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Thread: Shard vs Shard: How it can work in Rift?

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    Default Shard vs Shard: How it can work in Rift?

    First off, what is Shard vs Shard? Well Shard vs Shard is sort of a Rift terminology for RvR (DAOC) or WvsW (GW2) the immensely popular form of objective based open(ish)world pvp.

    How do other games do it? The two best examples are the long running Mythic game, DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) which used 3 factions on one server to counterbalance population inequities. In DAOC you had 3 froniters with multiple smaller "zones" and later on a central area in between was added. Inside each of these frontiers was a number of controllable keeps. The faction with the most keeps controlled owned the PVE/PVP raid dungeion (non instanced) Darkness Falls. Each realm also had relic which granted faction buffs, these were housed in a massive and heavily defended Relic Keep. Keeps could be claimed by guilds and when guards from your keep were pulled it would broadcast an alert in the guild channel. Keeps were upgradeable up to 3 levels. Various kinds of seige equipment existed for taking down doors (and later walls, as keeps could be razed).

    The other game that is doing this is Guild Wars 2. As you have no doubt heard, WvsW in Guild Wars 2 is very much an extension of DAOC but differs in several major and relevant ways (specifically as it pertains to how Rift might implement such a system. In Guild Wars 2, the WvsW is not actually completely open pvp. The WvsW concept is that 3 servers are assigned a color (this is called red vs blue) and each color has its own series of keeps, towers and supply caravans each with point values. In the center of these 3 massively huge zones is a 4th massively huge zone that houses a massive central keep worth the most points. Controlling a majority area grants factin buffs and bonuses but nothing else at this time. What makes this system different is how it functions mechanically. Each WvsW match lasts 2 weeks and is essentially a massively huge battlegrouind. It can fill up, so its not truely open. Though the population cap for each server is large, it does limit things from getting to out of control. I personally don't see this as a bad thing. People who played DAOC know that during a relic raid the game became a virtual slideshow as frames per second would drop to the single digits. I'm not sure what the current cap is on players in WvsW. I heard they hope to have it at 1000 per server by launch. Right now I would guess its at about 500. However the game is clearly lacking alot of optimization yet (only uses a single processing thread). Even so I never dropped below 22 fps.

    Great, so what does this have to do with Rift? Simpe. People have been asking for RvR for some time in Rift and the devs have even said at one point last year that nothing was in the works. But with WvsW's immense popularity I don't see that standing for long. So the question becomes how do you take a concept from two very different styles of game and apply it to Rift. Well you have to both use Rift's strengths and also modify some of its weaknessses. But the end result would be something that brings Rift back into the mind of people who PVP, and also give current pvp players something dynamic and interesting.

    Ok, so how would it work? Rift has several issues that make it as it exists right now a bad fit for WvsW/RvR etc.
    Cons:
    1.) Tiered progression system makes a system like SvsS which relies on relative power balance, a very dodgy idea.
    2.) Development time. Developing multiple maps and a complex system like this takes a lot of time, and work, and is unlikely to be something that just shows up "in a patch". Its more like expansion content.
    3.) The engine has difficulty displaying massive amounts of people even in battles against invasion bosses.
    4.)Lore, how would you make a non faction based world pvp system work with lore. Honestly this is the biggest problem I forsee.

    Pros:

    1.)Rift's Soul system makes for a much more compelling concept than any other MMO doing this sort of system.
    2.) Rifts interesting lore would make for some very unique seige weapons, more than just the standard wooden ram or ballista.
    3.) Rifts lore also allows for introducing the PVE side of these systems (a major part of them) into the concept in a very interesting way. (I'll get to that in a bit).

