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Thread: Twinking and You - A gamers guide to dealing with the massive imbalance.

  1. #1
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    Default Twinking and You - A gamers guide to dealing with the massive imbalance.

    So, given the nature of PvP and the nature of the inept I feel a need for clarity has arisen.

    Let's examine Twinking:

    1. Twinking, creates an imbalance in the leveling process of Rift.

    How? I've personally witnessed 1 Twink shut down an entire WF. The scores were ridiculously tilted in favor of the Twink team. We're talking an 80% point imbalance.The matches were over in record time and everyone on the Twink team received insanely quick experience, I believe I watched a mage gain 3 levels in a matter of hours.

    2. Puts a black eye on Rift as an MMO.

    Frankly anyone coming into Rift at this time is going to experience very one-sided PvP. While some may enjoy that the vast majority will find it very unappealing. No one likes playing a game where 1 over geared adversary can win a match without effort.

    3. Dispelling the 'Good' Twink myth.

    If you were even remotely good at your class, if you had an inkling of how to use them you wouldn't feel the need to overcompensate. You rely on your gear to carry you, not your skill. So frankly over gearing and establishing a Twink is more about overcoming 'Bad' than it is about skill.

    4. Twinking has historically damaged other MMO's, causing the loss of subs.

    Blizzard, is the most blatant example....Even they recognized the issue and developed alternate BG's for those that chose to level lock.

  2. #2
    Plane Touched Jural's Avatar
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    HugaTree,

    Twinking is here to stay, though. Trion made the decision to let people XP Lock and, in essence, make any bracket their "final bracket" if they wish to do so. Their "p40", so to speak.

    I can only speculate on why Trion decided to do this. But I suspect it is because people were quitting rather than grind their way as cannon fodder from p1 to p40. That is *my* guess. They wanted to reduce the PvP grind from months to days, if you were willing to have a more simple character.

    But the question is, what to do about it to maximize your fun in lower level warfronts.

    I *suspect* Trion is trying to get people to to level in PvE content, and to twink (i.e.gear up) if they want to survive competitive PvP in a gear-based MMO.
    Last edited by Jural; 04-23-2012 at 08:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugatree View Post
    So, given the nature of PvP and the nature of the inept I feel a need for clarity has arisen.

    Let's examine Twinking:

    1. Twinking, creates an imbalance in the leveling process of Rift.

    How? I've personally witnessed 1 Twink shut down an entire WF. The scores were ridiculously tilted in favor of the Twink team. We're talking an 80% point imbalance.The matches were over in record time and everyone on the Twink team received insanely quick experience, I believe I watched a mage gain 3 levels in a matter of hours.
    In lower levels, PvP is insanely quick. Before the XP lock, I could go from 10-19 in an afternoon. Twinking actually slowed this down a fair deal and made the leveling curve a little more in line with PvE, unless it was my team winning.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hugatree View Post
    2. Puts a black eye on Rift as an MMO.

    Frankly anyone coming into Rift at this time is going to experience very one-sided PvP. While some may enjoy that the vast majority will find it very unappealing. No one likes playing a game where 1 over geared adversary can win a match without effort.
    People don't like to lose. No matter what, and will find any reason to scream. Twinks are a very easy target for people who lose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugatree View Post
    3. Dispelling the 'Good' Twink myth.

    If you were even remotely good at your class, if you had an inkling of how to use them you wouldn't feel the need to overcompensate. You rely on your gear to carry you, not your skill. So frankly over gearing and establishing a Twink is more about overcoming 'Bad' than it is about skill.
    My level 19 rogue is NOT twinked. I think I am missing a necklace? No runes on my equipment, I *still* haven't managed to gain noteriety with Quicksilver college, and all my armor is mainly dropped from warfronts, gear I got in the minor amounts of questing I do, PvP gear from gloamwoods and Divine santum, and planar gear.

    WIth just this, I usually dominate my level bracket, especially in library. Those are MY runes, back off! Skill is obtained through constant play. You don't just walk in and expect to be better than everyone else. You learn a build (or in my case, three) and adapt to the warfront.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugatree View Post
    4. Twinking has historically damaged other MMO's, causing the loss of subs.

    Blizzard, is the most blatant example....Even they recognized the issue and developed alternate BG's for those that chose to level lock.
    Twinking was never brought into line in WoW. WIth rift, it has. Aside from level 300 purple augs, there is nothing that a level 19 XP locked toon cannot achieve with a little effort that anyone else cannot achieve.

