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Thread: Campaign against exp lock in Warfronts

  1. #31
    General of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaiana View Post
    This Twink arguement is reaaallly dragging on.

    You guys must realise that having an effect on the warfront under 50 now is completely impossible now unless you're right at the top of the level cap (19-29-39-49,for the better gear, the level itself barely matters).

    Telling people to "get gear in every slot and L2P" is a ******ed arguement, PVP is an unfriendly leveling experience now that turns off new players, there's no skill on the part of the twinks unless there are lots of twinks on both sides in the warfront. I've leveled a cleric and a mage to 50 since the XP lock introduction, and there's never more then 10-20% twinks apart from in the F2P 10-20 bracket. It doesn't matter what class they are, or what class they're against, their damage is so overinflated in comparison to most of the other people in the warfront's health and healing capacity that the twinks can just spam whatever attacks they want and be super effective. Pray tell me what skill is involved in twinking, if it was anything to do with skill then you would lock at a lower level then X9, you just want as big an advantage in the bracket as possible so you can control the warfront, be a hero and not have to care about intended designs like teamwork, healing etc.

    Regardless of whatever arguement you may have for your right to "enjoy the game how you want", Trion should simply support the majority of their customers and consider the huge imbalances between players in the same bracket, and especially consider the effect twinks have on new subscribers, especially those that are new to MMOs. This goes both ways too, if the warfronts were majority twinks, then regardless of my personal opinion I'd be forced to agree that the feature was more benefitial to the health of the game... but it's not

    EDIT: Also, please stop making threads about it and bump existing threads instead!
    I think Trion does support what the majority of players want. Short ques, easy to enter warfronts, xp locking, twinks, mercs...that is why it is in the game....hey, you figure it out.

  2. #32
    Prophet of Telara Zaiana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misun View Post
    So, by the same token..is it competitive when rank 40's are pitted against rank 3's? Isn't that the same thing?
    Yes it is the same thing. However unless you're playing at non peak times, that doesn't happen. I'd like to point you to the existing bracket system for group of ranks at level 50. Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Riwijo View Post
    I think Trion does support what the majority of players want. Short ques, easy to enter warfronts, xp locking, twinks, mercs...that is why it is in the game....hey, you figure it out.
    For a start, the original intention and implementation of XP locking had nothing to do with twinking, though one must assume they considered it. They do generally have the majority's interests at heart, but they do not seem to in the case of twinking, that's my point. Though I don't think I've even seen so much of an opinion on the subject from a Trion employee so who knows.
    Last edited by Zaiana; 05-11-2012 at 06:59 AM.
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  3. #33
    Rift Disciple Leoknife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilgrinners View Post
    The 50 WF's are wayyyy worse than any of the twinking brackets. Play until you are r40 and tell me about your experience.
    One P40 here,
    One P30 and going to P40 should be there in about 2-3 weeks
    One P12 anfd going to P40
    One new level 50 and going to P40

    One of each class. Enjoying them all. Even at R1. L2PvP and you will enjoy the ride. Heck I enjoy the r1-r39 grind more then playing at p40 TBH.

    Level 50 is not broken, your skill is.

  4. #34
    Rift Chaser MitsuMarty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaiana View Post
    Though I don't think I've even seen so much of an opinion on the subject from a Trion employee so who knows.
    There HAS been a few opinions from Trion about twinking, they were even copy/pasted in some threads, basically stating, they know about it and they like what it does for the queue times.

    People complaining about twinking just want free xp without having to go out and quest/run dungeons. Pure and simple. And the more lower level wf's I go into, the more twinks there are, so it seems as though if we were not the majority, twinks are quickly becoming the majority. And by twinks I simply mean people that have started to equip items in every slot and are running with a pvp build. The days of you lazy ***** coming into a WF with your level 8 greens in a pve build just thrown together are over. If you want to level fast while just sitting in sanctum, then your going to have to earn it. If you don't like pvp in lower levels DON'T DO IT. It's your choice! We don't like pvp at 50 so WE DON'T DO IT! Your not forced into a f'n lower level bracket wf, you joined it on your own free will. If it's that much of a problem to you, then use other ways to level to 50. Leveling doesn't take THAT long to get to 50.
    Last edited by MitsuMarty; 05-11-2012 at 07:18 AM.

