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Thread: Stealth & PvP Balance

  1. #1
    Rift Chaser Riftologist's Avatar
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    Default Stealth & PvP Balance

    The ability to roam a warfront without being seen is very powerful. It is a huge advantage. Where is the hard counter to this? Where is the balance? AoE spam is unacceptable and lame but we use what we have so spam stays on the menu. One of the advantages Rift has over other MMO's is that it gives players alot of choices.

    Mage- DPS, Support, Heal. Rogue- Melee/Range DPS, Tank, Support. Warrior- Tank, DPS, etc... All at the click of a button.

    How about giving one of these classes the ability to become a Stealth Hunter so to speak? If one side has a ton of Stealthers... no problem go go Thief Catcher mode! Here's some ideas-

    - Mage: Ward of Detection or a debuff that removes stealth.

    - Cleric: I understand you guys/gals have a nice debuff that counters stealth ... how about giving one of your spells the Vamp Munitions treatment. You cast X spell... does damage .. places your debuff automatically on Mr. Stealther.

    - Warrior: Beast Master is really in tune with his environment and his pet just loves them Stealthers!

    - Rogue: Thief Catcher spec .. Stealthers hate this guy and try to avoid him whenever possible.

    Being a Stealther and jumping out of the shadows on top of someone is a fun and satisfying experience when your on the giving end. - but - Trion should provide its players a few more ways to turn the tables on Mr. Stealter.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    The hard counter to stealth is the fact that any spec that revolves around it sucks.
    ~Quiescent

  3. #3
    Ascendant Hartzekar's Avatar
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    Most rogues Incapacitate you first, which lets you know you're about to be hit. 2nd, most rogues start with Expose Weakness, which let's you know they're coming. So just pop a CD, Stoneshield or Predictable Movements (reflecting a Jagged Strike is aweomse) if you're a warrior works well, and let them attack you.
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  4. #4
    Ascendant Credo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaros View Post
    The hard counter to stealth is the fact that any spec that revolves around it sucks.
    51 Sin can take out Mages wearing quest greens. It is meant to be feared.
    Even free cost too much now

  5. #5
    Telaran
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    Default C'mon now...

    Nah I've dropped hella "elite players" as 51 sin. Granted its survivability isnt the best. But the punch is there (especially since 1.8). But that's what a true glass cannons all about. Run it with 15 bd for some dope utility. That'll help keep you alive. And I have no idea who most of the rogues are on here anymore except for q, if you're having trouble using sin affectively it's cuz you suck at it. And zaros im surprised you don't use it or at least see the fun. You ****in kite ppl to oblivion. It's the same thing just kite and Los/stealth instead of pew pew. I know way more overall dmg tho as mm... Still...
    Last edited by thechair; 04-28-2012 at 09:07 PM.

  6. #6
    Rift Chaser Riftologist's Avatar
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    Apothecary- Ability to craft potions and/or elixirs that provide stealth detection.

    Runecrafter- New runes that a player can augment their gear with. Tradeoff is stealth detection for less damage, life, etc.

    Artificer- Creates special sunglasses that are bind on equip, affords stealth detection, and look really cool on the character model. Trade off here is you're not using your normal head item so you lose out on the stats it provides.

    PvP Planar Attunement- Detection bonuses
    Last edited by Riftologist; 04-28-2012 at 09:57 PM.

  7. #7
    Plane Walker
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    Not sure what you mean by "hard counter". But if you meant something that can just plain ole detect stealth as if it weren't there then that would be stupid. But if you meant just having abilities in which it might make it easier to detect stealthed players then that already exists, in more forms than one. On top of that the "stealth" ability itself has levels of effectiveness which require talent points to get it's full potential. Some of the most effective melee pvp builds only get the base stealth. 51 sin can pack a punch against the right class, in the right situation, when the wheather is nice, on Tuesdays. It's way too situational to be effective in warfronts. But the day they make 51 sin as viable as my current melee build (which is not a RS build, fyi) I'm there, and I'm sure I'll give you all the reason in the world to start QQ'ing about stealth.
    Unrated -- Now show me on this doll where the mean rogue touched you.

  8. #8
    Rift Chaser Riftologist's Avatar
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    "Not sure what you mean by "hard counter". But if you meant something that can just plain ole detect stealth as if it weren't there then that would be stupid. But if you meant just having abilities in which it might make it easier to detect stealthed players then that already exists, in more forms than one."

    Hello Emanresu,

    I am advocating for hard and not so hard counters. I'll share with you some examples.

    Hard Counter: Ward of detection .. Mage places it on the ground. Mr. Stealther enters it, he is 100% exposed.

