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Thread: Why Are You Penalizing DoTs the Same as Direct Damage?

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple Jack Burton's Avatar
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    Default Why Are You Penalizing DoTs the Same as Direct Damage?

    Valor is a damage mitigation mechanic. It exists as a means to reduce the overall damage in PVP in order to increase a player's longevity in a PVP match. It's a good mechanic, as it prevents players from effectively getting killed in a few short seconds. This allows the opportunity for more tactical gameplay, letting players use more abilities, giving players time to react, heal, use terrain, etc.

    Overall valor is a good thing.

    That being said, damage over time effects already achieve many of the same goals as valor by their very nature. The damage is dealt out slowly over time, giving players time to react, heal, cleanse, use terrain, etc. Yet, in Rift, valor applies the same damage reduction to DoTs as it does to direct damage attacks.

    The only logic behind this that I can think of is "damage is damage, regardless of type". However, this is not true as taking 2.4k damage instantly from a deathblow critical strike and dying does not have the same effect as taking 2.4k of damage from a Dark Touch and dying. In the prior, the player dies immediately, in the latter it takes 16 additional seconds for the person to die, greatly increasing their time to live. Furthermore, most DoT damage can be cleansed, whereas instant damage clearly cannot.

    As it stands in live currently, DoT damage in PVP, with very few exceptions, is abysmal, hitting for amounts not that much different from autoattacks once you consider the amount of time in between DoT ticks.

    Valor has been in the game for many months now and Trion has not addressed this discrepancy. In earlier patches it was probably not seen as much of an issue because players typically had only 25-35% damage reduction due to valor, which was offset by speccing into things like the Archmage PVP soul, which increased damage to players by 15%+. These days, players sport 45-60% damage reduction, depending on spec, and the PVP souls are a distant memory.

    The interaction of DoT damage and Valor should be looked at, in my opinion. At the very least I think it would be informative to hear why Trion believes DoT damage should be treated the same way as direct damage with respect to the valor damage mitigation mechanic.
    Last edited by Jack Burton; 04-19-2012 at 06:10 AM.

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple ltank's Avatar
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    I agree. In my opinion DoT damage in this game has always been pretty lackluster but since I came back to the game a month or so ago I've noticed that it is abysmal. DoT spells were always supposed to do more overall damage and be more mana efficient than Direct Damage spells simply because they take more time to mature. It's been this way since Everquest 1. I don't know why the game designers here broke away from what was a fundamental rule of game design and made overall DoT damage equal to a DD spell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ltank View Post
    I agree. In my opinion DoT damage in this game has always been pretty lackluster but since I came back to the game a month or so ago I've noticed that it is abysmal. DoT spells were always supposed to do more overall damage and be more mana efficient than Direct Damage spells simply because they take more time to mature. It's been this way since Everquest 1. I don't know why the game designers here broke away from what was a fundamental rule of game design and made overall DoT damage equal to a DD spell.
    Completely agree. Dots should not be doing less damage over 16 seconds than one finisher, they should be doing double or triple the total damage. As it stands, dots are crap in this game. Low damage output for extended durations and easily cleansed. Original Everquest had the best DoT system I've ever seen in an mmo...dots had the biggest total damage in the game, just took them awhile to dish that damage out, which is as it should be.

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    Dots are fine. The fact that they take 10 seconds to stack and are constantly wiped (and/or passively removed) are the real issues. Rogue cleanse soul and mage deny can counter 6-8 globals worth of casting in one button press. Clerics can passively remove debuffs with heals or utilize curative waters to get ahead on globals. Meanwhile, a dot mage needs to spend a pvp eternity stacking all those debuffs - and you usually have to do it twice in order to take advantage of your charge.

    Mage dots need three things to be more effective:

    1) 1.0 gcd standard for most standard dots
    2) some form of cleanse resistance and/or backlash proc
    3) for damage mods from charge to boost pre-existing debuffs

    With 50% faster application, reduced vulnerability to cleanse/wipe, and the ability to mod damage without recasting everything, dots will be plenty effective given existing damage stats.

  5. #5
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    I agree with OP and just posted that a reduction in valor would have been a better way to deal with time to kill issue instead of gutting healing. Reduce healing as necessary in followup hotfixes after a valor adjustment. Seems that the high valor mitigation is the bigger issue with the game in it's current state.

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    Last edited by Mountaineer; 04-19-2012 at 07:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by handerhank View Post
    Dots are fine. The fact that they take 10 seconds to stack and are constantly wiped (and/or passively removed) are the real issues. Rogue cleanse soul and mage deny can counter 6-8 globals worth of casting in one button press. Clerics can passively remove debuffs with heals or utilize curative waters to get ahead on globals. Meanwhile, a dot mage needs to spend a pvp eternity stacking all those debuffs - and you usually have to do it twice in order to take advantage of your charge.

    Mage dots need three things to be more effective:

    1) 1.0 gcd standard for most standard dots
    2) some form of cleanse resistance and/or backlash proc
    3) for damage mods from charge to boost pre-existing debuffs

    With 50% faster application, reduced vulnerability to cleanse/wipe, and the ability to mod damage without recasting everything, dots will be plenty effective given existing damage stats.
    But they're not fine. As someone else pointed out earlier, Dots are about attrition and efficiency. Dots should not be doing less total damage over a period of time than instant cast or even 2 sec cast abilities. They should be doing double total damage at a minimum, on top of the things you mentioned in your post, which I agree with. Dot damage is currently far too low to even be effective. Necro dots should be flat out nasty, not something you apply and watch tic for 40-60 damage.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Am0n's Avatar
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    Did they realize that Bleeds are uneffected by valor yet?
    Or did my sneaky ninja trick get nerfed?
    "You lost me at Balance"

  8. #8
    Rift Disciple Jack Burton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Am0n View Post
    Did they realize that Bleeds are uneffected by valor yet?
    Or did my sneaky ninja trick get nerfed?
    I was unaware of this. I haven't played much assassin on my rogue. If this is indeed the case, then i'm completely baffled why other dots are treated differently.
    Last edited by Jack Burton; 04-19-2012 at 08:14 AM.