    Concept:

    2 Shards. Each shard has its own set of capturable objectives. Each Shard has a max of 75 players. (3 raids plus scouts etc.). Upon entering the Battleground you are put into a raid (you may drop out and go solo if you wish). When you enter you are set to max level, and through the rift loot system you are given loot boxes that cover the 3 basic roles (damage, dps, heal, hybrid/support) if your class warrants. These gears are equal in stats and roughly equivalent to the gear just below the top level of the game. These only function inside the warfront. You are also through the loot box given the necessary runes and souls to spec your character out as you choose. Each zone is fairly large (about the size of Stillmoor) and there is a third central area connecting the two that is about the size of Ember Island. There are several types of objectives.

    Supply Porticulum: These function both as ways to get around the island (there are no mounts). And also give you set amount of supply points with which to upgrade your objectives. These start of controlled by planar forces (dependant on what rift/invasions are in the area). There are 6 of these in each zone. One or two people can take the elite that guards these.

    Towers: These small guarded watchtowers have doors that are fairly weak if you have a sourceram, but still fairly sturdy against normal player attacks. These features windows where players can attack people on the ground from above. There are 5 of these in each zone. A group can take these.

    Sourcewell Camps: These are controlled at the start of the game by planar invaders and are guarded by a powerful planar champion. These camps give your sourcestone which is used to power the siege weapons and to upgrade keeps (buying things like a speed buff merchant etc). There are 4 of these in each zone. These are designed for 2 groups.

    Fortess: Each zone has 3 of these large city complexes. They have a large contingent of npc guards, and have a porticulum inside. They also require heavy seige and are guarded by a powerful champion. A raid will be needed for these.

    When you move to the central zone, it has all the above plus:

    City: This massive fortress has multiple points of egress, Strong guards, multiple champions guarding each courtyard and a extremely powerful raid boss. This city is owned by the plane of death at start. Gaining control of the city means you gain control of the Sourcefont in the center of the city. This grants a buff to players on that shard.

    Dungeon: There is a dungeon in the central zone, this is a seperate instance (if this is available you can queue from outside the SvS warfront, but it is a PVP flagged dungeon). You can only enter the zone if you are the point leader. However if you are in the zone, you can stay in the zone if it changes hands. Each zone has a different starting (wing) based on your assigned color (red or blue). Which then meets in the middle before opening up to the raid portion of the dungeon. On the red or blue side area areas and bosses for small and 5 man groups. When you zone in here you are in your typical PVE gear, but it uses the mentoring system to scale you up. Monsters in here drop cash and planarite shards (duo), geodes (5 man) or cores (raid). These can be used to purchase pve gear (there are things on the merchants for all levels of players). This dungeon is public group flagged.

    Ok, so how does this point system work? Well the point system works based on a stacking system much like a domination warfront. You gain points over a period of time based on what you hold. But like the Codex you get a different point value for certain things based on how hard they are to capture.

    Supply-5
    Tower-10
    Source Camps-15
    Forts-25
    City-50

    Alright, what about Seige weapons and drops? Won't loot balance be messed up because everyone is set to max level and has the same gear? Here is how it works, but I'll talk about seige first.

    Sourceram-A massive ram steam powered via source energy. Once placed it can only be turned. Does huge damage to doors and walls. This is controlled by 3 players.

    Sourcepowered Seige Tower-Expensive and powered by alot of source energy this tower is mobile and can house up to 5 players. This can be used to breach walls of fortresses and cities, without breaking the door. The downside being its a expensive way to seige since a wall breach like that would require multiple towers. Moves slowly and takes double damage. This is controlled by 5 players.

    Portable Source Cannon-Used for wall bombardment, these do large damage to stone and doors from a distance. They can't be used within 20 yards, they also do splash damage to friendly players. Additionally they require ammo which means you need source gems. This is controlled by 3 players.

    Planar Catapult-Used for defense against attacking forces, this fires a massive explosive source ball into the enemy ranks. Does double damage to enemy seige equipment. Requires source gems for ammo conversion. This is controlled by 2 players.

    Source Caltrops-Used for keep door defense, these can be placed under a door or wall being attacked. They do heavy blast damage and also cast shrapnel bomb (bleed over time) on attackers. Single use, and costly to use on a regular basis. This is placed by the player.

