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Thread: There still is no entry vector for new players into RIFT PvP

  1. #16
    Ascendant batou079's Avatar
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    I used to be low prestige rank. Everyone started at the bottom of the ladder.
    I started my grind before bolstering, before the valor buff, before prestige rank brackets, back when gear required prestige ranks... etc etc.

    THOSE were the days of struggle for new PvP'ers. New PvP'ers have it 10x better now than ever before.
    Low prestige for sure is still at a dis advantage to top prestige, but this is the nature of a rank system. Especially since it was open world. In WFs, they have hugely addressed this issue with the bracket system. Stick to WFs if a player is too worried about high prestige destroying them. Open world PvP is a risky battlefront. Yes it is fun, and everyone would like to stand a chance, but open world is named aptly because it entails ANYTHING goes. You take the risk of facing superior enemies, bad players, honorable players and troll players alike. It is a risk you take if you open world.

    That said, i also think it has a lot to do with builds. I am not saying the OP's build was bad, but more often then not, players feel their one PvP build should stand a chance versus ANY and ALL classes/builds. this is just not the case. Trion based this game off teamplay, not 1v1. Therefore builds often have specific counters that can either pacify them, or in which they are most effective against. There are some builds that perform in a wider variety than others, but usually there are always builds that are more powerful versus that particular class/build.

    TL; DR? Sure the high prestige vs low prestige can be pretty daunting, in world PvP. But new PvP'ers (in warfronts) have a pretty damn good situation now, 10x better than it ever was, at being effective and useful.

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  2. #17
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    Default The Grind Has Been Nerfed

    I realize there is a lot of difference from lower ranks to fully geared R40s, but that is something easily remedied. Trion nerfed the PvP "grind" to almost laughable from what it was at launch. With the addition of prestige/valor pots, escalation weekends, PvP quests, matched warfronts, and a closing in the gap between the highest and lowest PvP gear, Trion had made it very easy for casual players to get the best gear with minimal effort and time.

    Once you gear up you will find that it's more about skill and not build or gear...except I still can't kill some clerics after dumping 25k damage in them in 15 seconds.

    Do escalation weekends and you will gear up pretty quickly.


    Fizbang R40 Defiant Mage Seastone

  3. #18
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    How did the wolves become wolves? They were sheep for 30 - 40 days. Although I say you start turning into a pretty nasty sheep halfway through the transformation. I became max rank r6 right before r8 was released. As I was a late joiner for the game and hit top rank without bonus weekends, bolsters and even normalized valor, it was progressive my whole way up to r6 when it was cap. I just manned up and ranked up. Then I became that person (mind you after 50 days) that has 'always been top rank cause I grinded it with my friends in premades (friends I don't have...seriously, watch my videos, you never see friends on).

    I got over throwing the concepts around in my head for days, this and that, opening these discussions, and simply ranked up. You don't need to be top rank to pose a threat and the window is quite minimal with goals easily viewable. There is nothing complex needed to be done unless new players just share totally different philosophies with me. To me going into this game fresh 50 was no diff. than picking up some FPS game I'm new at. I'm going to log online and some guy who knows all the maps is probably gonna be dominating. Only way I turn into that guy is to memorize the maps and get good too. So I did the same thing here, I realized people stomped me and sins opened up on me with major crits and dropped me fast. So I just decided to do what it takes to reach that. I figured it out down to taking about 2 months and my literal time stamps for ranks say it took me ~59 days iirc, for rank 1 - 40, the whole progression.
    New round up of some high rank matches
    Chun-Li*E.Honda*Evil Ryu
    Abel*Ibuki*Dhalsim
    Gouken*Zangief*Ryu

  4. #19
    Prophet of Telara Kaelani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    How did the wolves become wolves? They were sheep for 30 - 40 days.
    Good analogy.

    While there are sheep, the wolves thrive.
    Eventually, you wind up with too many wolves, and too few sheep.
    The wolves don't like to eat each other, so they starve to death.
    The sheep don't want to be eaten, so they stay away.
    The wolves go hunt somewhere else.

