a component of a broader leveling experience (or a niche side component), XP gains through PvP would be comparable to an equal time investment questing, rifting, or running dungeons. The fact that it truly does pale in comparison leads me to believe it's not viewed as a wholesale alternative, so I have to say that, in my opinion, I don't think you're on target saying that Trion intends for players to level (primarily) through PvP. If that is the intent, then any change probably should be accompanied with an increase in earned XP to actually make it a true alternative.

Honestly, the biggest problem I have with your proposed bolstering/handicapping system is that it both punishes players who put effort in that goes above and beyond the effort level that a 'reasonable player' would employ, and it rewards players that put effort in that is well below the effort level that a 'reasonable player' would employ.

You have consistently proposed a system that puts both a limit on the ceiling and puts the floor (to which players are buffed, instead of being required to meet) at a comparable point, all in the interest of statistical parity. The biggest problem I have with that as a concept is that we are playing an MMORPG. By definition, MMORPGs are about character (and gear) progression, and they reward players for putting in that extra effort. Rift is, itself, very much a character and ESPECIALLY gear-driven game, from the beginning through to level 50 and through the various tiers of PvE and PvP content. There has been absolutely no indication given that Trion has any intent of normalizing statistics across the board, regardless of gear or time investment, preventing some players with more time and money than sense from having a statistical advantage -- they have made efforts to keep the gap narrow, and they have adjusted or eliminated elements that bring the gap beyond a level deemed accessible, but regardless of this, there is and always has been a gap. If you want to advocate that Trion should stray from this model, be my guest, but proposed solutions should probably be cognisant of Rift's overall design and the philosophy of PvP (which is competitive, and which should expect a reasonable competitive mentality from its participants).

If you want me to provide a viable alternative that lessens the gap but still requires players to put a lick of effort into gearing their characters out, yet avoids punishing (or rewards) players for putting in additional effort, here's my take on your system.

* Each bracket has a stat limit, putting an upper bound on all base stats (Str/Dex/Int/Wis/End). This limit should be a percentage of the bracket-appropriate BIS gear set (excluding methods exploiting the system) -- for the sake of this example, let's say 85%.
* Players in the bracket with gear of a level below the bracket cap -2 (so the x7 levels), but within, say, six levels of their current level have the statistics of that piece of equipment bolstered to match an equivalent piece of level x7. A purple is bolstered to an equivalent purple, a blue to an equivalent blue, etc. The stats still can't exceed that 85% of bracket BIS cap.
* Runes are not bolstered. Augments in crafted gear are not bolstered (the base item is scaled up and the augment's normal effect is applied).

This doesn't excessively punish players who do put in the extra effort (but still caps effectiveness), it keeps players who are attempting to keep their gear current at a competitive level (so long as they've got things in slots), and it doesn't unjustifiably bump up people who are negligent or apathetic with their gear construction while jumping into a PvP environment.