  5. #35
    Ascendant Kyera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BishopX View Post
    signed.
    unless you make seperate warfronts for XP locked people.
    no reason my warrior with 120 str and 60 dex should be fighting a rogue with 270 str and 380 dex.
    Maybe you should get your warrior geared. This isn't your terrible Rune Priest where you get fed gear as you run and hide and leave your team to die.



    Personally speaking, if Trion wants to put a cap on gear or something -- crafted gear has a cap on the augment that can be used, for example -- I'll still be playing twinks. It won't affect me, but it might affect the scrubs. If they want to nerf the XP lock, I'll probably just reroll and hope for another event with some BoA gear so I don't need to recraft. I like the dynamic of lower level PvP, since it provides a change of pace from upper level PvP. The impression I get from most of my fellow twinks, based on the trash talk and emote spam, is that they're just there to *** their e-peens.
    Last edited by Kyera; 05-11-2012 at 07:38 AM.
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  6. #36
    Ascendant Meina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaiana View Post
    For a start, the original intention and implementation of XP locking had nothing to do with twinking, though one must assume they considered it. They do generally have the majority's interests at heart, but they do not seem to in the case of twinking, that's my point. Though I don't think I've even seen so much of an opinion on the subject from a Trion employee so who knows.
    Something I put together in another thread...


    --Quoting Scott Hartsman from interview in Game Informer Magazine (April, page 24). In response to question about natural characters getting steamrolled by twinks:--

    "Judging by the stats, there have not been many cases of that at all. I know that the fear of it happening was a lot greater than the reality of it happening. Our game, unlike some other games, doesn't have the incredibly broken, overpowered stuff that really causes that problem, and that was an intentional part of the item and spell design. So the fear of it was definitely huge, but in reality it doesn't exist too terribly much.

    Now, that said, if that ever did happen we'd have no problem - the same way we have rank bracketing at level 50, we could easily do gear level bracketing at lower levels. Our system inherently supports it if we ever need to. But we look at the stats every day, and so far it doesn't look like it."

    << Short version: "You guys are blowing this way out of proportion".>>

    --Posted by Elrar, 3/26/12--

    Source

    Hey guys,

    While our GM's aren't prone to sweeping statements and this might have been paraphrased/taken out of context a bit I did just want to reiterate something I said a week or two ago:

    We are very much keeping an eye on and have made changes to the effective power a geared player can have in the leveling brackets. Please continue to report items or combinations that you observe (or personally use) that you feel or know to be more powerful than should otherwise be possible at your level.

    Gear and level will always play a role in your battlefield effectiveness, but we do want to make sure that things don't get carried away - appreciate your feedback and assistance to that end!

    Cheers all,

    Edit: Wanted to provide a link to my original reply - http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ml#post3657031 ( \/ Quoted below \/ )

    --Also posted by Elrar, 3/9/12--

    Hey guys,

    I decided to post in this thread because it has great constructive discussion and a variety of opinions in addition to not too many replies yet.

    This is a topic we've been watching closely since the release of 1.7. Now that it's had some time to settle we are taking a look at the numbers to see how much of an impact xp-locked players have in the leveling brackets in order to get an accurate perspective.

    That said, we also want to ensure that warfront queues are reasonable and as quick as possible.
    Ultimately your enjoyment is what matters - any solution has to actually solve a problem not create or mask new ones. I think most of us can agree that we'd want to avoid a situation where everyone waits longer to still wind up in the same match against each other, or to not be able to have a reasonable queue time at all.

    With this in mind - we have adjusted some items to reduce their effectiveness in the past and will do so again if the need arises in the future.

    Please continue to share your feedback and ideas - we really appreciate those of you who have maintained constructive discussions while sharing opposing points of view. In exchange I can assure you we'll keep reading it

    Thanks all,

    ------

    <<Short version for the above Elrar posts: They know about twinking. They like what it does for queue times. They are keeping an eye on the situation and will (and have) make changes to gear that they feel is too powerful for low level WF's.>>
    Last edited by Meina; 05-11-2012 at 07:43 AM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaiana View Post
    Yes it is the same thing. However unless you're playing at non peak times, that doesn't happen. I'd like to point you to the existing bracket system for group of ranks at level 50. Next?
    Ummm, I pvp in wf's off and on nearly all day every day and I only get ranked matches later in the day.