    Normal counter: Mr. Stealther is happily incapacitating 2 players over and over again while they try to cap Vault. Their efforts are futile and options limited because they can't see the Stealther. Suddenly Beast Master Warrior shows up with his pet Sparky. This change of events disturbs Mr. Stealther as he begins to back way the heck off. Because he understands if he gets too close, or hangs around too long, Sparky will pick up on him and he's looking hungry.

    My opinion ... Players having the option to invest their limited resources in countering Stealth is a good thing and just as legitimate a playstyle as someone who chooses to invest in 51 Sin. Instead of only abilities that "might" make it easier to detect a Stealther. There would be options that "will and do" detect Stealth. Obviously it's up to Trion to determine the how, if, and when, this feature gets implemented since they get paid the big $$$.
    Last edited by Riftologist; 04-29-2012 at 09:20 AM.

  9. #9
    General of Telara
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    I think that stealth should be powerful.

    But like anything there should be debuffs that can help mitigate the ability. For example a mage spell with appropriate cooldown that sees through stealth, or pets that aren't fooled by stealth, (they use smell and attack) that kind of thing.

  10. #10
    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    I don't think stealth is a prominent enough issue to warrant all these counters.
    ~Quiescent

  11. #11
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    If you guys aren't careful they will go the Eq2 route and you can buy 10m see invis/stealth consumables on the AH that are crafted.
    New round up of some high rank matches
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  12. #12
    Ascendant Inixia's Avatar
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    stealth is a really strong move... esp in open world pvp bc it basically allows the person to setup and control the appraoch and to avoid undesireable encounters. but the thing is stealth specs aren't out of line when you include everything atm. A lot of top end specs have similarly powerful mixes of dmg and utility (pyrodom, mm, etc..). I actually think the top end viability across callings is pretty balanced atm (although a few slight issues persist- cleric might need a slight boost in certain specs, etc..). The main issue isn't really one of top end viability but of viable diversity imo.
    Last edited by Inixia; 04-29-2012 at 11:03 AM.

  13. #13
    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inixia View Post
    The main issue isn't really one of top end viability but of viable diversity imo.
    Spot on.
    ~Quiescent

  14. #14
    Telaran Zardoyi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inixia View Post
    stealth is a really strong move... esp in open world pvp bc it basically allows the person to setup and control the appraoch and to avoid undesireable encounters. but the thing is stealth specs aren't out of line when you include everything atm. A lot of top end specs have similarly powerful strengths (pyrodom, mm, etc..). I actually think the top end viability across callings is pretty balanced atm (although a few slight issues persist- cleric might need a slight boos in certain specs, etc..). The main issue isn't really one of top end viability but of viable diversity imo.

    Agree , I believe once ID weapons start filling rogue hands Sin specs are going to become a crazy hard hitting spec .

    Currently there are 1-2 rogues that already hit like trucks in sin specs in WF's but there are not many ppl running full sin.
    Rift PVP - Where Skill means Nothing and gear means everything~

  15. #15
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riftologist View Post
    "Not sure what you mean by "hard counter". But if you meant something that can just plain ole detect stealth as if it weren't there then that would be stupid. But if you meant just having abilities in which it might make it easier to detect stealthed players then that already exists, in more forms than one."

    Hello Emanresu,

    I am advocating for hard and not so hard counters. I'll share with you some examples.

    Hard Counter: Ward of detection .. Mage places it on the ground. Mr. Stealther enters it, he is 100% exposed.

    Normal counter: Mr. Stealther is happily incapacitating 2 players over and over again while they try to cap Vault. Their efforts are futile and options limited because they can't see the Stealther. Suddenly Beast Master Warrior shows up with his pet Sparky. This change of events disturbs Mr. Stealther as he begins to back way the heck off. Because he understands if he gets too close, or hangs around too long, Sparky will pick up on him and he's looking hungry.

    My opinion ... Players having the option to invest their limited resources in countering Stealth is a good thing and just as legitimate a playstyle as someone who chooses to invest in 51 Sin. Instead of only abilities that "might" make it easier to detect a Stealther. There would be options that "will and do" detect Stealth. Obviously it's up to Trion to determine the how, if, and when, this feature gets implemented since they get paid the big $$$.

    Stealth is a defining characteristic of rogues. So if you want to go there, then we should also have Ward of Death, rogue plants it in the ground and everyone in a certain radius is immune to heals (ie cannot receive them). That is a hard counter to healers, of which healing is a defining characteristic.
    Unrated -- Now show me on this doll where the mean rogue touched you.

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