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple Jack Burton's Avatar
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    Can anyone confirm if bleed dot damage is not affected by valor?

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    Sword of Telara Chancellor Gowron's Avatar
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    I agree, valor should have less of an impact for dots. It's been a LONG time since I've seen a dot based build do consistently well in lvl 50 pvp. Some abilities the game considers a dot like countdown shouldn't be changed though.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Am0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Burton View Post
    Can anyone confirm if bleed dot damage is not affected by valor?
    I would get on, but I havent updated 1.8 yet, and don't feel like gaming atm LOL, I'll check later I am assuming it is still the same though.
    "You lost me at Balance"

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vember View Post
    But they're not fine. As someone else pointed out earlier, Dots are about attrition and efficiency. Dots should not be doing less total damage over a period of time than instant cast or even 2 sec cast abilities.
    You can't have a system where instant dot damage is 2-3x that of nukes for two reasons. Number one: you run the risk of people dying to two instant casts if they can't remove the debuffs. Number two: you would trivialize non-dot damage in pve because dpct is king in that arena.

    After a bit more thought, I've concluded that dot damage is crap in Rift because pyro/dom and pyro/lock end up with way too many instant or near-instant cast nukes AND melee classes hit equally hard with extremely high uptime. In a game like WoW, where hard hitting nukes are usually hardcast and melee dps is reduced by more effective kiting, dots actually seem to function reasonably well as a low-dps, instant cast, always-on attrition factor.

    The only way dots can work in Rift's environment is as a relatively short-term ramp up to higher burst. Basically, you quickly stack 3-4 dots to generate a higher-than-0 baseline for your dps in order to further boost your burst spikes when you begin nuking. This can't happen if the dots are frequently just gone before you start nuking. That's why I say the real issue is cleansing.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Burton View Post
    Valor is a damage mitigation mechanic. It exists as a means to reduce the overall damage in PVP in order to increase a player's longevity in a PVP match. It's a good mechanic, as it prevents players from effectively getting killed in a few short seconds. This allows the opportunity for more tactical gameplay, letting players use more abilities, giving players time to react, heal, use terrain, etc.

    Overall valor is a good thing.

    That being said, damage over time effects already achieve many of the same goals as valor by their very nature. The damage is dealt out slowly over time, giving players time to react, heal, cleanse, use terrain, etc. Yet, in Rift, valor applies the same damage reduction to DoTs as it does to direct damage attacks.

    The only logic behind this that I can think of is "damage is damage, regardless of type". However, this is not true as taking 2.4k damage instantly from a deathblow critical strike and dying does not have the same effect as taking 2.4k of damage from a Dark Touch and dying. In the prior, the player dies immediately, in the latter it takes 16 additional seconds for the person to die, greatly increasing their time to live. Furthermore, most DoT damage can be cleansed, whereas instant damage clearly cannot.

    As it stands in live currently, DoT damage in PVP, with very few exceptions, is abysmal, hitting for amounts not that much different from autoattacks once you consider the amount of time in between DoT ticks.

    Valor has been in the game for many months now and Trion has not addressed this discrepancy. In earlier patches it was probably not seen as much of an issue because players typically had only 25-35% damage reduction due to valor, which was offset by speccing into things like the Archmage PVP soul, which increased damage to players by 15%+. These days, players sport 45-60% damage reduction, depending on spec, and the PVP souls are a distant memory.

    The interaction of DoT damage and Valor should be looked at, in my opinion. At the very least I think it would be informative to hear why Trion believes DoT damage should be treated the same way as direct damage with respect to the valor damage mitigation mechanic.
    The problem i see if dots did not get reduced damage from valor would be a mage applying 15k damage worth of dots in 4 gcd's then tabbing to all other targets in range, or even in 1 v 1 then simply running away. No class can do that much damage instantly with 4 global cool downs. It just wouldnt work.

  14. #14
    Rift Disciple Jack Burton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefe View Post
    The problem i see if dots did not get reduced damage from valor would be a mage applying 15k damage worth of dots in 4 gcd's then tabbing to all other targets in range, or even in 1 v 1 then simply running away. No class can do that much damage instantly with 4 global cool downs. It just wouldnt work.
    First, mage dots dont do 15k of damage. The actual number is less than half that. Second the damage that is incurred is over about 16 seconds.
    Lastly, I am questioning why Dots are given the SAME damage reduction as direct damage spells due to valor, and not questioning why they are affected by valor at all.

  15. #15
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefe View Post
    The problem i see if dots did not get reduced damage from valor would be a mage applying 15k damage worth of dots in 4 gcd's then tabbing to all other targets in range, or even in 1 v 1 then simply running away. No class can do that much damage instantly with 4 global cool downs. It just wouldnt work.
    The 15K damage would take 8,10,12, or even 16 secs to apply plus the 4 GCDs which would give people plenty of time to heal thorugh the ticks.

    But I can agree that making DOTs not effected by valor may render them OP. I'm saying this as a DOT mage. May be apply diminishing returns?.

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