+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 29
Like Tree16Likes

Thread: 1.8, The wrong approach to decrease Time To Live

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    14

    Default 1.8, The wrong approach to decrease Time To Live

    There's so many ways to address this, it's mind numbing to try and look at them all, however, Trion has exposed so many shortcomings of their version of PvP with this one patch so letís just look at what their goal was.

    Decrease PvP survivability, obvious number one problem they felt needed addressing in this patch. Unkillable clerics prior to 1.8 did exist to a point, depending on what class was trying to kill them. Thereís no doubt that melee types had it rough against a heal specíd cleric. The other side of the argument is that a heal specíd cleric is not going to kill a melee class. Even if a melee class is having a hard time dealing with waterjet, their escapability should never allow them to be killed by a heal specíd cleric. On the other hand, mana draining a cleric, made/makes them much easier to deal with. Iíve been mana drained many times on my cleric (thanks Tactix) making it brutal to heal anyone let alone myself. Not being able to drink and refresh mana while pots are on cooldown because a pet keeps poking is never fun, but I donít want to lose too much focus on a debate that has many other threads already.

    On the playerís side, there is one thing that makes a game not fun regardless of rank or gear, and thatís being unable to do anything before seeing the respawn button. Getting CCíd then melted or pummeled, completely mana drained/locked down, 1-2 shotted, or melee trained is never fun if youíre on the receiving end. Although the pain train typically takes a little more coordination or just someone willing to mark targets one at a time so everyone knows thereís just one target. Regardless, itís still not fun to just see your team getting mowed down one by one, knowing youíre probably next, and canít do anything about it.

    So what to do? Reducing the healing talents by the amounts they did, aside from addressing the stacking issue, is\was obviously not the best answer to decreasing TTL. A softcap to valor would have been a better way to start. Perhaps 40%, 30%, would be a starting point, but who knows what the best number would be until itís tested. Small incremental PvP healing reductions to various talents (if necessary) in upcoming hotfixes could be added. I will never understand the enormous swings in adjustments that MMOís make. When you look back at the history or just about any MMO thereís always that ďone update or patchĒ that wrecked the game because of massive changes.

    ~TheBeesKnees

  2. #2
    General of Telara Ashh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    953

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountaineer View Post
    There's so many ways to address this, it's mind numbing to try and look at them all, however, Trion has exposed so many shortcomings of their version of PvP with this one patch so letís just look at what their goal was.

    Decrease PvP survivability, obvious number one problem they felt needed addressing in this patch. Unkillable clerics prior to 1.8 did exist to a point, depending on what class was trying to kill them. Thereís no doubt that melee types had it rough against a heal specíd cleric. The other side of the argument is that a heal specíd cleric is not going to kill a melee class. Even if a melee class is having a hard time dealing with waterjet, their escapability should never allow them to be killed by a heal specíd cleric. On the other hand, mana draining a cleric, made/makes them much easier to deal with. Iíve been mana drained many times on my cleric (thanks Tactix) making it brutal to heal anyone let alone myself. Not being able to drink and refresh mana while pots are on cooldown because a pet keeps poking is never fun, but I donít want to lose too much focus on a debate that has many other threads already.

    On the playerís side, there is one thing that makes a game not fun regardless of rank or gear, and thatís being unable to do anything before seeing the respawn button. Getting CCíd then melted or pummeled, completely mana drained/locked down, 1-2 shotted, or melee trained is never fun if youíre on the receiving end. Although the pain train typically takes a little more coordination or just someone willing to mark targets one at a time so everyone knows thereís just one target. Regardless, itís still not fun to just see your team getting mowed down one by one, knowing youíre probably next, and canít do anything about it.

    So what to do? Reducing the healing talents by the amounts they did, aside from addressing the stacking issue, is\was obviously not the best answer to decreasing TTL. A softcap to valor would have been a better way to start. Perhaps 40%, 30%, would be a starting point, but who knows what the best number would be until itís tested. Small incremental PvP healing reductions to various talents (if necessary) in upcoming hotfixes could be added. I will never understand the enormous swings in adjustments that MMOís make. When you look back at the history or just about any MMO thereís always that ďone update or patchĒ that wrecked the game because of massive changes.

    ~TheBeesKnees
    ITT: Bad cleric QQ's about not being OP anymore. If you want to be consistently OP roll a rogue.

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    14

    Default

    You should replace your "quote post reply" macro with the "comprehend post reply" macro.


    ~TheBeesKnees

  4. #4
    Rift Disciple Edany's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    174

    Default

    I love how all of a sudden clerics that were able to surivive (and not do much of anything else btw), are now all of a sudden "bads" - not due to a lack of skill, but because Trion decided to kick PvP Clerics (not PvE - just us PvP Bads) in the sac a few times.

    Now I'm a bad because I get:

    Silenced
    Stunned
    Squirrelled
    Siphoned
    Uncleansable heal debuffed
    Interrupted
    Stunned again
    Don't forget Squirrell!!!!!!!!
    Mana Drained (which was just as effective prior to 1.8)
    Pain Trained (again, just as effective pre 1.8).

    The ONLY thing I had against a good team were some HoTs which could have EASILY been toned down for better balance without gutting PvP healing, which did NOT keep me alive against a skilled player (or players more often) of equal rank.

    Now I get to stand around and blow the 2 instants I have (which do not come even close to mitigating any burst damage), throw out LOLHoTs which again, do nothing but make dps laugh, or stand around and try to cast 1.5 - 3 second ST heals. Pushback was reduced, not eliminated.

    AoE heals also took a nice beat down, yet AoE damage did not.

    Now, keeping in mind that list above, before calling ANY healer a "bad" healer, YOU try ST casted healing in the middle of AoE DPS. That means you are either trying to heal yourself (and not your group), which is pointless. Or you're trying to pick a single target to keep alive through AoE dps - IF you get that cast off - which still means nothing because now it is you and the one person you healed standing around scratching your ***** while the rest of the group has died. Again, pointless.

    I never was, nor did I ever claim to be a great healer. I was fairly decent, but a good melee could take me out, 2 or 3 coordinated together was death for me. Easily.

    Now all of a sudden I (and a lot of other really good healers such as TheBeesKnees - who is a fantastic healer by the way who routinely kicked my butt at it) are suddenly "bad" because we "can't take on 3 - 5 players at a time".

    Newsflash: None of us could take on any skilled players of that number prior to 1.8 either.

    Trion catered to a bunch of bads who wanted to top the dps charts instead of playing any role that could have (and frequently did) mitigate our healing, and finished it off by catering to the PvE Only crowd by making sure that they only kicked PvP players in the nuts along the way - PvE still groovy as ever.

    But hey, everyone is happier singing Kumbaya at the Grave Yard, yeah?

    Yeah...

  5. #5
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountaineer View Post
    A softcap to valor would have been a better way to start. Perhaps 40%, 30%, would be a starting point, but who knows what the best number would be until itís tested. Small incremental PvP healing reductions to various talents (if necessary) in upcoming hotfixes could be added.
    Yeah I'm not sure myself where the QQ part came in. I have no problem with nerfs/adjustments/changes keeping the game balanced. I even posted that reducing healing is fine, but they just should have started with a look at valor, then incremental reductions in healing instead of such a drastic decrease across the board.

    I've seen a few other posts regarding the high valor mitigation being an issue as well so I'm not the only one.


    ~TheBeesKnees

  6. #6
    Rift Disciple thinice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    190

    Default

    I'm copying and pasting something I posted elsewhere:

    "Quote Originally Posted by Tyaus View Post
    They are just gutting Healing in PVP."


    Yeah its sad too. The most fun I have ever had in PVP was in SWG. Simply because the fights could last a very long time, no zerging required and everyone received a good amount of " rep " for the fights.