    Would you go back and be a sheep again for 30-40 days?
    Doesn't sound like it, from your post.
    I don't blame you.
    Me either.
    Last edited by Kaelani; 05-03-2012 at 09:58 AM.

  5. #20
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    Are people saying the broken system is alright because they went through it? Bottom line, was it fun to eat **** for those 20-30 days?

    As a low rank warrior was it fun at all considering you just have dps and the only way to do damage results in your demise in 3 globals?

    As a low rank mage all you have is Dom. Was it fun spamming mana wrench, TI/MB and squirreling people?

    As a low rank rogue all you have is MM. Did you enjoy spamming eradicate on people?

    The only class that is even remotely effective at low ranks is a cleric healer but even then survival can be tricky at times considering the range of some classes and the gap closers of others.

    I personally dealt with it, because I know it got better. Was it fun? Somewhat... challenge is fun. If I was on a much better footing instead of essentially starting out over a barrel with my pants down i'm sure it would have been way more entertaining the entire way through. Asking someone without my mindset to stomach that and "waste" their free time results in the situation we have now. No new players... just alts of people who can stomach this. And what we get is a dwindling PvP playerbase as people just normally fall off because of attrition.
    Last edited by Weakest; 05-03-2012 at 10:04 AM.

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  6. #21
    Prophet of Telara Kaelani's Avatar
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    Default HEADLINE - NFL to change rules to match Rift PvP

    (AP) - The competition committee of the National Football League met Tuesday to discuss a change of rules to improve the enjoyment of the game for fans and players. They decided to follow the recent trend of so-called MMORPG games that feature gear-based PvP as a model.

    Here is a rundown of the new rules:

    Rookies will be forced to play naked. They will wear earplugs and blindfolds.

    First Year Players will be given a "cup", and can remove their earplugs.

    From the Second year through the Sixth year, players will be able to acquire pads, jerseys, and a helmet, but must still wear the blindfold during games.

    Seventh year players finally "earn the right" to see the other players, and can remove the blindfold.

    Eighth year players get to carry baseball bats to help cause fumbles.

    Ninth year players can "upgrade" to a club with four inch spikes.

    Ten year players can point to any other player of lesser tenure, and that player MUST forfeit the football, and hand it to the tenured player. (This can only happen on a "cooldown" of once per quarter, so it doesn't become OP.)

    Anyone who has been in the league for more than 10 years will play with the same benefits as the Ten year players... after all, they EARNED IT.






    (Now... who in their right mind would ever become a rookie?)

  7. #22
    Champion of Telara Leif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anmila View Post
    I cant raid in my PvP gear, so why should you be able to PvP in your PvE gear?
    Bold faced lie. As long as you have the hit requirements taken care of, you will do pretty good dps with the best pvp gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelani View Post
    (Now... who in their right mind would ever become a rookie?)
    Everyone, because the NFL still pays ridiculous sums of money to bench warmers.

    You're analogy would be better suited if you noted that players of the same year are more likely to be matched against others with comparable time invested.
    Last edited by Leif; 05-03-2012 at 10:45 AM.

  8. #23
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weakest View Post

    As a low rank rogue all you have is MM. Did you enjoy spamming eradicate on people?



    Was it fun?
    I actually enjoyed MM and Sab from low level. Sab was the first soul I choose and MM was the second one I adopted/enjoyed. I started using assassin only when I started doing WF's where I need to sneak in/level 50 pvp. Still the main 3 souls I play/enjoy now. I don't do anything different now than I did before except maybe play with more experience. Stuff just works better now but I never got a feeling of it being bad. It's pretty hard to relay now but all I know if I felt my first sense of decent competitiveness at rank 3 (scale of 1 - 6). I felt the first 2 were kind of crash course style, get your entry gear, sort of deal. That's what I did as a low level rogue, I never played like a gimmick because I am not one. I play my style and how I want to, pretty much always.

