+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 63
Like Tree11Likes

Thread: Everyone else is bad

  1. #16
    Ascendant ShalarLight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,852

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming View Post
    I never did get my Iron Donkey spell that does 30k AoE in a 60m radius around me whenever I die. "omg here comes the glass canon everyone just run"
    worms ?

    Also, I actually think you would start a thread about how that spell was perfectly fine given the warden nerfs.
    Last edited by ShalarLight; 04-04-2012 at 05:45 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    FYI Riftstalker running isn't even pve. .... You might as well call riftstalker running PVE.

  2. #17
    Rift Chaser Ming's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    313

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ShalarLight View Post
    worms ?

    Also, I actually think you would start a thread about how that spell was perfectly fine given the warden nerfs.
    Worms was awesome.

    not directed at ShalarLight but in general:

    I originally started this thread both to a) make fun of people who QQ about things being OP without even understanding the game mechanics, and b) to poke fun at Trion for listening to them. I was quite distracted at work while doing this and then the post wouldn't actually post, so I had to cut it to pieces to find whatever was preventing it from working. I think a lot was lost in translation as some folks seem to think i was seriously QQ'ing. I mean, in truth, those classes I mentioned DO give my spec a heap of trouble for those reasons- but the underlying point I would have made was- "..but that's life as an INQ." Or in other words every class has it's strengths and weaknesses.

    Sure there are (will always be) things that could use tweaking to keep PvP fun for everyone- but there are counters for most things. Those things without ANY counters in any soul combo for a calling are the valid QQs that need to be looked at- but for things with counters it's a L2P issue. This is precisely what makes PvP fun and interesting (at least for me) figuring out the nuts and bolts of each ability and then figuring out counter strategies- both with live play and soul combinations. Some souls combos are definitely impractical for PvP, but at the same time might have a niche use and in advanced PvP might actually do very well in coordination with a team.

    It's my hope Trion will focus more on creating new PvP content and addressing above mentioned "valid" concerns. Warden healing in PvP, to me, was no different than a NB/Assassin being able to rip me apart in 5 seconds in my INQ spec. It sucks to be on the receiving end of that, but on the other hand it sucks to be on the receiving end of a BoJ/BoD/SH/NR combo when you least expected it too. Healing is part of the PvP game.. and no people weren't invinceable by any stretch with warden HoT as they were.
    Last edited by Ming; 04-04-2012 at 08:28 AM.
    Formerly Scarecrowe... now Skullcluck. I know, I need to L2P, thanks. Save your breath.
    If you want a healer so bad why don't you roll one up?

  3. #18
    Ascendant ShalarLight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,852

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming View Post
    Worms was awesome.

    not directed at ShalarLight but in general:

    I originally started this thread both to a) make fun of people who QQ about things being OP without even understanding the game mechanics, and b) to poke fun at Trion for listening to them. I was quite distracted at work while doing this and then the post wouldn't actually post, so I had to cut it to pieces to find whatever was preventing it from working. I think a lot was lost in translation as some folks seem to think i was seriously QQ'ing. I mean, in truth, those classes I mentioned DO give my spec a heap of trouble for those reasons- but the underlying point I would have made was- "..but that's life as an INQ." Or in other words every class has it's strengths and weaknesses.

    Sure there are (will always be) things that could use tweaking to keep PvP fun for everyone- but there are counters for most things. Those things without ANY counters in any soul combo for a calling are the valid QQs that need to be looked at- but for things with counters it's a L2P issue. This is precisely what makes PvP fun and interesting (at least for me) figuring out the nuts and bolts of each ability and then figuring out counter strategies- both with live play and soul combinations. Some souls combos are definitely impractical for PvP, but at the same time might have a niche use and in advanced PvP might actually do very well in coordination with a team.