    Healing makes pvp fights exciting because you don't spend your entire time respawning. The medics in SWG had short rez timers and gear that could proc fast rez's and reset the rez timers. Even area rez's.

    Why nerf healing to "improve" pvp? Correct the mechanics of it so it keeps people from having to zerg and spend forever spawning.

    This type of healing is great for open world pvp even more so than warfront pvp. Think of the possibilities.


    Long story short, fun pvp=less zerging and respawning. Which like it or not means healers need to be able to do their job and be able to REZ on site. Pvp combat rez abilities can't be that hard to add.

  7. #7
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    14

    Default

    PvP combat rez is already in the game, but with a long cooldown. 3/4 of the time I cast it and nobody accepts.

  8. #8
    Rift Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    695

    Default

    Now, keeping in mind that list above, before calling ANY healer a "bad" healer, YOU try ST casted healing in the middle of AoE DPS. That means you are either trying to heal yourself (and not your group), which is pointless. Or you're trying to pick a single target to keep alive through AoE dps - IF you get that cast off - which still means nothing because now it is you and the one person you healed standing around scratching your ***** while the rest of the group has died. Again, pointless.
    If your entire group likes to bunch up together in a giant cuddle ball and refuses to spread out when aoes start falling on them, the problem has nothing to do with mechanics and everything to do with people who like to stand in the fire.


    Guess what, PvErs have been drilled from day 1 that standing in Fire is "bad", maybe PvPers should take a few lessons from that.

  9. #9
    Plane Walker Azchire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    487

    Default

    Sadly I've lost faith in Trion's ability to balance PvP. I've had some hope for a great PvP game in Rift for over a year now, and while there have been steps forward, they're always followed by a step back.

    The glaring problems in PvP right now are:

    -Excessive gear grind discourages new players
    -Massive disparity between player damage and player health
    -Unhealthy distribution of buffs/debuffs
    -Excessive purge abilities, nullifying some classes and not others.
    -Organized team play is inhibited


    The gear grind has been remedied somewhat, but is still easily four times more grindy than any other modern MMORPG. (Over 200 hours of PvP required)

    The disparity of player health and player damage is extreme and is only getting worse with every itemization pass. Players with 6000 HP can hit other players for 1/3 of their health in a single second, as long as said player has lots of valor. Without valor, players could 1 shot each other. That is poor design.

    The goal should be, even without valor, players should need 5 seconds of tearing into another before a kill is earned, Valor would only be tuned to increase 1v1 TTK to 10 seconds. Healing would need to be adjusted likewise, to require 5 seconds of healing to neutralize a kill that would otherwise take 10 seconds without healing. In short, bringing someone from 100% to 1% should take a while, and healing someone from 1% to 100% should also take a while.

  10. #10
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    14

    Default

    Everyone is going to have a different opinion on how long a 1v1 fight should take. Too long, and the one button macromashing community will start complaining. Too short and everyone's playing Respawn instead of Rift.

    When you start getting into 3v1 4v1 focusing, people will be respawing within a second or two if it takes 10sec in 1v1 unless you had some type of damage penalty or survival buff when someone is outnumbered or receiving damage from multiple sources.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Hartzekar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    2,015

    Default

    I'm having Sentinels on my team heal me extremely well. They die faster yes, but if I protect them they are healing monsters.
    Piras@Faeblight
    Elsing@Faeblight
    <Celestial Might> [Retired: Hartzekarr and Greogard]
    My CD is now available for purchase here: https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/opus-1/id580677269

  12. #12
    Champion of Telara
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    1,231

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Azchire View Post
    Sadly I've lost faith in Trion's ability to balance PvP. I've had some hope for a great PvP game in Rift for over a year now, and while there have been steps forward, they're always followed by a step back.