    Was it fun? I had fun constantly getting another piece of gear and seeing my performance rise continually until I hit the ceiling. I think a lot of the fun is chasing the carrot on the string and when you earn everything you want (nearly where I have been for a while) it tests how much you enjoy purely the content of the game and not the ladder of progression. I have fun still, I know a lot of people who don't and I don't think they enjoy the game as much as the chase. I did high end raiding for 4 years and the same concept applies when you get all the best gear in the expansion. I had fun when I got all the best gear in the game and sat on it for a few months waiting for a new xpack. But I know lots of people who seemed to just be utterly bored within a week of getting all the gear they want. I have fun with both ways, I have fun trying to get better and enjoy when I feel I am rising. Frustration is a part of video games lol. Think I never got pissed playing an SNES game? They were all fun as hell anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelani View Post

    Would you go back and be a sheep again for 30-40 days?
    I work and decide a lot based on logic or rationality. I can't think of a rational or logical reason I would re-level or be required to. If you are talking about men in black flashing my brain then me re-leveling a rogue in current day, I probably would. I don't see why I would ever 'go back', because I already did that. It's a weird question to answer because it's a situation that can't really happen exclusively with no other surrounding details.
    New round up of some high rank matches
    Chun-Li*E.Honda*Evil Ryu
    Abel*Ibuki*Dhalsim
    Gouken*Zangief*Ryu

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunacresia View Post
    This environment is very unhealthy for the game, new players, and people trying to access PvP. For one, it lacks the core values of a good pvp atmosphere: which is fun and competition.

    The fun is taken away because new players stand no chance against wolves. The competition is non-existent because the majority of it is gear-based domination. This boils the fun and competition into frustration, in which people just quit PvP.

    I know Trion is trying with PvP. Hopefully in the future we will see some updates that help return the fun and competition to PvE. I hope that some improvements to the atmosphere and its accessibility to new players will improve.

    I just simply wanted to give a real account and first hand experience of what its like to be a player who doesn't have the gear and is trying to access PvP. To show people how difficult it is and just how much new players resemble dog food in the current PvP build.
    Ordinarily, I would agree with you, as new payers are the future of the game, particularly in PvP. And I agree too that the argument 'I had to go through it, so you must too' that is inevitably deployed in response to these sorts of posts is specious at best.

    However, your example is a really poor one:
    • At Rank 19, you are Captain (Legionnary, I think, Defiant side): the old Rank 4, the point where you start to be competitive in PvP.
    • You've already got 1000 valour, which is more than geniunely new players, who are lucky to have 700 valour at Rank 1.
    • You've been killed by a player who not only was most likely high rank, but was also purely DPS-specced - DPS specs rely on burst; my (rank 40) mage is very weak against survivable builds, when I run deep DPS builds.
    • You've come back to the PvP fight using a world grinding spec - you raid, but I'm sure you'd never think of entering a raid in a PvP spec or wearing PvP gear.
    • It's OPvP; by definition unbalanced and random. Some days, it'sa raid full of people closing a PvP rift, other days it's just me vs a raid-full on the Defiant side. Balanced PvP, if it ever happens, happens in Warfronts. OPvP is a glorious mess, sometimes 10v1, sometimes 1v10.

    So although I agree that the on-ramp for new players at lvl 50 is *harsh*, and really does need to be smoothed some more (because no-one wants to be a sheep) - this is not an example of the problems that new players face in PvP.

  10. #25
    Prophet of Telara Kaelani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    I work and decide a lot based on logic or rationality. I can't think of a rational or logical reason I would re-level or be required to. If you are talking about men in black flashing my brain then me re-leveling a rogue in current day, I probably would. I don't see why I would ever 'go back', because I already did that. It's a weird question to answer because it's a situation that can't really happen exclusively with no other surrounding details.
    Fair enough. Let me ask it a different way.

    It was difficult to work your way up through the early ranks.
    Was that struggle worth the gameplay you now enjoy as an R40?