    I used to buy whetstones off the market for 7g a pop. But someone decided to ramp them up to 25g a pop and so I've stopped buying them and I still kick a lot of behind. Find a level range you want and learn to play.

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    Rift Chaser Stanley Pain's Avatar
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    ITT: OP Posts about not having a single clue about anything.


    If you want to compete in PVP or hell even PVE you need to spend time on gearing your character. Period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley Pain View Post
    ITT: OP Posts about not having a single clue about anything.


    If you want to compete in PVP or hell even PVE you need to spend time on gearing your character. Period.

    Please go sit in the thinking corner until you can come up with something that actually contributes to the conversation. Regurgitating the tired and weak 'Just get better gear' mantra is amongst the weakest arguments in this debate to date....Do yourself a favor, go read some of the WoW posts regarding Twinking, you'll see how effective it was there as well.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    - Losing, to a team of well played individuals is fine, wholly acceptable. However as is the case with Twinks, it has been 1 player carrying an entire team. This is unacceptable. Please reason that out, describe how 1 player carrying an entire team is not only acceptable but to be expected.

    - Blizzard fixed Twinking imbalances completely with alternate BG's for level locks...End of the story the BG's went back to being playable without single players determining the outcome of an BG.

    - Skill is obtained through a combination of play and logic, actually thinking about your class and using them in an appropriate fashion. I'm the very first to admit defeat at the hands of a better player granted they're few and far between but if it's a contest of skill I'll gladly take the loss and the lesson learned from it. However slugging it out with someone who's hitting me for half my health in a single crit isn't cool, where's the fun?

    So given the arguments at hand, I think we could all agree that alternate WF's for level locks would not only be acceptable but desirable for both sides? Think about it, the self proclaimed 'Goods' would have WF's that were worthy of their skill...Yeah I lol'd a bit writing that but still that's the argument isn't it?

    I'll leave you with this 'Free the Twinks! Their skill commands an alternate WF system!'
    Last edited by Hugatree; 04-23-2012 at 04:27 PM.

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    trying to achieve a record for most locked threads are we?
    IM BACK!

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    Ascendant Charlice's Avatar
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    Surely there is something new to cry about by now.
    Why not add to one of the other hundreds of threads on so called twinking.

    Gear up and get a clue. That's probably the best advice you'll get in a twink thread imo.


    Den of Madness | Greybriar | Den of Badness | Derpwood

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugatree View Post
    - Losing, to a team of well played individuals is fine, wholly acceptable. However as is the case with Twinks, it has been 1 player carrying an entire team. This is unacceptable. Please reason that out, describe how 1 player carrying an entire team is not only acceptable but to be expected.
    Losing to a well played team often means getting steam rolled and camped at your spawn. Nothing fun about that. Twinks don't determine the outcome of a match. They don't even remotely tip the balance. The reason they often stand out? Because you saw their name *last* match and spent 15 minutes trying to kill one person who had better support than you. Trust me a solo twink does not dominate, win, or even turn the tide of battle. Teamwork does. Often, the twink is experienced enough to spell out a sound strategy before the match begins, but its up to the team whether or not to follow said strat. Too many times, PUGs get so focused on the wrong objective, they forget the purpose of the warfront. A twink can't help win against stupidity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugatree View Post
    - Blizzard fixed Twinking imbalances completely with alternate BG's for level locks...End of the story the BG's went back to being playable without single players determining the outcome of an BG.
    Yes, and WoW still has what? Millions of subscribers? I'm sure warfront pop every two minutes. I hate waiting 3+ minutes for my own. If 'Level-locked' toons were to be segregated into their own WF, then I guarentee it would be the death of PvP. The DEV's initial, and ONLY concern regarding PvP is length of queue time. Anything that qould jeapordize this, they will not implement. Making a seperate queue state for 'locked toons' would only cause a riot. One Trion will not risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugatree View Post
    - Skill is obtained through a combination of play and logic, actually thinking about your class and using them in an appropriate fashion.
    Yes, and locking a level allows you to 'practice' over and over again. You gain skill, and often times, you don't need 'gear' to obtain skill. Yes, gear *can* give you an advantage, but only if you super-duper deck out, omg level 300 purple augs in level 19 equipment in every slot...With runes, and item enhancements...

    Just having gear in every slot is a good place to start. Locking XP at level 19 and running a few dungeons to get gear will help. winning some gear in Warfronts will help. Buying stuff off the AH will help. There is SO MUCH you can accomplish with such little effort that it amazes me that more people won't do it, instead, think that twinks must die.

    Remember, they're on *your* side as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugatree View Post
    I'm the very first to admit defeat at the hands of a better player granted they're few and far between but if it's a contest of skill I'll gladly take the loss and the lesson learned from it. However slugging it out with someone who's hitting me for half my health in a single crit isn't cool, where's the fun?
    I changed builds from what I had been playing to a new one, and it tottally changed my world. I was confident, self-suffiecient and all-in-all, durable. I didn't *twink* out on my baby rogue, but I switched up my build, and I tell yoiu, people hate to see me in a warfront. Or at least, my enemies do. Would I beat you in a 1 v 1? You betcha, but that's because I've spent my time, level locked, learning and working on who and what my enemies are and what they are capable of just by looking at their buffs. I can tell a lot in a few seconds of inspecting you as I lay in wait to ambush you.

    And once i know you are easy prey....you can be sure I will pick you out of a crowd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugatree View Post
    So given the arguments at hand, I think we could all agree that alternate WF's for level locks would not only be acceptable but desirable for both sides? Think about it, the self proclaimed 'Goods' would have WF's that were worthy of their skill...Yeah I lol'd a bit writing that but still that's the argument isn't it?
    Queue's would take far too long. And the DEv's won't do it. Enough said. Face it, you will have to go get some gear, or find a better build. And perhaps, if you are lucky, you will get a visit from me.

    BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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    I keep seeing people fall back on "WoW this." and "WoW that" when they try to make a point about twinking.

    This ain't WoW!

    Twinking in this game is light years apart from what it was in WoW. In WoW, you had to devote a ton of time, re-run instances over and over again, spend days and days of /played time fishing and a ton of other stuff if you wanted to be a full blown twink.

    In this game, it'll take you maybe 2 days.

    In WoW, there was a huge gap, and I mean HUGE gap, between the average player and a full blown twink.

    In this game, not so much. The gap is nowhere hear as wide in Rift as it was in WoW. If you spend even a moderate amount of time prepping your toon for WF's you can be plenty competitive. You don't need to be a full bore twink to compete with the full bore twinks in this game. You do, however, have to have non-crap gear and you have yo know how to play the game and your class, at least some extent.

    The heart of all these complaints have little to do with people getting trashed by twinks. People are complaining because they don't want to have to put any effort, at all, in their toon before they queue for a WF.

    And, for the record, twinking was an integral part of WoW for 4 years. I seriously doubt that the loss of subs over that period of time had any real impact on the game seeing as they maintained around 10 million subs since BC was released. In fact, I know more people who closed accounts because they screwed up twinking, including entire guilds, than I do who quit because they got spanked in a low level BG.
    Last edited by Meina; 04-23-2012 at 06:46 PM.

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    Losing to a well played team often means getting steam rolled and camped at your spawn. Nothing fun about that. Twinks don't determine the outcome of a match. They don't even remotely tip the balance. The reason they often stand out? Because you saw their name *last* match and spent 15 minutes trying to kill one person who had better support than you. Trust me a solo twink does not dominate, win, or even turn the tide of battle. Teamwork does. Often, the twink is experienced enough to spell out a sound strategy before the match begins, but its up to the team whether or not to follow said strat. Too many times, PUGs get so focused on the wrong objective, they forget the purpose of the warfront. A twink can't help win against stupidity.

    I agree for the most part and appreciate your actually thinking about your response rather falling back to the 'Get Geared' response.
    Having said that tonight, I participated in a WF with a Twink in the 30-39 Bracket. His damage total was 150k...The next closest was 63K. While a WF's with a balance of Twinks may actually balance out this without a doubt illustrates the ridiculous nature of the Twinking imbalance....He was above the combined damage of the 2nd and 3rd places. He without a doubt carried their team.



    Yes, and WoW still has what? Millions of subscribers? I'm sure warfront pop every two minutes. I hate waiting 3+ minutes for my own. If 'Level-locked' toons were to be segregated into their own WF, then I guarentee it would be the death of PvP. The DEV's initial, and ONLY concern regarding PvP is length of queue time. Anything that qould jeapordize this, they will not implement. Making a seperate queue state for 'locked toons' would only cause a riot. One Trion will not risk.

    That entire idea is ridiculous, the 2 people level locked per team out of the remaining 10 wouldn't even come close to slowing queues.Rather, the queues for the level locked Twinks would soar, frankly they aren't as prevalent as is being tendered on these forums.