    Planar Enchanted Anti Seige Golem- This is the second most expensive piece of seige equipment (behind the tower). Its mobile, but designed to be placed on walls, at arrow holes, or on the front lines. Its not movable but it does aoe damage (type depends on the planar element you choose to buy). to attacking enemies from mage. It has a 10 second cast time aoe nuke that it does on repeat and a high damage aoe nuke with a dot that it does every 2 minutes. This is controlled by a player.

    As for drops. Aside from money, everything dropped within the warfront is only used with the warfront. There are gear drops (these only ever improve slightly upon the template gear). The drops out in the zones and in the dungeon are mostly cosmetic. These are marked warfront only and their stats don't work outside of warfronts. These can be used as wardrobe however. Rifts and invasions drop Source Gems which are used to purchase upgrades for keeps (along with supply) and to buy seige parts. The seige parts can also drop from the planar mobs in the zones.

    Alright in closing, I think that covers most everything. If anyone has questions post here. Its fairly comprehensive so I may have left something out. I've been working on this for awhile. I think this system as described above would 100% work for Rift, and would bring renewed excitement for pvp players and probably PVE players as well. One thing I heard often during WvsW this past weekend was that people who hated PVP absolutely loved WvsW. Probably because its about working as a team not about personal glory or kills. Its about strategy and war, not who does the most damage or gets the most killing blows.
    Thats one reason why I think its important to have it mentor everyone up to max level and use gear templates. This is about making PVP accessible and FUN! Its also not required since the system exists outside of warfront system and normal PVE gearing system. The dungeon is accessible to any but it also a public dungeon.

    Keep in mind as I said, this is not something Rift could do overnight, but I think this is the way to go. I thinkif you half *** a system of open pvp you get something like Illum and SWTOR and that just doesn't work. Time and effort needs to be spent to make a system that works within itself and is self sustaining. This would really increase Rifts popularity in my opinion. Its alot of work for the devs I suppose, but I think the payoff would be huge.
    Planar Breach Support Open World PVP and PVE!
    Sourcewell and PVP Rift Objective Based PVP A more resource efficient way of adding Open World Objective based PVP!
    Ember Isle Open World Style PVP Repurposing Lets do something with this amazing zone!

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    What's the Carrot?

    People spent hours and hours and hours ( ... and hours in some cases) leveling and progressing their character to give up all their advantages the second they enter this PVP scenario. What do they get to take away from it?

    Before you say "the fun"... I have spent most of today going through the PVP forums; and posts that cry out about "twinks", and gear imbalance, and PVP barriers of entry are always met with "I worked hard for my R40 and I don't want some scrub just walking in to catch up to me without the effort".

    The idea sounds great for a Fantasy based online game that targets "True" skill based PVPers as it's primary focus. But for Rift? I haven't seen evidence on these forums that all the people complaining that PVP is broken and this game is dying, etc. would be interested enough in actually participating in a legit PVP system if it came at the expense of the "advantages" they've worked for. There are some to be sure, but I doubt enough.

    Most of the people who would not only enjoy, but participate in the system you describe either left the game long ago; threaten to leave as soon as GW2 comes out but still inexplicably hang around Rift and these forums being nuisances instead of just getting lost already (so wouldn't be here when a system like you describe became available); or never played the game to begin with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polyteknix View Post
    Most of the people who would not only enjoy, but participate in the system you describe either left the game long ago; threaten to leave as soon as GW2 comes out but still inexplicably hang around Rift and these forums being nuisances instead of just getting lost already (so wouldn't be here when a system like you describe became available); or never played the game to begin with.
    Lol. GW2 is Not out yet.

    Some of us still have sub time we're just waiting to time out.

    Believe me, you'll stop seeing us "hanging out" once we can actually start playing GW2.

    In the meanwhile, we're bored and therefore we troll.

