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Thread: Revisiting the idea of "arena"

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    Ascendant LOveRH's Avatar
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    Default Revisiting the idea of "arena"

    Revisiting the idea of "arena"

    I know from my experience from Rift PvP forums when players hear the word "arena" they cringe. I'm sorry if you are doing it right now. I want to get away from those who hear this word and think right away that it is a negative thing. That adding something like this it could only result in hurting Rift's PvP content. I know some of you have past experiences with arena's in WoW and how things worked and didn't work, but i want to go past that and see what they really offer to PvPers in Rift. I really want in Rift a completive PvP environment that isn't subjected to mocks and taunts about gear disparity or a broken system. I want a system that promotes a healthy team environment and helps players think strategically from beginning and end. In warfronts today Rifts system is passively forcing players to not run premades by subjecting them in long queues (I'm not saying that i'm promoting premades roflstomping verse pugs). Rift should be promoting team play not making a system that slaps players on the wrist for wanted to play with their friends or wanting to play competitively on a voice chat server. Right now let's face, in warfronts as they are right now are doing nothing to boost Rift's competitive PvP side. There is just too much problems for them to be ever deemed balanced, fair or truly rewarding.

    We all know if we want change the first step is to offer your ideas. I really feel like the Rift Pvp community is really good at whining and not serious about posting constructive threads of what we want and giving pointers and facts behind it. There are a hand for of players who do post their ideas but let me tell you there is like x20 more theres of whiners who just want players on PvP forums to hold their hand and agree with them on how messed up PvP in rift is now a days. This is not how you get change. You have to really think about what you want for PvP and be proactive about it. So I'm not here to win support for my idea, but get input from the community and get their thoughts about it. Hell, i don't even want you to agree with me just to have some constructive back and through on how we get some competitive PvP in the game we all love.

    So let's talk guys. This is ideas i been pondering for a while and i want input on it. By doing this I hope i can also promote others to share their ideas because i know there are some really creative minds out there. =)

    My Idea for a 'arena' system in Rift:
    How it would work: Queue up as a group of 5 just like you would if you were entering a dungeon but have 1 healer 1-2 support and others are dps, (should a tank be a support? maybe!).
    Once entering the PvP instance you will be defaulted the highest level of gear that you could get from grinding out normal warfronts. This idea is from GWs and i think it would be the best route to go. Your weapons will be defaulted as well. In this instance you cannot switch specs, take off or replace your defaulted gear and your PvE PA trees are deactivated.

    Why this? This removes the imbalance arugements of HK/ID vs PvP gear, disparities between players and gear different and removes the PvE PA which i'm sure people would complain about. I'm not sure what to do with PvP war PA tree. Maybe max it out if it is going to be truly 'balanced'?
    Ranking: You can be ranked in the system that is used for leaderboards right now (or as i call it the Starcraft 2 ladder system). Bronze to diamond. As you (and/or your premade) will be placed in higher ranking queues. If you win your ranking goes up, if you lose your ranking goes down. This will promote running with your own premade. If you do this your premade will be ranked not you.

    If you all aren't sure how Starcraft 2 ladder system works when ranking up ill explain (because i feel like it would be a good idea to start on if we went this route). In Starcraft 2, if you were ranked bronze. To be promoted to you will have to face bronze players. After you are constantly winning from this players you will be randomly placed in a queue with players that are silver ranked. If you managed to so beat these players more than 50% of the time. You will be ranked up to silver. If you are a bronze player looking to be promoted and you cannot beat players who are ranked silver 50% of the time your rank will stay bronze but since you keep winning verses bronze players you will be most likely ranked 1 in your bronze division.

    I really liked how Starcraft 2 ladder system works but can it be successful in Rift PvP environment? Rift successfully released leaderboards so implementing such a system wouldn't be that difficult. I only foresee one problem with this ranking system.

    Promote with Sc2 ranking system:
    Is there enough skill disparity in Rift PvP community? When you compare to chess and other strategy games that require knowledge and variable amount of skill to play, do you feel Is there enough combinations of differences between using different abilities, kiting and reactionary skills to make a successful skill ranking? Honestly it is hard to tell. I can see a difference from a fresh pvper and from someone like Bleeds but how about everyone in between?
    Rewards: Rewards would be costumes that look badass enough to have a reason to rank up. There would also be 'skill rewards' that can be gained when you rank up.

    Why costumes and not stated pvp gear? I really feel like this is what ruined pvp in the first place. Yes, stated pvp gear gives people a form of progression and making it 'easier' to take down lower geared players as a reward. That i don't like about this is the whole idea of competitive pvp is not that you win because of having more stats, i want to get away from this and enforce that if you play your best you will win. By adding stated pvp gear it would conflict with competitive pvp based on skill. Intern it also opens up arguments that players only won because of their gear and not the amount of effect they put in to take someone down. I really have no idea why on earth anyone would make one pvp gear better stats over lower gear. It just causes too many problems. If anyone as a better idea for pvp gear rewards I'm all ears but truly i don't see another way around this.