    Yes, and locking a level allows you to 'practice' over and over again. You gain skill, and often times, you don't need 'gear' to obtain skill. Yes, gear *can* give you an advantage, but only if you super-duper deck out, omg level 300 purple augs in level 19 equipment in every slot...With runes, and item enhancements...

    I'm going to reference the gentleman in the 30-39 bracket again, more than double the next highest damage - He hit me and halved my life in a single attack, you can imagine how long that fight lasted.
    He alone shut down the entire team.Now to further illustrate the point of gearing and level locking, this guy isn't very talented at all....He charges into the group I'm assuming he spams tab cause 1-2 shots is all he needs to drop between 4-5 of us.

    Just having gear in every slot is a good place to start. Locking XP at level 19 and running a few dungeons to get gear will help. winning some gear in Warfronts will help. Buying stuff off the AH will help. There is SO MUCH you can accomplish with such little effort that it amazes me that more people won't do it, instead, think that twinks must die.

    I again appreciate your taking the time to be thoughtful and not degenerate into childish insults. And having read through the other posts, and spoken with several people in the game I really do have a better understanding of what Twinking in Rift is.

    A Twink is the gentleman I described before, pulling more than double the damage of the next highest person. Being well geared doesn't make you a Twink, being so ridiculously over geared that it is impossible for you to fail does.

    Remember, they're on *your* side as well.



    I changed builds from what I had been playing to a new one, and it tottally changed my world. I was confident, self-suffiecient and all-in-all, durable. I didn't *twink* out on my baby rogue, but I switched up my build, and I tell yoiu, people hate to see me in a warfront. Or at least, my enemies do. Would I beat you in a 1 v 1? You betcha, but that's because I've spent my time, level locked, learning and working on who and what my enemies are and what they are capable of just by looking at their buffs. I can tell a lot in a few seconds of inspecting you as I lay in wait to ambush you.

    And once i know you are easy prey....you can be sure I will pick you out of a crowd.


    My issue isn't with my class, I do extraordinary things with my Rog....My issue is that I can't even begin to work my rotation, when within 2-3 seconds of encountering a Twink I'm dead. This is my issue, not people being well geared, but people being so over geared that they can change the tide of a WF.



    Queue's would take far too long. And the DEv's won't do it. Enough said. Face it, you will have to go get some gear, or find a better build. And perhaps, if you are lucky, you will get a visit from me.

    Again the easiest fix would be to create alternate WF's for level locked avatars. The queues would barely register the loss of the Twinks...And yes I get that the Twinks would be subject to painfully long queues but the rest of 99.99% of Trions sub base would be happy.

    BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    Again I appreciate the thought and effort you put forth, and you made a few great points!
    Last edited by Hugatree; 04-23-2012 at 08:47 PM.

  11. #11
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    so you lose a few matches in a bracket your going to be in for a few days... QQ. its not game breaking.

    and i dont have a twink so dont start on that "your just supporting it cause you twink".

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    I just don't get it. If twinks bother you, you will level past them and they will just go down in your history books as a week of few days where you had matches with some xp locked players. If you are into the sub 50 pvp experience, then a twink shouldn't bother you at all, as you would probably become a twink yourself if you truly enjoy the sub 50 pvp and want to hang in those brackets.

    Is it really so bad that leveling up is ruined? It's not like you have to deal with any bracket for a large amount of time, so I don't see where the complaining comes from.

    I guess I'd take a legit concern of twinks if someone decides to stay in the lower level brackets and not gear up. But....who does that? If you like lower level pvp, you'll join them. If you don't, you'll leave them. Where does the problem exist.
    New round up of some high rank matches
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugatree View Post

    Having said that tonight, I participated in a WF with a Twink in the 30-39 Bracket. His damage total was 150k...The next closest was 63K. While a WF's with a balance of Twinks may actually balance out this without a doubt illustrates the ridiculous nature of the Twinking imbalance....He was above the combined damage of the 2nd and 3rd places. He without a doubt carried their team.



    I'm going to reference the gentleman in the 30-39 bracket again, more than double the next highest damage - He hit me and halved my life in a single attack, you can imagine how long that fight lasted.
    He alone shut down the entire team.Now to further illustrate the point of gearing and level locking, this guy isn't very talented at all....He charges into the group I'm assuming he spams tab cause 1-2 shots is all he needs to drop between 4-5 of us.
    Warriors are stupidly overpowered. No...even a bad tank and squash his opponents. They are stupid and yes, they can top the DPS charts easily. They claim they have no survivability, but I guarentee, they have it in spades.

    About the only counter to a tank is a mage, and since tanks kill the back liners first with their gap closers, everyone else is easy pickings.

    You can't limit *twinking* to sad 1.8 over-buff.

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    Ultimately the logic for twinking is specious. Let's say twinks are present. And they make a difference. They make a lot of difference especially when A) thy happen mostly on one side (defiants), and B) they hit for about half of my HP in one stroke. No exaggeration- had a 5000+ Hp warrior in the 30s bracket hitting everyone for 1800 a pop. Consider that Im 37, in world event purples and extraplanar gear and have 2800 Hp.

    The argument for non twinks and twinks to coexist in the same warfront is tenuous - queue times. Fine. Let's take it that it is twinks and not the mercenary system that has contributed to lowered queue times. I would then argue it is the quality of the warfront(how much fun I had by being able to make a contribution) is being sacrificed for a higher quantity of warfronts. In fact this higher quantity doesn't mean much. Most games with twinks on one side end extremely quickly due to the extreme domination of that side. Library runes get held by one side (unless they decide to not hold them and steamroll the weaker side. So we have more games that end in minutes because of domination, or more games where we sit and get steamrolled by the 5000 Hp warriors while they shrug off my dots or fireballs.

    Twinks so far propose two arguments for newer players facing twinks. 1. Gear up and fight back, because it is "quick and easy". 2. Level up and go on to the next bracket.

    1. Gear up:
    This is an option that is very limited for newer players who do not have 50 mains to boost their leveling currencies and time. It is also not as accessible or easy to be competitive as you might assume. The extraplanar epics, for example require multiple sourcestones and no small amount of planarite that need multiple zone events (unless you use vouchers from a main) to acquire. One would also argue the time spent to be competitive for the short while before you move on to the next bracket (where you get rolled again) is just pointless- unless you become a twink yourself.
    I have been actively monitoring for such zone events with the rift app (abysmal win rates btw) and you know, they aren't as common in lvl 30 zones as you think they are. I've taken about a week to get two extraplanar items. even with those and a couple other purples from the world event, I'm sitting at 2800 hp while I've seen people stomp around with minimum 4000 Hp.

    Point being the argument for "highly accessible" gear doesn't hold water. I still need to take the time to find out which runes meant for 50s are usable on lower gear (an exploit as clear as any). I still need to spend a disproportionate amount of time PVEING in order to be pvp competitive. In fact I'd wager that you NEED to xp lock to prevent out leveling while you are gathering your "competitive" gear!

    So the bottom line is that we need to spend so much resources (to be comepetitivd in a low level bracket) just to "keep up" with twinks that we become twinks ourselves. I don't get why people don't see this.

    Option 2 for new players. Level up and get out to the next bracket.

    The "let's just dump you to the next bracket of twinks" argument. It doesn't solve anything. From 19, I graduate to 29 twinks to 39 twinks to 49 twinks. And the disparity at higher brackets are even more severe - you know this is true.

    Ultimately the people that twinks callously label as "bads" and take enjoyment in steamrolling are the new players. Not less skilled, mind you. Less experienced and less geared.

    These guys watch you veteran twinks laugh roll them in the 19 bracket. The 29 bracket. The 39 bracket.

    And the only way to survive is become a twink themselves. Or more likely, drop their subscription because it plainly isn't fun to get 2/3 shotted in the span of a stun. When they leave in droves, the game suffers and everyone suffers.

    The final question is: why are you competitive pvpers so insistent on maintaining a disparity in gear? Most pvpers in other games fight based on skill and gear is a secondary concern.

    Tldr version:
    Option 1 gear up and fight. - not as easy without a 50 main and significant time investment which could be spent on Getting to endgame content. Even if new players do this, they become twinks themselves, making it a unnecessary barrier to leveling and new players yet to experience the game.

    Option 2: level to next bracket - only to get rolled by even more disproportionately powerful opponents? Endless cycle of frustration. More raging ensues.

    Pvp is about competitive fair play. There is clearly a flaw in this fairness (even accounting for the somewhat gear-based nature of mmorpgs) and if you are a competitive pvper you would see that it's skill that should be the primary factor. Not inflated HP pools from expensive augments and pve items that by their nature aren't meant for PVP use.

  15. #15
    Plane Touched Jural's Avatar
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    Here's a thought:

    Maybe the developers KNOW that the people who want a skill-based PvP MMO will be leaving for GW2.

    Maybe Trion has decided that gear-based PvP is their speciality, for people who don't have the best PvP skills, but DO have 40 hours a week of playtime to get the gear and live out their fantasy of being the biggest, baddest PvP toon on the server.

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