    Some of us have a lot to say to Trion before we permaquit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polyteknix View Post
    What's the Carrot?

    People spent hours and hours and hours ( ... and hours in some cases) leveling and progressing their character to give up all their advantages the second they enter this PVP scenario. What do they get to take away from it?

    Before you say "the fun"... I have spent most of today going through the PVP forums; and posts that cry out about "twinks", and gear imbalance, and PVP barriers of entry are always met with "I worked hard for my R40 and I don't want some scrub just walking in to catch up to me without the effort".

    The idea sounds great for a Fantasy based online game that targets "True" skill based PVPers as it's primary focus. But for Rift? I haven't seen evidence on these forums that all the people complaining that PVP is broken and this game is dying, etc. would be interested enough in actually participating in a legit PVP system if it came at the expense of the "advantages" they've worked for. There are some to be sure, but I doubt enough.

    Most of the people who would not only enjoy, but participate in the system you describe either left the game long ago; threaten to leave as soon as GW2 comes out but still inexplicably hang around Rift and these forums being nuisances instead of just getting lost already (so wouldn't be here when a system like you describe became available); or never played the game to begin with.
    Fun.

    If you played the GW2 beta or DAOC you would understand. If you haven't you can't possibly. Its unlike any other PVP out there. Only those 2 games really did it right. However there is a small carrot in three ways. Cosmetic gear from the warfront itself, shard buffs, and the dungeon. The dungeon is probably the biggest carrot. As you can get all types of gear from it.

    Look at the shambles Rift PVP is in right now. Its bleeding pvp players, and the pvp base was never that good to begin with. If Trion doesn't try to come up with something to interest those players who pvp that are going to GW2 then they are gonna probably lose them forever. When this game started the people who wanted the system like what I described were here, and they may have long since quit the game, but that doesn't mean they won't come back. Because like I said, Rift has a couple things GW2 and DAOC don't which is a fantastic class/soul system and a great secondary pve element in rifts/planar invasions. Having a 10 day warfront like this that people can go in and out of and persists I think provides more of a lasting benefit to the player than grinding out warfronts that make you want to smash your face against a wall. If people can still get favor from player kills (which you do btw, that doesn't change). People will want to try it and if its good, they will love it.
    Planar Breach Support Open World PVP and PVE!
    Sourcewell and PVP Rift Objective Based PVP A more resource efficient way of adding Open World Objective based PVP!
    Ember Isle Open World Style PVP Repurposing Lets do something with this amazing zone!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khelendross View Post
    Having a 10 day warfront like this that people can go in and out of and persists I think provides more of a lasting benefit to the player than grinding out warfronts that make you want to smash your face against a wall. If people can still get favor from player kills (which you do btw, that doesn't change). People will want to try it and if its good, they will love it.
    I used to LOVE Lotro's PvMP map. It was so much fun forming 50 man raids and trying to retake keeps from massive groups of creeps.

    It was so much fun having leaders, organized commanders, and strats/tatics ... and the reward of capturing keeps in the forms of PVE buffs. I for one am very excited about GW2 in that sense ... and there will still be a small gear carrot when it comes to their WvWvW PVP.

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    I'm actually almost 100% positive that Trion is working on some sort of RvR system based on the what their most recent leakings of PvP info are. However, they have quite the uphill climb based on everything I have seen with this engine and its inability to render large number of players. With the engines limitations coupled with the relatively unimaginative content they have released for PvP I think it will be quite difficult for them to compete with GW2 in quality of RvR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seether View Post
    I'm actually almost 100% positive that Trion is working on some sort of RvR system based on the what their most recent leakings of PvP info are. However, they have quite the uphill climb based on everything I have seen with this engine and its inability to render large number of players. With the engines limitations coupled with the relatively unimaginative content they have released for PvP I think it will be quite difficult for them to compete with GW2 in quality of RvR.
    Yea I used 75x75 in this, and honestly I think thats about all they could handle. Thats a paultry number compared to GW2. However I think 75x75 would probably work well enough as long as the maps aren't to huge, and also keep in mind there are no raid groups in GW2. 5 is it. This engine is rather odd as it clips out if to many people are on screen, rather than drop to a untenable fps state, it will simply not render the players at all. Trion knows what that number is, but I think its around 200 on screen at once. If its 150 or less its gonna make any kind of WvsW difficult for them to do.