    Just saying.
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  8. #38
    Prophet of Telara Zaiana's Avatar
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    They should at least make it so that all gear unlocks at new brackets IE everything at 10/20/30/40 then, what are you supposed to do until you hit the level cap? It's not that bad to grind through at lower levels but the 40-49 bracket is unbearable.

    Also, it's not just dungeon and quest gear that people are wearing, it's the crafted gear with purple augs and full rune sets that aren't available on the AH and aren't available to most new players, especially the crafted blues and purple augs.

    I doubt I could even heal through a twinked 49 on my 50 cleric without hefty chunks of valor, which isn't even available until 50. I just checked out the AH on seastone, it would cost me roughly 100-150 plat just to pick up all the purple endurance augments, who has access to this kind of cash to waste every time they hit a new level bracket just to remain competitive, certainly not anyone without an existing 50, and they can get these kind of items with no personal investment, most 50s have at least a few hundred plat sittig around.
    Last edited by Zaiana; 05-11-2012 at 07:56 AM.
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  9. #39
    Prophet of Telara Zaiana's Avatar
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    Missed Edit Timer: Also the world event gear which is no longer available to new players, all BoA so another free way for lower levels to skip the hard part in gearing up, it's itemized way better than existing gear and is (or rather, was) incredibly quick and easy to obtain compared to other gear.

    Rune item levels should all be lowered, putting them at X8 unlocks simply makes the twinks that much better than the <38s in the warfront.
    Last edited by Zaiana; 05-11-2012 at 08:01 AM.
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  10. #40
    Rift Chaser MitsuMarty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaiana View Post
    They should at least make it so that all gear unlocks at new brackets IE everything at 10/20/30/40 then, what are you supposed to do until you hit the level cap? It's not that bad to grind through at lower levels but the 40-49 bracket is unbearable.

    Also, it's not just dungeon and quest gear that people are wearing, it's the crafted gear with purple augs and full rune sets that aren't available on the AH and aren't available to most new players, especially the crafted blues and purple augs.

    I doubt I could even heal through a twinked 49 on my 50 cleric without hefty chunks of valor, which isn't even available until 50. I just checked out the AH on seastone, it would cost me roughly 100-150 plat just to pick up all the purple endurance augments, who has access to this kind of cash to waste every time they hit a new level bracket just to remain competitive, certainly not anyone without an existing 50, and they can get these kind of items with no personal investment, most 50s have at least a few hundred plat sittig around.
    There is actually a very VERY small percentage of "twinks" that are using these high dollar augments. That's the misunderstanding that everyone on these forums has. I don't have ANY augments on my twink. Just blues/greens ranging from level 25-29 with basic runes, 3 pieces of the world event epics, and planar items. And 95% of the time on my warrior I top damage done by at least 30%. Why? it's definitely not overpowered items as mine were mostly just found/bought from AH. None costing over 1plat. And I have a pvp build and battlefield awareness.

    A better example is a mage I started, level 23 no funding, no crafting, no professions. Just gear I've found while leveling and a few pieces that were drops in the WF I was in. And guess what, I topped healing meters and got 3rd top damage done. Again, why? because I'm using a pvp build and have gear in every slot. It's not hard to be competitive as long as your not half-assing it. I treat pvp just like I do raids and dungeons. I go in there prepared and I know and study my fights. If I'm dying to someone over and over, no matter what level/gear I have. I'll study my combat log and find a way to counter it.

  11. #41
    Rift Chaser MitsuMarty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaiana View Post
    Missed Edit Timer: Also the world event gear which is no longer available to new players, all BoA so another free way for lower levels to skip the hard part in gearing up, it's itemized way better than existing gear and is (or rather, was) incredibly quick and easy to obtain compared to other gear.

    Rune item levels should all be lowered, putting them at X8 unlocks simply makes the twinks that much better than the <38s in the warfront.

    This whole "world event gear is no longer available" is such a f'n cop out and b*tch response. It's not overpowered gear. It's an incentive to participate in the event and is in no means a BiS. Hell I didn't get the helm because it was WORSE than the green helm I have on. The only WE gear I got was the trinket, ring, and necklace. Which again, on my warrior had LESS str than the neckpiece I was wearing, I just had extra beads and decided to get it.
    What it sounds like to me that your describing what you want is some sort of purely equal battlefield where it doesn't matter if it's your first day or 180th day played, we should all have the exact same gear/stats/damage. MMORPG's don't work like that. The give better stats/items/incentives to keep people playing longer, why play a game for hours on end to achieve the exact same gear/stats/dmg as someone that just started?

    By your logic, I just hit level 50 not that long ago, should I be able to go in there and have an equal chance at beating any R40's I go against? No I shouldn't and if I did, why the hell would I even consider the possibility of grinding up to r40 when I can just beat them as is?
    Last edited by MitsuMarty; 05-11-2012 at 08:17 AM.

  12. #42
    Prophet of Telara Zaiana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitsuMarty View Post
    There is actually a very VERY small percentage of "twinks" that are using these high dollar augments. That's the misunderstanding that everyone on these forums has. I don't have ANY augments on my twink. Just blues/greens ranging from level 25-29 with basic runes, 3 pieces of the world event epics, and planar items. And 95% of the time on my warrior I top damage done by at least 30%. Why? it's definitely not overpowered items as mine were mostly just found/bought from AH. None costing over 1plat. And I have a pvp build and battlefield awareness.

    A better example is a mage I started, level 23 no funding, no crafting, no professions. Just gear I've found while leveling and a few pieces that were drops in the WF I was in. And guess what, I topped healing meters and got 3rd top damage done. Again, why? because I'm using a pvp build and have gear in every slot. It's not hard to be competitive as long as your not half-assing it. I treat pvp just like I do raids and dungeons. I go in there prepared and I know and study my fights. If I'm dying to someone over and over, no matter what level/gear I have. I'll study my combat log and find a way to counter it.
    Great, you don't. But people ARE and people CAN. That's the issue here. I'm sorry to say but the examples you've given of your mage are pure luck. Any twink could blow you out of the water for healing or damage, you got lucky and fought bad twinks or badly geared twinks. People say things like "a skilled player can destroy a non-skilled twink" but what happens when the twink is also a skilled player? In the lower half of a bracket (eg. 40-45) for example, you cannot compete with a twink. They have more abilities and access to exponentially better gear than you, the "bolster" system in effect now does not work. Maybe they should introduce a stat cap (including weapon dps) based on the lowest level player in the warfront and the gear they have access to.

    Quote Originally Posted by MitsuMarty View Post
    What it sounds like to me that your describing what you want is some sort of purely equal battlefield where it doesn't matter if it's your first day or 180th day played, we should all have the exact same gear/stats/damage. MMORPG's don't work like that. The give better stats/items/incentives to keep people playing longer, why play a game for hours on end to achieve the exact same gear/stats/dmg as someone that just started?

    By your logic, I just hit level 50 not that long ago, should I be able to go in there and have an equal chance at beating any R40's I go against? No I shouldn't and if I did, why the hell would I even consider the possibility of grinding up to r40 when I can just beat them as is?
    It's as if dungeon content was only balanced around the best possible gear for the top of the level bracket (IE only a geared level 20 could do ROTF). I really don't see how the problem isn't incredibly obvious. The lower level content is very generous to new players now, to allow them to get to grips with everything and learn their class and the way the game works, while steadily progressing to the more meaningful content at 50, why should the PVP be any different?
    Last edited by Zaiana; 05-11-2012 at 08:23 AM.
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  13. #43
    Rift Master youkiddingme's Avatar
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    Ok folks here a clue. Trion need to keep paying customers and pvp players will stay if they can gank low bees to the ground. Trust me before they did that there were only few players in lower bracket. Sure they will lose new customers. But that does not matter. Trion trying to keep pvp players happy and that means twinks are here to stay for now. Thus twinks will stay till Trion gets a clue and see the lost of new players.