    How skill rewards work:
    I was thinking about this idea. I wanted to have skill rewards to force players to think in combat and also organize/coordinative using abilities that can help the team as a whole. This skill rewards cannot casted on yourself. You would be forced to cast it on someone else on your team. This will also passively force you to think as a team and help your team succeed for you to succeed. These skills would not turn the tide of battle for players who don't understand how to use them property. In the hands of someone who in organized with their team is when these 'reward skills' can be a live saver. For example: Having a ability that can cast a 1k shield on a healer or increase the crit rate by 50-100 by one player. I was also pondering the thought of having certain skills to be used by different classes. I thought about this and i was thinking might help again passively forcing players to have a diverse team. Not queuing with three warriors for dps but mixing it up depending on what skills the ranking system as to offer.

    Thoughts? Ideas? Input?
    Last edited by LOveRH; 04-28-2012 at 09:45 AM.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    Blunt point blank, arena is my sig. That is a level of gameplay and fairness and rulesets not made for MMOS. I'd prefer they stick to what they do best, "warfront" ques and open world pvp and expand their ideas from those home bases. To make arena they need to go to a new stadium branched off from their current one. On top of my doubt of it working, it creates a huge side project that always runs unparalell with their game model right now. If I want to 1 v 1 people I have tools to do it properly and in a better demonstrative way. Not Rift :/ I don't want them to try to mimic something I once loved, I'd rather them build upon what I've obviously enjoyed for a year already.

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    Last edited by Violacea; 04-28-2012 at 10:05 AM.
    New round up of some high rank matches
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    Plane Walker
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    I am pro arena. I don't like the idea of having only 5v5's expecially as suggested by the OP where the composition of the team is almost pre-determined. If I want to run an all dps 5s team, thats my prerogative. I would like the same WoW model of 2s, 3s and 5s, with Rated WF's. I would like to see gear, titles, mounts awarded based on performance throughout a season. However, the gear accumulated through arena and/or Rated WF's could only be worn in those instances, exact costume replicas could be worn at any time. A Rank 1 champion would not be able to wear his/her actual arena gear in regular WF's, world pvp etc. I don't want to see a standardized gear set as a requirement. People should be able to customize their gear to optimize their chosen roles.

    Now, for what I've observed to be the prime reason people don't like arena (which is false, imo, most people just aren't that successful and in a world where trophy's get handed out to last place, the sense of entitlement prevails though they've done nothing to earn it) is the class imbalance it "creates". There will always be class imbalance. Period. Further more, one of the worst things that happened in WoW, is that the classes all became too normalized. They all were given the same abilities with different names, cast times and cooldowns. Classes need to be different, but equivalent. Thats a tricky equation to solve. Arena, at least as it pertains to pvp, will actually point out, in great clarity, class imbalance. Here is the kicker, in my opinion: WoW was unwilling to create a differentiation in an ability's usefullness in pve vs pvp. It was requested by the playerbase several times, and addressed by the dev's. Their response was that they felt it would make it too complicated for the player. In Rift, however, we've already seen the dev's here start to create that differentiation (most notably and recently through cleric heals). If the dev's are willing to pursue this course, they have a much better chance at balancing classes (solving the eqation) in both pve and pvp, and arena will have a much better chance of being welcomed by more players.

    Just my 3 cents.
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    Shadowlander
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    fook arenas, bring more world pvp, thats what rift is about, not lil crappy arenas for people to try & grow e-peens, theres CS & GW's for that ;)

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    Ascendant Hartzekar's Avatar
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    The thing is, this game isn't balanced around small matches. Even 5 vs. 5 would be extremely harmful to balance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartzekar View Post
    The thing is, this game isn't balanced around small matches. Even 5 vs. 5 would be extremely harmful to balance.
    I agree, 5v5 is a bit on the small side. It should be 10v10 for "competitive" only. Of course, there should be options for 5v5 for bragging rights duels and of course, pug play up to 10v10. However, before arena is placed into the game, Trion would need to create a PvP skill rule set for all the classes. That way, they can attempt to balance all the classes without affecting the PvE side. This would be the only acceptable way for me.
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    Rift Chaser kronous's Avatar
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    be great if there was an ability to do cross server duels.

    there are a few good players i would like to fight based on warfront battles, but you can never 1vs1.

    I wouldnt just like to fight anyone, i would like to go up against the better players.

    problem is an arena where a rank 40 goes up against a rank 10. that needs to be avoided.