    It's my hope Trion will focus more on creating new PvP content and addressing above mentioned "valid" concerns. Warden healing in PvP, to me, was no different than a NB/Assassin being able to rip me apart in 5 seconds in my INQ spec. It sucks to be on the receiving end of that, but on the other hand it sucks to be on the receiving end of a BoJ/BoD/SH/NR combo when you least expected it too. Healing is part of the PvP game.. and no people weren't invinceable by any stretch with warden HoT as they were.
    good reply. A counter point though is that the changes are not because wardens are invincible, but in comparison to everyother healing spec in the game were very much imbalanced in terms of effectiveness in warfronts, in which the wardens were the leading edge, the most reliable across the board, and the hardest to counter when multiple wardens were stacked up. It is in comparison with the rest of the healing available that wardens were overpowered, and the other fix of buffing everyother form of healing to be as good as warden is just plain bad for pvp as nobody ever would die unless no healers were present. The fact that wardens require multiple mechanics from multiple sources to counter when alone, and how well multiple wardens covered any deficiencies of one warden alone or really any other healer pushed warden healing to extreme heights, to the point of only being able to kill healers when they made unforced mistakes or needing to totally out gear the healers or have more healers performing as well on your side to win the war of attrition creates the situation of something needing to be changed, as adding more healing to make other healing forms mean as much was a total illogical fix to the situation at hand, and would lead to very stagnant pvp.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    FYI Riftstalker running isn't even pve. .... You might as well call riftstalker running PVE.

  4. #19
    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    6,018

    Default

    Wardens are only OP because people have it stuck in their heads that healers are the ones that have to die first.
    Last edited by Ianto Jones; 04-04-2012 at 10:06 AM.

  5. #20
    Plane Walker oniku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    402

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    Wardens are only OP because people have it stuck in their heads that healers are the ones that have to die first.
    at the end of the match its usually aggressive melee players (like my self like a boss) are usually the ones with the most damage taken. but yea people always mark healers even if theyre in the back out of range. its really just the focus that counts. if you focused one at a time you'd be doing a lot better than trying to over extend and kill the healers right away
    s

  6. #21
    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    6,018

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oniku View Post
    at the end of the match its usually aggressive melee players (like my self like a boss) are usually the ones with the most damage taken. but yea people always mark healers even if theyre in the back out of range. its really just the focus that counts. if you focused one at a time you'd be doing a lot better than trying to over extend and kill the healers right away
    It depends on the type of match. In premade v. premade matches it's not uncommon for me to take the most damage (then again I'm an aggressive melee player that just happens to wear cloth), unless we've got an Inq on our team. Part of that also might have to do with the type of gear melee -- especially Warriors -- tend to run with. If your healer is taking fireballs for 1200 and you're taking them for 1900 then you're bound to wind up with more damage taken.

    But yeah. It's all about the focus fire, knowing whom to attack and when, and group composition. Wardens have ramp-up time. People in PUGs tend not to adapt to the enemy team. I guess part of that is the limited number of role slots. I'm rambling now.

  7. #22
    Rift Chaser Ming's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    313

    Default

    The role of the warden is healing. Multiple wardens crosshealing did that well. The role of any DPS class is the opposite, to kill people. Multiple DPS focusing on a target, not unlike multiple wardens crosshealing a target is also very effective.

    So.. how is there not a double standard in nerfing warden synergy and not DPS?

    I'll tell you why I think this happened. From a healing perspective the job is spelled out in the raid frames which very efficiently display who's taking damage and who't not, as well as who's debuffed and whether people are in range. Especially in PUG's but in general as well, there is little to no desire nor need for warden's to talk about who to focus healing on... it's in our face. Now look at it from the DPS perspective with no HUD showing the focus target, just the occasional marker. We all know how well people use markers especially in PUGs. Furthermore, even if there were a HUD of the enemy raid the dynamic would still be different in that healers don't proactively, as a collective, pick the focus (who get's healed)rather, they all heal the bars that are lowest.

    So the perception may be that healing is OP when in actuality it's just that healers have this big neon sign telling everyone who to heal when that's always there regardless of the situation. If enough DPS focuses on any person it doesn't matter how much HoT healing the person has, their overall DPS just has to spike over the person's overall HP. So say a guy has 8k health and takes 5k sustained DPS for 2 seconds (easily reachable realistic amount) it doesn't matter if there are 5000 HoTs on the person, they're still going to die in between HoT ticks. As for healers focusing cast ST heals in some sustained way, it just can't be done. The "healing OP'ness" problem is and always has been just getting DPS to focus efficiently. (to say nothing of using CC's/debuffs on clerics)

    But whatever.. bottom line is we need more WF's and PvP content. I don't even heal 70% of the time anyway because winning the WF for the kabillionth time while healing other people so they can have fun is .. well ya know kinda lame.
    Formerly Scarecrowe... now Skullcluck. I know, I need to L2P, thanks. Save your breath.
    If you want a healer so bad why don't you roll one up?