    Personal opinion: From the few I see on my shard PVP players donít want competition. They want to dominate unskilled and under geared players. The real question is why.
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  14. #44
    Ascendant Kyera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaiana View Post
    They should at least make it so that all gear unlocks at new brackets IE everything at 10/20/30/40 then, what are you supposed to do until you hit the level cap? It's not that bad to grind through at lower levels but the 40-49 bracket is unbearable.
    Runes and essences (and some of the PvP/planarite gear) are on the tens. Some are on or around the fives, as is the case with a lot of the crafted gear. Only a few pieces of crafted kit are on the nines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaiana View Post
    Also, it's not just dungeon and quest gear that people are wearing, it's the crafted gear with purple augs and full rune sets that aren't available on the AH and aren't available to most new players, especially the crafted blues and purple augs.
    Crafted blues can perhaps be obtained by asking a crafter or getting into a guild with a crafted. The purple augs are the difference maker, but if you really want to eke out the extra points, the 225 greens are available at an extremely reasonable price for the 10-29 range, and you can get the blue (Pure) augments for a reasonable price in the rest of the brackets (they're going for ~3p per on my server, which is enough to round out your missing pieces of kit).

    Essentially, the biggest gulf exists in the 10-19 bracket between people who don't have gear in all slots (because they haven't run dungeons, checked the auction house, gotten the drops, or found a crafter for hire or as a guildmate) and people who have crafted kit with grape augments. As you hit higher levels, that gulf diminshes, especially for someone who is running the gauntlet of rifting, running dungeons, and doing warfronts.

    As for essences, you can pick up solid ones by rifting as you level, including the clutch greaters for healing (double HoT is money).

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaiana View Post
    I doubt I could even heal through a twinked 49 on my 50 cleric without hefty chunks of valor, which isn't even available until 50. I just checked out the AH on seastone, it would cost me roughly 100-150 plat just to pick up all the purple endurance augments, who has access to this kind of cash to waste every time they hit a new level bracket just to remain competitive, certainly not anyone without an existing 50, and they can get these kind of items with no personal investment, most 50s have at least a few hundred plat sittig around.
    Minor nitpick -- you can get Pure Valorstone and craft yourself gear in the 47+ range that has a significant amount of valor on it, offsetting some of that problem. As for the price of the augments, it cost me <70 plat to put together a set for my warrior (shoulders, chest, belt, legs, gloves, boots, two rings, neck, three one-handers, a two-hander, and a shield) using my crafters and and some of friends, former guildmates, or randoms who I tipped a nominal fee. If you wanted to "ghetto" it up, you can produce the blue 300s for less than that, probably at a net cost of 40-50 of a stat across your kit.

    I think a bigger problem than the gear and/or financing itself is awareness. Most 'new' players (and most of the people I run into in these brackets are alts, based on conversations, so they're not 'new' either) lack PvP experience/awareness, they lack the awareness of the better or best specs in a range, and they lack awareness of the gearing options that are available to them. Not all of us horde thousands of plat to build twinks -- some of us farmed the mats (or, until I decided to transfer crafters, ran around Silverwood and Freemarch doing PvA to sell artifacts for the cash to buy things) and put in the time and effort necessary to put the kit together, effort these players may not be willing (or, admittedly as possibility, able) to do.
    Last edited by Kyera; 05-11-2012 at 08:33 AM.
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  15. #45
    Prophet of Telara Zaiana's Avatar
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    Also, you guys cannot keep looking at the stagnant state of top end PVP (IE there are few R40s still playing and a smaller then ideal population through the ranks hence the large amount of imbalanced warfronts at top end) and then say that all the other PVP should be the same. Since the ranking brackets system was implemented it has been the obvious intention of Trion that the PVP be between EQUALLY geared players. Just because you have the same stats doesn't mean you'll do as much damage as player X, that's where the skills is involved. Population limits the effectiveness of this but it's not reason for the low rank PVP to follow suit creating an artifical end game that ruthlessly mauls the lower level players in every single bracket. It's an incredibly easy problem to fix at low levels, warfronts give XP regardless of XP lock, or you simply can't enter a WF with it active.
    Last edited by Zaiana; 05-11-2012 at 08:37 AM.
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