    While I to believe they may be working on something, Hal Hanlin did say in like October or something that nothing was in the works. Now, he may have said that to fool people (which is a sily move) or it may have begun development when the first GW2 CBT's started and word got out about how awesome it was. I have no idea on how long development on something as complicated as I described above would take. With just the pvp side of it (maybe they add the dungeon later) I would say at least 8 months.
    Planar Breach Support Open World PVP and PVE!
    Sourcewell and PVP Rift Objective Based PVP A more resource efficient way of adding Open World Objective based PVP!
    Ember Isle Open World Style PVP Repurposing Lets do something with this amazing zone!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seether View Post
    I'm actually almost 100% positive that Trion is working on some sort of RvR system based on the what their most recent leakings of PvP info are. However, they have quite the uphill climb based on everything I have seen with this engine and its inability to render large number of players. With the engines limitations coupled with the relatively unimaginative content they have released for PvP I think it will be quite difficult for them to compete with GW2 in quality of RvR.
    The game should be able to handle 40v40. Maybe even 50v50. It's when it becomes 60+ stop rendering in my experience.

    This can also be alleviated by properly and cleverly designing an RvR zone where we don't all clash in the middle holding stones, and that it forces both sides to have 1 large force and roaming small groups that constantly skirmish with other small groups.

    If that's possible they can really open up the maximum players allowed
    r40 puzzlybox <rise of mayhem> whoo whoo
    r40 pizzabox wheeeeeeeee

    puzzlebox + apoth = <3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL4L4Uv5rf0

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    Quote Originally Posted by Puzzlebox View Post
    The game should be able to handle 40v40. Maybe even 50v50. It's when it becomes 60+ stop rendering in my experience.

    This can also be alleviated by properly and cleverly designing an RvR zone where we don't all clash in the middle holding stones, and that it forces both sides to have 1 large force and roaming small groups that constantly skirmish with other small groups.

    If that's possible they can really open up the maximum players allowed
    Yea I think its important as in my design above to have multiple objective where the objective is map control, not one specific point. By doing this you have multiple raid groups that work autonomously towards a larger goal. And at most you would never have more than 40vs40 at any given time. I think 75 is a workable number given that its unlikely all 75 will meet the other 75 all at once.
    Planar Breach Support Open World PVP and PVE!
    Sourcewell and PVP Rift Objective Based PVP A more resource efficient way of adding Open World Objective based PVP!
    Ember Isle Open World Style PVP Repurposing Lets do something with this amazing zone!

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    This is actually a well though out thread and is offering some positive dialouge. Not the becoming all too common "Rift sucks, and instead of moving on I'm gonna linger and bleat"

    Bumping so it doesn't fall of the front page quite yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seether View Post
    I'm actually almost 100% positive that Trion is working on some sort of RvR system based on the what their most recent leakings of PvP info are. However, they have quite the uphill climb based on everything I have seen with this engine and its inability to render large number of players. With the engines limitations coupled with the relatively unimaginative content they have released for PvP I think it will be quite difficult for them to compete with GW2 in quality of RvR.
    GM in chat tonight implied something was in the works that wasn't necessarily one faction versus another. When questioned directly about it, gave something along the lines of "wait and see"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valnak View Post
    GM in chat tonight implied something was in the works that wasn't necessarily one faction versus another. When questioned directly about it, gave something along the lines of "wait and see"
    I've heard that for awhile now (Daglar said something similar last time he was on the PTS). And I believe it. However I wouldn't get your hopes up for something like what I suggested, this was a more longterm suggestion.