    The glaring problems in PvP right now are:

    -Excessive gear grind discourages new players
    -Massive disparity between player damage and player health
    -Unhealthy distribution of buffs/debuffs
    -Excessive purge abilities, nullifying some classes and not others.
    -Organized team play is inhibited


    The gear grind has been remedied somewhat, but is still easily four times more grindy than any other modern MMORPG. (Over 200 hours of PvP required)

    The disparity of player health and player damage is extreme and is only getting worse with every itemization pass. Players with 6000 HP can hit other players for 1/3 of their health in a single second, as long as said player has lots of valor. Without valor, players could 1 shot each other. That is poor design.

    The goal should be, even without valor, players should need 5 seconds of tearing into another before a kill is earned, Valor would only be tuned to increase 1v1 TTK to 10 seconds. Healing would need to be adjusted likewise, to require 5 seconds of healing to neutralize a kill that would otherwise take 10 seconds without healing. In short, bringing someone from 100% to 1% should take a while, and healing someone from 1% to 100% should also take a while.
    Yes, hp pools are too small by a huge margin. The could just up valor more and reduce healing in pvp more to compensate rather than raise hp if thats easier.

  13. #13
    Plane Walker Azchire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    487

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountaineer View Post
    When you start getting into 3v1 4v1 focusing, people will be respawing within a second or two if it takes 10sec in 1v1 unless you had some type of damage penalty or survival buff when someone is outnumbered or receiving damage from multiple sources.
    The standard of 10s TTK 1v1 would be based on the offender using all his cooldowns, and the victim just standing there taking it. An unrealistic scenario, but I would do my balance work around that as a basis.

    Realistically a duel could take much longer with both players responding with defensive abilities, the TTK in a realistic duel would probably be more like 20-30 seconds. In a 4v1 group situation, a player just running into focus fire would die in a few seconds, yes, but perfect focus fire is rare, and the player would have to both not receive heals, and not use defensive abilities.

  14. #14
    Champion Cime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    594

    Default

    Want to know why 1.8 is broken? Just look no further than 1.7. The increase to valor in 1.7 resulted in increased survivability for everyone. The problem with that is increased survivability means heals are even more "powerful." If people are living longer, it's a far easier time healing them.

    1.8 rolls around and Trion's solution to the mess they gave us in 1.7 is to nerf wardens. I think we can all agree that 90% of the time Trion's definition of "nerf" is a hillbilly beatdown. Lo and behold, wardens are damn near laughable now in regards to survivability. Hell, they're almost as easy to kill as 51 chloro...omg, didn't I make a MOCK prediction that to balance heals Trion would just lower warden survivability to 51 chloro levels? I do recall typing that somewhere in the past...

    I could SO work for Trion! They'd put all my craptastic sarcastic ideas into motion!

    My next prediction? Well, let's see...ooo!

    Now that we have fishing covered, I predict a merging of marriage AND fishing.

    "Hey, nice catch there Bob!"
    "Naw, it's just some fat purple thing. Gonna throw it back." (I made a Bahmi reference! HA!!)

    Now you can go out and "hook" (omg I need more beer) yourself a hubby/wife. No chance of rejection!
    Last edited by Cime; 04-19-2012 at 11:22 AM.
    But at least we can get married now!
    I'll be fishing in Codex...
    Nobodi - R8 Mage Defiant Deepwood
    Somebodi - 19 Rogue Guardian Deepwood (twink wannabe)

  15. #15
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cime View Post
    Want to know why 1.8 is broken? Just look no further than 1.7. The increase to valor in 1.7 resulted in increased survivability for everyone. The problem with that is increased survivability means heals are even more "powerful." If people are living longer, it's a far easier time healing them.
    This was basically my original point and what I've seen others mention as well. They should have looked at valor first to increase TTK or decrease TTL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cime View Post
    Now that we have fishing covered, I predict a merging of marriage AND fishing.

    "Hey, nice catch there Bob!"
    "Naw, it's just some fat purple thing. Gonna throw it back." (I made a Bahmi reference! HA!!)

    Now you can go out and "hook" (omg I need more beer) yourself a hubby/wife. No chance of rejection!
    And this, all I can say is well played.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts