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Thread: Campaign against exp lock in Warfronts

  1. #46
    Rift Disciple Cedius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaiana View Post
    Also, you guys cannot keep looking at the stagnant state of top end PVP (IE there are few R40s still playing and a smaller then ideal population through the ranks hence the large amount of imbalanced warfronts at top end) and then say that all the other PVP should be the same. The idea of top end R40 PVP is they've been playing the game long enough that they are now highly experienced PVPers, since the ranking system it has been the intention that the PVP be between equally geared players. Population limits the effectiveness of this but it's not reason for the low rank PVP to follow suit creating an artifical end game in every single bracket. It's an incredibly easy problem to fix at low levels, warfronts give XP regardless of XP lock, or you simply can't enter a WF with it active.
    So you're saying r40 takes skill to get instead of grinding? I never knew that!
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  2. #47
    Rift Chaser MitsuMarty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaiana View Post
    Great, you don't. But people ARE and people CAN. That's the issue here. I'm sorry to say but the examples you've given of your mage are pure luck. Any twink could blow you out of the water for healing or damage, you got lucky and fought bad twinks or badly geared twinks. People say things like "a skilled player can destroy a non-skilled twink" but what happens when the twink is also a skilled player? In the lower half of a bracket (eg. 40-45) for example, you cannot compete with a twink. They have more abilities and access to exponentially better gear than you, the "bolster" system in effect now does not work. Maybe they should introduce a stat cap (including weapon dps) based on the lowest level player in the warfront and the gear they have access to.
    Exactly, people CAN. It's obtainable or equally matched by something else out there. I'm not talking about grandfathered items. Those are the exception to the rules and should be available to everyone or removed completely, but I'm talking purple augs, high dollar runes, etc. Those aren't limited to only 1 person server, the people that have them, didn't get them by some lucky lottery drawing so when they started they had them already. They worked hard for it, and if the new players want them, they should too. As for the WF's I participated in with my mage, I don't think luck had anything to do with it as I was going against some good well known twinks in my bracket, ie. Amget, trissah, etc. The stat/gear difference isn't exponential. I just know how to play my class. I don't top them alot, but it does happen.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zaiana View Post
    It's as if dungeon content was only balanced around the best possible gear for the top of the level bracket (IE only a geared level 20 could do ROTF). I really don't see how the problem isn't incredibly obvious. The lower level content is very generous to new players now, to allow them to get to grips with everything and learn their class and the way the game works, while steadily progressing to the more meaningful content at 50, why should the PVP be any different?
    It's not based around best possible gear. But you can't successfully run raids with level 40 gear. You have to work to get better gear and you have to have teamwork to clear raids/dungeons. So I ask you the same thing, why should PVP be any different? As for learning the class, I thought I knew my class until I started going against twinks in the beginning. How are you learning if your not dying or being challenged by something/someone greater than yourself? People won't learn if they never die, because they'll think "this must be working, I havent died yet".

  3. #48
    Ascendant Kyera's Avatar
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    Failed to beat the edit timer on this one.

    One thing to keep in mind is that the "these players are leveling and just passing through" argument isn't a flawless one. I'm 'just passing through' rank 1-39 on my way to 40, but I wasn't going to half-*** it and get farmed and rely on other people to carry me, so I did my research and tried to keep as well-geared as possible. I personally wasn't looking to become a hardcore PvE raider, so I more or less got "reasonable" gear in all of my slots and did research into the fights/mechanics so I could contribute in a meaningful capacity in PvE encounters, but I lagged behind and got easily outparsed/outperformed by the people that put the hours in to grind PAs and Inscribed Sourcestones to build sigils and the like. I was happy contributing at the level at which I was contributing, but I didn't think I shouldn't have to spend hours and hours to compete with the top end.

    Personally, you might think it's dumb to spend hours and hours putting gear together for a non-end game bracket, but I think it's dumb that some guilds raid twenty to thirty hours a week so they can be one boss ahead of where my guild was raiding six (though my guild had its share of hardcore e-*****, like the guy who lost his **** because I only had a green rune instead of a blue rune on a piece I picked up 20 minutes before the raid because the blues cost about 20x as much on the AH, but I digress).

    I sure as **** wasn't going to come on the boards and clamor for that boss to be nerfed.

    Edit to add: If Trion has decided they don't want something available in the content range, though, it should be removed -- none of this grandfathered B.S. needs to persist.
    Last edited by Kyera; 05-11-2012 at 08:40 AM.
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  4. #49
    Prophet of Telara Zaiana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitsuMarty View Post
    Exactly, people CAN. It's obtainable or equally matched by something else out there. I'm not talking about grandfathered items. Those are the exception to the rules and should be available to everyone or removed completely, but I'm talking purple augs, high dollar runes, etc. Those aren't limited to only 1 person server, the people that have them, didn't get them by some lucky lottery drawing so when they started they had them already. They worked hard for it, and if the new players want them, they should too. As for the WF's I participated in with my mage, I don't think luck had anything to do with it as I was going against some good well known twinks in my bracket, ie. Amget, trissah, etc. The stat/gear difference isn't exponential. I just know how to play my class. I don't top them alot, but it does happen.
    My issue is mainly with people able to buy their way to BiS. Having excess gold should never be what dictates how geared a player you are, ever since gold sellers became an accredited problem for developers this has always been the way it goes. I could go cairn hunting, puzzle hunting, get all the best planar/pvp/dungeon/quest gear in a bracket and still have lower stats than someone who just dumped 100+ plat into augments on green crafted gear. The stat difference is exponential as your stats go up by bigger increments each level of gear. And they DIDN'T work hard for it, they used a load of cash from their main to buy it, can't you see that? Regardless of this, I still think there should not be little rank 40 equivalents running around in every warfront bracket, and the only reasons you guys have for thigns to be this way beyond badly thought out justifications is selfishness.

    I'm not calling your skills into question, but as I said, you got lucky, you had twinks on your own side so were able to regain some semblance of normal PVP, keep some distance from their twinks and do some damage. If a twink wanted you dead, you would be dead unless you just go super CC heavy and are a ranged player. Try being a non twinked warrior or melee rogue and see how that works out for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by MitsuMarty View Post
    It's not based around best possible gear. But you can't successfully run raids with level 40 gear. You have to work to get better gear and you have to have teamwork to clear raids/dungeons. So I ask you the same thing, why should PVP be any different? As for learning the class, I thought I knew my class until I started going against twinks in the beginning. How are you learning if your not dying or being challenged by something/someone greater than yourself? People won't learn if they never die, because they'll think "this must be working, I havent died yet".
    Once again, you're pointing at top end content and saying it should be the same throughout the leveling experience and it's complete nonsense. Nobody would ever start playing the game if everything ***** their face from level 1. You can learn without being wiped endlessly, some people desire more in a warfront than to just not die. "Being the best" should be motivation enough to improve, and you won't learn that from someone with better gear , you learn that from someone who is more SKILLED than you.
    Last edited by Zaiana; 05-11-2012 at 08:57 AM.
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  5. #50
    Rift Chaser MannSeastone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misun View Post
    So, by the same token..is it competitive when rank 40's are pitted against rank 3's? Isn't that the same thing?
    Absolutely not, and yes, it is the same thing. I would like it if they got rid of twinking and unmatched warfronts altogether.

    So you're saying r40 takes skill to get instead of grinding? I never knew that!
    He said R40s were guaranteed to be experienced players. Whether or not that experience translates into skill is up to them. It's still a better system than one where experienced players with significant gear advantages prey on new players.

    The "twinks are paying customers" argument is ridiculous too. Everyone is a paying customer while they're subscribed. The difference is that twinks are existing customers and new players are prospective customers. Twinks are already hooked. New players, who vastly outnumber twinks, are not. When they get **** on by twinks, that increases the chance that they will leave for a game which is more newbie-friendly.

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  6. #51
    Rift Chaser MitsuMarty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaiana View Post
    My issue is mainly with people able to buy their way to BiS. Having excess gold should never be what dictates how geared a player you are, ever since gold sellers became an accredited problem for developers this has always been the way it goes. I could go cairn hunting, puzzle hunting, get all the best planar/pvp/dungeon/quest gear in a bracket and still have lower stats than someone who just dumped 100+ plat into augments on green crafted gear. The stat difference is exponential as your stats go up by bigger increments each level of gear. And they DIDN'T work hard for it, they used a load of cash from their main to buy it, can't you see that? Regardless of this, I still think there should not be little rank 40 equivalents running around in every warfront bracket, and the only reasons you guys have for thigns to be this way beyond badly thought out justifications is selfishness.

    I'm not calling your skills into question, but as I said, you got lucky, you had twinks on your own side so were able to regain some semblance of normal PVP, keep some distance from their twinks and do some damage. If a twink wanted you dead, you would be dead unless you just go super CC heavy and are a ranged player. Try being a non twinked warrior or melee rogue and see how that works out for you.



    Once again, you're pointing at top end content and saying it should be the same throughout the leveling experience and it's complete nonsense. Nobody would ever start playing the game if everything ***** their face from level 1. You can learn without being wiped endlessly, some people desire more in a warfront than to just not die. "Being the best" should be motivation enough to improve, and you won't learn that from someone with better gear , you learn that from someone who is more SKILLED than you.
    But now your assuming all these twinks paid real cash for their items. Even if they did, you too CAN by getting plat and buying them as well. It may take you longer than if someone did buy them with real cash, but they're still attainable by everyone. And the gear does get more exponentially different the higher level, and that includes level 50's. But twinks are below that where gear isn't that different. Especially the bracket I play in 20-29. Most gear "upgrades" were <=+4 str per piece that I got from a vendor. So in that essence, it is about skill. I've beat PLENTY of other twinks that when I was merc'd and inspected them, they outgeared me by a decent bit.
    And by your own words, "Once again, you're pointing at top end content and saying it should be the same throughout the leveling experience". Your leveling to learn how top end content is. What would be more devastating? Learning how to deal with a challenge or leveling one way and then find out the top end is completely different?

  7. #52
    Rift Chaser MitsuMarty's Avatar
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    Edit timer ran out:

    Look, I'm not saying, I'm right or wrong. I'm not trying to push my beliefs onto anyone. And yes I'm sure some of the twinks you ran with were all about beating people less geared than themselves. Afterall, pvp is a competition. Some people are just sore winners. But not all of us are like that, actually, a majority of us like going against equally geared/skilled people. Hence, all the post from us telling you exactly where we went and did to get our current gear. But it's not fair to say that we are all cheaters that spend real money and want nothing more than to stroke our e-peens and that our hard work should somehow be scrapped because we put our effort into a pre-50 level. As I said before, there are multiple ways to level, if PvP is too hard and too much effort because now you have to actually have gear and a pvp spec. Then level another way and just PvP at 50 when you get there, like most of us twinks actually did until we were able to stay at our current level. The devs creating xp lock, didn't shut a door, they just gave more options to PvPers.

  8. #53
    Rift Disciple Cedius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MannSeastone View Post
    Absolutely not, and yes, it is the same thing. I would like it if they got rid of twinking and unmatched warfronts altogether.



    He said R40s were guaranteed to be experienced players. Whether or not that experience translates into skill is up to them. It's still a better system than one where experienced players with significant gear advantages prey on new players.

    The "twinks are paying customers" argument is ridiculous too. Everyone is a paying customer while they're subscribed. The difference is that twinks are existing customers and new players are prospective customers. Twinks are already hooked. New players, who vastly outnumber twinks, are not. When they get **** on by twinks, that increases the chance that they will leave for a game which is more newbie-friendly.
    So with your logic and your quote, you can assume that: "Twinks are guaranteed to be experienced players. Whether or not that experience translates into skill is up to them." Twinks playing with regular players = to r40 playing with r1-r40.
    Last edited by Cedius; 05-11-2012 at 09:28 AM.
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  9. #54
    General of Telara
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    The “Twinks have unfair advantage” argument is slowly fading away. A few weeks ago when experience locking was introduced an unintended consequence upset the PvP crowd. If a person had money or lots of high level avatars he could gear up a character in one of the “9s” brackets with gear unobtainable and never intended for a lower bracket. This “twink” had a tremendous advantage over other players in that bracket essentially dominating a warfront and ruining the game for others. Trion recognized the problem and immediately started changing some item stats or requirements so they could not be used in lower brackets—this is still an ongoing issue and is being addressed by Trion.