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegimatic View Post
    Trion nerfed the PvP "grind" to almost laughable from what it was at launch.
    If you started at launch you had it easy, everyone was r1, you only had to get to r6, there were no HK/ID or even r8 weapons, no one had 70k of PA, etc.
    Last edited by Flimble; 05-03-2012 at 11:05 AM.

  12. #27
    Ascendant Puzzlebox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flimble View Post
    If you started at launch you had it easy, everyone was r1, you only had to get to r6, there were no HK/ID or even r8 weapons, no one had 70k of PA, etc.
    You had sabs, warriors wiping entire groups with titan strike, and templar clerics.

    People were still getting gibbed just *** badly and there was no premade queue. Solo queuers could see the same premade in black garden for ten games straight.
    r40 puzzlybox <rise of mayhem> whoo whoo
    r40 pizzabox wheeeeeeeee

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  13. #28
    Ascendant Anuhart's Avatar
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    This is really quite weird.

    In PvP, players are the content, less players - less opponents - less content.

    There is a clear 'gate' in front of anyone new or even veteran wanting to get into PvP at 50, even flagging on a PvE shard to give it a go. You are basically going to get blown up in no time at all.

    Yet, when anybody tries to point out that the game actually discourages people from starting PvP, the general consensus from R 40's is to veto any suggestions of bettering the system, encouraging more people and leveling out the playing field.

    Turning down the chance of more 'content'.
    Turning down the chance of more even matched PvP.
    In favour of less 'content'.
    In favour of faceroll PvP.

    Then complain that PvP is dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by View Post
    You obviously know nothing about Laethys, have you tried him?
    I don't log in anymore.

  14. #29
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    So many whiners. There is always, ALWAYS going to be someone who complains about pvp. PVP skill is a bell curve. A small percentage of the population will be horrible, a small percent will be elite, and most of you will be just average. The problem is most people think they are better than they are and want to blame their lack of relevancy on anything they can (gear, builds, class imbalance etc). Meanwhile, the people who are actually good suffer through the same perceived disadvantages everyone else is, only instead of complaining, they make it work. Every class has it's great players who are successful regardless of other conditions. They will beat players of lesser skill/experience but greater gear and/or class imbalance. Those who got beat will look at their gear and see they are full p40, look at the person that beat them and see they are p35, and then start to save their ego's by blaming it on class imbalance or whatever else they can figure up. PVP requires a wide range of skill that includes physical dexterity, excellent hand-eye coordination, thorough understanding of class mechanics, how to exploit and or manipulate those mechanics, terrain exploitation (by exploit I do not mean illegal), tactics and strategy that are dynamic, specific and capable of being changed on the fly, excellent and fluid movement, knowledge of CC and counters and on and on. People want to be good at all of that, but the fact of the matter is only a few truly are. Stop complaining, take what you've been given, and make it work. If you don't want to put the work in to it then go do something substantially easier.
    Unrated -- Now show me on this doll where the mean rogue touched you.

  15. #30
    Plane Walker Ashrai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puzzlebox View Post
    You had sabs, warriors wiping entire groups with titan strike, and templar clerics.

    People were still getting gibbed just *** badly and there was no premade queue. Solo queuers could see the same premade in black garden for ten games straight.
    ^^This

    I ranked up on the Faeblight/Seastone/Sunrest cluster. Defiants would wait until early evening to log on during weekends because otherwise you got your teeth kicked in by true Premades. No q separation then. You just knew you were going to lose over and over and over. No rank matching, just newbies up against full Premades of LiD, BiS, etc. No bonus weekends to at least make the loss at least bearable either.

    The whole arguement about "well everyone was Rank 1" doesn't hold. Because that did not last for very long at all. In fact I'd say the division was much wider then, or perhaps it just felt like it.

    All I can say to the OP is- if you want to PVP then that's how it is. And even at R40 with all your gear and all your enchants and all your trees filled, there will always be someone who can kill you because when you get to a situation where all those things are equal then skill (or reaction time or strategy or whatever you want to call it) will then come into play. At least gear and enchants you have the same access to as everyone else. The other deciding factors can't be bought off a vendor.
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