    What I think we may be getting? Some sort of sourcewell driven mechanic. What I can't figure is how the "no faction" part plays into it. However I could be wrong. If anyone recalls when Rift launched the question of RVR style PVP was posed to Scott Hartsman he said that if enough people asked for it Trion would strongly consider it. This prompted a several thousand page thread. Now alot of those people are probably long since gone if they were open world pvp loyalists. But if perchance they started to work on it then, it is possible they are ready to unveil it now. I just still can't understand the logic of Hal Hanlin saying nothing was in the works and potential driving away hopeful customers.

    Still I have alot of faith in Trion, whatever they are planning I definitely look forward to testing it soon (honestly if they don't do something for pvp in 1.9 they are gonna really start to lose pvp players). I've been hearing grumblings that we will see some of 1.9's content hit the PTS next week. What that might be, I don't know. I'd imagine mentoring will probably need the most testing.
    Planar Breach Support Open World PVP and PVE!
    Sourcewell and PVP Rift Objective Based PVP A more resource efficient way of adding Open World Objective based PVP!
    Ember Isle Open World Style PVP Repurposing Lets do something with this amazing zone!

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    I understand that Trion is more committed to the PvE end, but they really needed to get on this 4-6 months ago. To have a really refined product that could leverage player retention when GW2 comes out. And back then there would have been a significant amount of PvPers left who would play the living crap out of it.
    r40 puzzlybox <rise of mayhem> whoo whoo
    r40 pizzabox wheeeeeeeee

    puzzlebox + apoth = <3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL4L4Uv5rf0

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    Quote Originally Posted by Puzzlebox View Post
    I understand that Trion is more committed to the PvE end, but they really needed to get on this 4-6 months ago. To have a really refined product that could leverage player retention when GW2 comes out. And back then there would have been a significant amount of PvPers left who would play the living crap out of it.
    THe biggest problem they are gonna have now is that as you say many of those players will be entrenched in GW2's amazing WvsW. Trion if they do a SvS needs to market it well. Let people know that Rift is committed to objective based open world pvp and also highlight what seperates Rift from GW2 which is namely its soul system. GW2's class system while seemingly simple is actually quite deep, but it doesn't thrill me in quite the same way as Rift's does. And that is Trion's biggest strength. Another strength is Rifts. I think the warfront should be fully rift enabled, with varying types and strengths of rifts as well as invaders out and about. The idea that the area contested was a sort of nexus point for various planar armies that we are now struggling (against them and ourselves) to take control over, is a rather unique twist on the traditional RvR/WvsW concept. So I would say Rifts themselves, along with Lore and the Class system are two things the rift marketing team would need to hit upon when marketing a open world pvp system. The players are out there and if you catch their interest they WILL come back, but you have to let them know you are there and still want their business.
    Planar Breach Support Open World PVP and PVE!
    Sourcewell and PVP Rift Objective Based PVP A more resource efficient way of adding Open World Objective based PVP!
    Ember Isle Open World Style PVP Repurposing Lets do something with this amazing zone!

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    In light of the wierdo posts from the "phone number dev" I figured it was interesting to note that not only was 3 faction pvp seemingly hinted at (but maybe not factions at all, from the poem it sounds like its one faction of ascended, just assigned to different...sigils) but its also worth nothing that he posted in the dungeon and raid forum, maybe it will have a open world pvp dungeon/raid like I recommended in my concept above. If they did that, they would be one upping GW2, cause they won't have that for launch.

    Ultimately I have no problem with Trion taking a long time to do something with pvp if its something major. But if its something major they need to hurry up and get it on the PTS cause it will probably need at least a month of testing and I believe 6/21 was the date on the whiteboard for 1.9.
    Planar Breach Support Open World PVP and PVE!
    Sourcewell and PVP Rift Objective Based PVP A more resource efficient way of adding Open World Objective based PVP!
    Ember Isle Open World Style PVP Repurposing Lets do something with this amazing zone!

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