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    Rift Chaser kronous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adastra View Post
    I agree, 5v5 is a bit on the small side. It should be 10v10 for "competitive" only. Of course, there should be options for 5v5 for bragging rights duels and of course, pug play up to 10v10. However, before arena is placed into the game, Trion would need to create a PvP skill rule set for all the classes. That way, they can attempt to balance all the classes without affecting the PvE side. This would be the only acceptable way for me.
    what do u mean by the pvp skill rule set?

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    Rift Chaser psionicalpha's Avatar
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    I'd be all for some kind of competitive PVP system, and I will admit I don't have even the foggiest idea of what that system should be, however I do know that arena isn't it. If anyone thinks that classes are imbalanced now, it will be 20 times worse once PVP is done in smaller groups. When you're playing with 10, 15, or 20 people - individual over-performing or under-performing abilities mean less because its spread out among a large group of people, however once that group becomes 2v2, 3v3, or 5v5 with no respawning, then those abilities become a lot worse.

    The extreme example of this is say I have an ability that I can use once every 2 minutes that insta-gibs a single person. In the current warfront setup, that may net me a few extra kills during the match, however is unlikely to turn the tide of the battle one way or another, especially as theres a high likelihood that there are people on the enemy team that have the same ability (making it, overall, more balanced).

    In a 2v2 match, however, if there isn't someone on the enemy team with that same ability, it immediately makes it a 2v1 match and is absurdly over powered.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kronous View Post
    what do u mean by the pvp skill rule set?
    Lets just say, every skill that needs to be adjusted for PvP will have a PvP "version" of the skill, or at least it will behave differently. In a way, Trion already does this for some of the skills in game already. I guess, I'm indirectly asking for a new set of skills that are basically meant for PvP only (new souls for PvP perhaps?). That way, Trion can nerf/buff those skills all they want without affecting PvE.
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  11. #11
    Soulwalker
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    Default arena: my 2 cents

    1. everyone is ported in with same tier gear, (like to how it was on wow's arena tourney).
    2. only pvp weapons can be used (but fix the hit problem with melee)
    3. rewards should only be titles, mounts, or pets. no weapons or armor
    4. make it the best of 2 out of 3 (or 3 out of 5) to rule out any computer issues (lost several in wow to teams we should've beat due to a team mate of mine not getting queue pop or disconnecting)

    if this is done, i will participate.

    that said, i don't like the idea of arenas being "end game pvp" in fact it shouldn't be. just something else to do and enjoy.

    i know who the good players are, in fact, anyone that does warfronts a lot, know who they are too. so, i don't understand how it could be seen as a "epeen" contest.

    the problem comes in when you are forced to do something to acquire what you need to be viable, (ie: having to arena to get weapons/gear)

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    Ascendant LOveRH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiola View Post
    1. everyone is ported in with same tier gear, (like to how it was on wow's arena tourney).
    2. only pvp weapons can be used (but fix the hit problem with melee)
    3. rewards should only be titles, mounts, or pets. no weapons or armor
    4. make it the best of 2 out of 3 (or 3 out of 5) to rule out any computer issues (lost several in wow to teams we should've beat due to a team mate of mine not getting queue pop or disconnecting)

    if this is done, i will participate.

    that said, i don't like the idea of arenas being "end game pvp" in fact it shouldn't be. just something else to do and enjoy.

    i know who the good players are, in fact, anyone that does warfronts a lot, know who they are too. so, i don't understand how it could be seen as a "epeen" contest.

    the problem comes in when you are forced to do something to acquire what you need to be viable, (ie: having to arena to get weapons/gear)
    Sir, how can you not see this being a epeen contest? I have seen epeen contests for chest hair got god sakes (don't ask). You really think there would be no epeen contests for arena based pvp?

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    Rift Chaser kronous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adastra View Post
    Lets just say, every skill that needs to be adjusted for PvP will have a PvP "version" of the skill, or at least it will behave differently. In a way, Trion already does this for some of the skills in game already. I guess, I'm indirectly asking for a new set of skills that are basically meant for PvP only (new souls for PvP perhaps?). That way, Trion can nerf/buff those skills all they want without affecting PvE.
    fair points, but i think the first step is getting Trion to commit to providing an arena

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    Ascendant LOveRH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kronous View Post
    fair points, but i think the first step is getting Trion to commit to providing an arena
    Sadly they said they weren't planning to have one. I would be happy if they made any attempts to create competitive angle to the Rift pvp but i really just don't see it happening without an 'arena' based system.

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    Rift Chaser kronous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LOveRH View Post
    Sir, how can you not see this being a epeen contest? I have seen epeen contests for chest hair got god sakes (don't ask). You really think there would be no epeen contests for arena based pvp?
    it would be seen as an e peen contest by some people.

    but i dont think thats neccessarily a bad thing?

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