    That being said the original Twink problem is slowly going away.

    Definitions however change over time. Now, apparently, a Twink is anyone who decides to fill up his available gear slots with level appropriate gear vs someone who does not want to do that. Those that want to play naked or undergeared are crying, “why can’t I play this way and not be penalized”. Sigh, unfortunately, I have to agree with a large portion of PvP players that the Twink issue is just becoming a big cry fest about people who don’t make an effort to play PvP versus those that do.

    I agree that if there is gear or runes, or whatever, still being used in lower levels against players who have no chance of getting similar stuff, Trion should fix that. However, to argue as unfair that a person who decides to play naked or with inferior equipment, is being forced to play against a person who took the time to properly gear up for his level, is silly and just undermines the game for everyone.

  10. #55
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    Default well, i enjou it at least

    resubbed after 4-5momth or so..

    had a r40 rogue and cleric on a north american server(still got them i guess)
    Decided i wanted to play this game since swtor failed...well nuff said...just w8 for d3 or secret world..so again i resubbed for a month..i have lvled 2 char a warrior(since its the only char i havent played past r4 in the old rank system) and a rouge both lvl 49..
    I guess both are considerd twinks..they got the purples in those slots which demands plan and inscribes....and i rule....obvious 1 vs one..mostly..if i dont meet other twinks with classes which just scissor my paper...fair..yea!
    Point is...how fast..i just twinked my char....is well funny...so if everyone just realised what to do..which...i think is..yea obviously easy...there shoudent be a prob!
    Ofc it isent that easy either...because now and then ull meet a setup who actually support each other...using their cc instead of their alll mighty dps button which should destroy every thing in your path....and ur litlle twink gets...well ur arse handed 2 u...!
    Ive played mmos since it came up..(yea even texsted ones and those with dices etc)...u got to do some work to get to be it..thats it....do q or do rifts etc...plan out what u want...us your skills to ur advantage...realise that u cant beat them all..but u can make them annoyed..unfocused etc etc...and take credit for that.
    have fun dudes....mmos these days are a commitment....if u dont like it..dont play it

  11. #56
    Rift Chaser MitsuMarty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bombadil View Post
    resubbed after 4-5momth or so..

    had a r40 rogue and cleric on a north american server(still got them i guess)
    Decided i wanted to play this game since swtor failed...well nuff said...just w8 for d3 or secret world..so again i resubbed for a month..i have lvled 2 char a warrior(since its the only char i havent played past r4 in the old rank system) and a rouge both lvl 49..
    I guess both are considerd twinks..they got the purples in those slots which demands plan and inscribes....and i rule....obvious 1 vs one..mostly..if i dont meet other twinks with classes which just scissor my paper...fair..yea!
    Point is...how fast..i just twinked my char....is well funny...so if everyone just realised what to do..which...i think is..yea obviously easy...there shoudent be a prob!
    Ofc it isent that easy either...because now and then ull meet a setup who actually support each other...using their cc instead of their alll mighty dps button which should destroy every thing in your path....and ur litlle twink gets...well ur arse handed 2 u...!
    Ive played mmos since it came up..(yea even texsted ones and those with dices etc)...u got to do some work to get to be it..thats it....do q or do rifts etc...plan out what u want...us your skills to ur advantage...realise that u cant beat them all..but u can make them annoyed..unfocused etc etc...and take credit for that.
    have fun dudes....mmos these days are a commitment....if u dont like it..dont play it
    Very cryptic, but well said :P

  12. #57
    Rift Chaser MannSeastone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cedius View Post
    So with your logic and your quote, you can assume that: "Twinks are guaranteed to be experienced players. Whether or not that experience translates into skill is up to them." Twinks playing with regular players = to r40 playing with r1-r40.
    Good, you get it. Both situations are problematic and should not be considered competitive. Twinking is worse because twinks crush players who are just starting the game, matched warfronts do not exist in lower tiers, and twink damage isn't mitigated by valor, but they are both bad. If you believe two wrongs make a right, you can point at one to justify the other. I don't believe two wrongs make a right. That's why my idea was to get rid of both situations by eliminating unmatched warfronts and twinking entirely.

    I get that there are people who enjoy crushing newbs in 2-3 hits, especially when they can blame the victim for not being P40 or grinding out the gear or whatever else, but allowing people to do this is bad for the game.

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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by MannSeastone View Post
    Good, you get it. Both situations are problematic and should not be considered competitive. Twinking is worse because twinks crush players who are just starting the game, matched warfronts do not exist in lower tiers, and twink damage isn't mitigated by valor, but they are both bad. If you believe two wrongs make a right, you can point at one to justify the other. I don't believe two wrongs make a right. That's why my idea was to get rid of both situations by eliminating unmatched warfronts and twinking entirely.

    I get that there are people who enjoy crushing newbs in 2-3 hits, especially when they can blame the victim for not being P40 or grinding out the gear or whatever else, but allowing people to do this is bad for the game.
    The ONLY reason twinks are like R40's going up against R1's-R40's is because people in lower gear DO NOT (not that they cannot, but they DO NOT) get the gear for their level.

    ONLY

    REASON

    New players can get the gear the so called twinks have, but they CHOOSE NOT TOO. So is it the twinks fault for having invested the time and motivation to get the gear to be 'competative' or the 'new person's fault for choosing NOT TO.

    But, at level 50, you can't get teh gear until you reach a certain prestige, which means that you have to be farmed by these rank 40's over and over again until you have it. YOU CANNOT get the gear until you reach max level. That is the disparity. That's what makes non-level 50 warfronts fun.

    At lower levels, the players CAN achieve the same gear, but they DO NOT. So why penalize geared players that choose to gear up over people who do NOT play teh game to its fullest?

    If anything, people who do not have at least gear in every slot should be penalized further. Rift is a gear based system, and if you don't believe me, just go into your major city and look at the training dummies. They have 'normal' training dummies, Elite, training dumies and Raid boss dummies. If this game did not support gear and number crunching to develop the best possible rotation to eek out the most dps (or most effective heal rotation) for your build, then these combat dummies would not exist in game. People will spend hours anaylzing data, and testing builds, and damage rotations just to squeeze out all the potential from their character. And is it any wonder, that in Sanctum of all places, that this training area is right next to the PvP area? And if Rift wasn't about gear, then why such a HUGE disparity in gear between a rank 1 and a rank 40?

    This game IS ABOUT GEAR PEOPLE! Wake up and smell the coffee. If you are missing gear, and essences, and have not worked to at least be somewhat geared for your level range (i.e. you are not still wearing a level 12 BP when you are in your 30's. You can have a level 30 BP while being level 39 and still be somewhat competative, but that level 12 stuff should have been ditched when you hit level 20). Before you rush to the forums, spend even a modicum of time browsing the market, get some 'decent' gear, rune it up, and try it out in the warfronts. If suddenly you are not getting 1-2 shotted in warfronts, then you found your problem.

    Good day.
    Last edited by tevikolady; 05-11-2012 at 12:47 PM.

  14. #59
    Ascendant Charlice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by youkiddingme View Post
    Ok folks here a clue. Trion need to keep paying customers and pvp players will stay if they can gank low bees to the ground. Trust me before they did that there were only few players in lower bracket. Sure they will lose new customers. But that does not matter. Trion trying to keep pvp players happy and that means twinks are here to stay for now. Thus twinks will stay till Trion gets a clue and see the lost of new players.

    Personal opinion: From the few I see on my shard PVP players don’t want competition. They want to dominate unskilled and under geared players. The real question is why.
    I really don't think, most of the posters in these threads, even play in the lower level warfronts. Or, they are yet to reach level 50 and hit warfronts.

    In my opinion, they are 100 x more FUN than 50's warfronts. They are also 100 x more evenly matched, gear wise. They don't contain even half the emo rage either. And players actually try to win, and go after the objectives. My key word is fun. That is my 'real reason'.

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    Last edited by Charlice; 05-11-2012 at 02:51 PM. Reason: cause i can!


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  15. #60
    Rift Disciple Sabryn's Avatar
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    It seems like everyone is forgetting that all of us are paying customers. We can play the game however we want, and if someone doesn't like something in the game, they can do something else.

    That said, I highly doubt a few losses in a low WF is going to make people just up and quit.

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