  8. #23
    Ascendant ShalarLight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,852

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming View Post
    The role of the warden is healing. Multiple wardens crosshealing did that well. The role of any DPS class is the opposite, to kill people. Multiple DPS focusing on a target, not unlike multiple wardens crosshealing a target is also very effective.

    So.. how is there not a double standard in nerfing warden synergy and not DPS?

    I'll tell you why I think this happened. From a healing perspective the job is spelled out in the raid frames which very efficiently display who's taking damage and who't not, as well as who's debuffed and whether people are in range. Especially in PUG's but in general as well, there is little to no desire nor need for warden's to talk about who to focus healing on... it's in our face. Now look at it from the DPS perspective with no HUD showing the focus target, just the occasional marker. We all know how well people use markers especially in PUGs. Furthermore, even if there were a HUD of the enemy raid the dynamic would still be different in that healers don't proactively, as a collective, pick the focus (who get's healed)rather, they all heal the bars that are lowest.

    So the perception may be that healing is OP when in actuality it's just that healers have this big neon sign telling everyone who to heal when that's always there regardless of the situation. If enough DPS focuses on any person it doesn't matter how much HoT healing the person has, their overall DPS just has to spike over the person's overall HP. So say a guy has 8k health and takes 5k sustained DPS for 2 seconds (easily reachable realistic amount) it doesn't matter if there are 5000 HoTs on the person, they're still going to die in between HoT ticks. As for healers focusing cast ST heals in some sustained way, it just can't be done. The "healing OP'ness" problem is and always has been just getting DPS to focus efficiently. (to say nothing of using CC's/debuffs on clerics)

    But whatever.. bottom line is we need more WF's and PvP content. I don't even heal 70% of the time anyway because winning the WF for the kabillionth time while healing other people so they can have fun is .. well ya know kinda lame.
    Because you are looking at healing vs dps when the change was based on healing vs healing. There is no double standard in effect. When one calling's damage is above and beyond what other dps is capable, that dps class is usually nerfed, unless it proves more meritous to buff everything else. In this case buffing everything else was out, and there is one clearly more powerful healing class. You are creating the double standard, not trion. Class dps is not nerfed because it is over power ing, it is nerfed because it is above and beyond what other classes can output. This is how you approach balance, and in doing so, other situations such as healing vs dmg take care of themselves, as they are easier to balance is everything is within shouting range of all the other builds designed with the same task in mind.

    You are the one basing your arguments on perception, a faulty perception. Your perception that this nerf is based on other people's perception that damage classes are unable to kill the warden. Your premise of the premise (which is rediculous alone) is absolutely wrong. The changes are being made to make warden more in line with the effectiveness of other healing builds, as warden in pvp is way way way above other classes effectiveness.
    Last edited by ShalarLight; 04-04-2012 at 12:39 PM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    FYI Riftstalker running isn't even pve. .... You might as well call riftstalker running PVE.

  9. #24
    Prophet of Telara
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,079

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming View Post
    So.. how is there not a double standard in nerfing warden synergy and not DPS?
    DPS has been nerfed, over and over again (Stormcaller, anyone?). So has CC.

    Edit - Also, Valor keeps getting increased.
    Last edited by Qaedyan; 04-04-2012 at 12:48 PM.

  10. #25
    Rift Chaser Ming's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    313

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ShalarLight View Post
    ...The changes are being made to make warden more in line with the effectiveness of other healing builds, as warden in pvp is way way way above other classes effectiveness.
    There's so much wrong here I don't know that I have the time to respond to it all. I'll just cut to the above.

    The nerf's are happening because the perception was that HPS, specifically multiple warden's crosshealing was exceeding DPS's ability to overcome it. That simple. Not because warden's were such better healers than everyone else and the other healers were jealous or some other nonsense.
    Formerly Scarecrowe... now Skullcluck. I know, I need to L2P, thanks. Save your breath.
    If you want a healer so bad why don't you roll one up?

  11. #26
    Rift Chaser Ming's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    313

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaedyan View Post
    DPS has been nerfed, over and over again (Stormcaller, anyone?). So has CC.
    Right, because in the case of the SC they were doing [EDIT]ridiculous amounts of damage.

    Keep it in perspective. Given one target with HPS healing and DPS damaging the question is whether one or the other is too strong.

    It was deemed HPS was too strong between wardens stacking up to 16 HoTs so they nerfed it. What is not considered is that when DPS does it's job right- NO AMOUNT of healing will save a target. You could cast a trillion-trillion x 10(23) health on a target with "X" health, but if a damage spike exceeds "X" the target dies because you can't heal a corpse... kapish?
    Last edited by TheSavvy1; 04-04-2012 at 06:13 PM. Reason: inappropriate language
    Formerly Scarecrowe... now Skullcluck. I know, I need to L2P, thanks. Save your breath.
    If you want a healer so bad why don't you roll one up?

  12. #27
    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    7,411

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming View Post
    I'll be transferring to Seastone shard soon and will be happy to show you my mad 51 Inq skillz.
    That.. Wasn't really an answer. Are you R40?
    ~Quiescent

  13. #28
    Rift Chaser Ming's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    313

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaros View Post
    That.. Wasn't really an answer. Are you R40?
    Yes. Really I am.
    Formerly Scarecrowe... now Skullcluck. I know, I need to L2P, thanks. Save your breath.
    If you want a healer so bad why don't you roll one up?

  14. #29
    Prophet of Telara
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,079

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming View Post
    Right, because in the case of the SC they were doing ridiculous amounts of damage.
    Healers heal "ridiculous" amounts of damage. And CC is too weak in this game to effectively lock-down a healer, so what are DPS players supposed to do? We can't all reroll healers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming View Post
    Keep it in perspective. Given one target with HPS healing and DPS damaging the question is whether one or the other is too strong.
    It is in perspective. The glass cannon specs were nerfed, CC was nerfed, Valor is given out like candy. Passive healing's getting nerfed because it's now comparative overkill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming View Post
    It was deemed HPS was too strong between wardens stacking up to 16 HoTs so they nerfed it. What is not considered is that when DPS does it's job right- NO AMOUNT of healing will save a target. You could cast a trillion-trillion x 10(23) health on a target with "X" health, but if a damage spike exceeds "X" the target dies because you can't heal a corpse... kapish?
    There aren't any burst specs anymore, they were nerfed. The damage spikes you're seeing are from multiple players. If multiple players are targetting the player you are healing, it should require more than HOT's on your part to counter it.
    Last edited by TheSavvy1; 04-04-2012 at 06:13 PM. Reason: inappropriate language

  15. #30
    Rift Chaser Ming's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    313

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaedyan View Post
    Healers heal "ridiculous" amounts of damage. And CC is too weak in this game to effectively lock-down a healer, so what are DPS players supposed to do? We can't all reroll healers.



    It is in perspective. The glass cannon specs were nerfed, CC was nerfed, Valor is given out like candy. Passive healing's getting nerfed because it's now comparative overkill.



    There aren't any burst specs anymore, they were nerfed. The damage spikes you're seeing are from multiple players. If multiple players are targetting the player you are healing, it should require more than HOT's on your part to counter it.
    I don't disagree entirely with any of this but having split my time in Rift PvP excusively between cleric HPS and DPS glass canon mode I honestly feel qualified to disagree with you on the point of healing in 1.7. As of right now I don't think it outweighs damage. There's still plenty of burst out there to do the job. 1.8 isn't the end of the world for healers by any stretch I'm not freaking out. I have seen people with three wardens spamming everything known to man to keep them up blown to bits plenty of times. There's just only so much incoming burst that can be healed with any amount of healing, period, but that threshold of burst does require being reached or it doesn't happen. A character has X amount of health, it's finite. If X + 1 burst comes in the character dies.
    Last edited by TheSavvy1; 04-04-2012 at 06:14 PM. Reason: quote fixed
    Formerly Scarecrowe... now Skullcluck. I know, I need to L2P, thanks. Save your breath.
    If you want a healer so bad why don't you roll one up?

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts